NBA Coast to Coast - Josh Howard better than Dirk?!

[mavsfan1000]

Defense Josh Howard
Hustle plays Josh Howard
Speed Josh Howard
Though Dirk has better stats, Josh is a better all-around player. Both are needed though for this team obviously as they are our 2 best players.

[Hydhypedplaya]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

The difference between Dirk and KG in defense is much less than the gap between KG and Dirk on offense is what I think people are trying to say.

I just dont understand all these people who say that Dirk is wayyyyyy better than KG on offense. I mean I seriously do not think they watch basketball beyond the Mavs games. Well I took both KG's and Dirk's best statistical season and compared them side by side, and as you can see on offense there is not much of a difference. Dirk scored 2pts more a game, and they both averaged 18shots a game. In this particular season KG had a better fg% than Dirk, but I'm not blind I know that Dirk is the better all around shooter. So yes I do give Dirk the nod on offense as being the better offensive player, but he is not that much better than KG. All the people who say that KG does not get doubled team seriously do not watch KG play much. All the people that say if KG was so great then he should have led his team out of the first round more than once do not realize that KG has never been surrounded by the talent that Dirk has through out his career. Dallas has been a great team for a REALLY REALLY long time, year after year Dallas has had a great team. The same way teams plan defensively for Dirk, they do the same exact thing for KG. Especially when KG played for Minny and was the only person who could hurt them in any way during a game. I mean when he played for Minny they didn't have to prepare for anybody on that team except for KG. So on the offensive end Dirk gets the nod, but KG is not far behind him. While on defense KG has always anchored his team on defense. The guy is just a spectacular defender and can guard all sorts of players, something Dirk could never even dream of doing. (Yes Dirk has become a better defender, but you still cant put him in the same sentence as KG on defense.) KG can and does change the game on the defensive end, he asserts his will on the game through his defense, and he is capable of doing the same thing on offense. (But Dirk is more capable than KG in asserting his will on the offensive end) There is a reason Boston became one of the best defensive teams in the league right when KG came to their team. Please people put your homerism aside and look at these two players objectively.

[Five-ofan]

btw overall playoff comparisons
career series records
dirk-8-7 kg-2-8
stats
ppg-25.1 22.3 edge dirk
rpg 10.8 13.4 edge kg
apg 2.2 5.0 edge kg
fg% 44.2 45.8 edge kg
3pt% 40.6 33.3 edge dirk
ft% 87.3 76.1 edge dirk
stl 1.4 1.4 edge dirk(they are both 1.3 something but dirks is higher)
bpg 1.1 1.9 edge kg
topg 2.2 3.5 edge dirk

so thats the fairly comprehensive stats comparison make of it what you will.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Defense Josh Howard
Hustle plays Josh Howard
Speed Josh Howard
Though Dirk has better stats, Josh is a better all-around player. Both are needed though for this team obviously as they are our 2 best players.

Spoken like a true politician.

The best evidence for your case is that there's no evidence. Put statistics in its rightful place.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Defense Josh Howard
Hustle plays Josh Howard
Speed Josh Howard
Though Dirk has better stats, Josh is a better all-around player. Both are needed though for this team obviously as they are our 2 best players.

the defense is actually fairly close. with josh being hellaciously overrated and dirk being seriously underrated. dirk has josh in literally everything but stls which josh has him by about a tenth there. dirk is a MUCH better passer and a MUCH better scorer. i dont see anything josh does signifigantly better besides his pet move(the right to left crossover that is just wicked)

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by Hydhypedplaya

I just dont understand all these people who say that Dirk is wayyyyyy better than KG on offense. I mean I seriously do not think they watch basketball beyond the Mavs games. Well I took both KG's and Dirk's best statistical season and compared them side by side, and as you can see on offense there is not much of a difference. Dirk scored 2pts more a game, and they both averaged 18shots a game. In this particular season KG had a better fg% than Dirk, but I'm not blind I know that Dirk is the better all around shooter. So yes I do give Dirk the nod on offense as being the better offensive player, but he is not that much better than KG. All the people who say that KG does not get doubled team seriously do not watch KG play much. All the people that say if KG was so great then he should have led his team out of the first round more than once do not realize that KG has never been surrounded by the talent that Dirk has through out his career. Dallas has been a great team for a REALLY REALLY long time, year after year Dallas has had a great team. The same way teams plan defensively for Dirk, they do the same exact thing for KG. Especially when KG played for Minny and was the only person who could hurt them in any way during a game. I mean when he played for Minny they didn't have to prepare for anybody on that team except for KG. So on the offensive end Dirk gets the nod, but KG is not far behind him. While on defense KG has always anchored his team on defense. The guy is just a spectacular defender and can guard all sorts of players, something Dirk could never even dream of doing. (Yes Dirk has become a better defender, but you still cant put him in the same sentence as KG on defense.) KG can and does change the game on the defensive end, he asserts his will on the game through his defense, and he is capable of doing the same thing on offense. (But Dirk is more capable than KG in asserting his will on the offensive end) There is a reason Boston became one of the best defensive teams in the league right when KG came to their team. Please people put your homerism aside and look at these two players objectively.

those numbers for dirk are wrong. he hasnt played 82 games in the playoffs for his career.

[birdsanctuary]

If they're right then the Mavs will win it all... for once I hope the talking heads are right... but they're usually wrong

[Hydhypedplaya]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

those numbers for dirk are wrong. he hasnt played 82 games in the playoffs for his career.

Umm according to NBA.COM they are correct...please do some research yourself before trying to take out all validity from my post.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by Hydhypedplaya

Umm according to NBA.COM they are correct...please do some research yourself before trying to take out all validity from my post.

i just went by basketballreference.com. theirs says 53 for his games played for some reason even though if you add it up it comes out to 82. odd. sorry

[fluid.forty.one]

I'm really not surprised that ESPN commentators are being taught basketball 501 now.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

**response to some1 saying somthing tht made no sense a cup of posts above. KG is always doubled and teams do always look for ways to stop him, but they never do because hes a great passer and if hes not doing it offensively then he is defensively.

No way. I've watched both players their entire careers and Garnett does nowhere near the damage that Dirk does to the opposing team's defensive schemes. Now, Garnett has been doubled for most of his career, but that's because Minnesota never had anyone else worth guarding. But Garnett's offensive game is just not nearly as deadly as Dirk's.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

No way. I've watched both players their entire careers and Garnett does nowhere near the damage that Dirk does to the opposing team's defensive schemes. Now, Garnett has been doubled for most of his career, but that's because Minnesota never had anyone else worth guarding. But Garnett's offensive game is just not nearly as deadly as Dirk's.

Yep. It would also be interesting to see how switching Dirk and KG in dallas would affect Jho and maybe even Harris' numbers. I'm almost certain Howard would not be getting all star like numbers if this were the case.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by endrity

When will people realize that KG's offense is average, not good at anything. When did anyone see him dominate in the low block. Please tell me. Please tell me what low block moves does he have, cause I've watched him for a couple of years and [have yet to see any. He has one, ONE, offensive move, a little turnaround on the left block 10-15 feet away. But it only extends at that. His shooting beyond that range is iffy. What Dirk does to opposing defenses is incomparable to Garnett. I never saw the Spurs change their whole philosophy to cover Garnett.

This man speaks the truth!

Fact is great players take over games by scoring. We have had one player in this league that made a reputation as a all-time great with defense, Bill Russell. And one could argue that he had so much offensive talent around that he never needed to score. The problem with KG is that he is good at every trade, a master at none. Which means in the 4th quarter you can only do so much. That is why Dirk has consistently been a great 4th quarter scorer and KG hasn't. And by the way Dirk's defense might not be as good as Garnett's but ever since Nash and Fin left, I rarely see Dirk put in a tough situation. The penetration we allowed back in the day made him look even worse than he really was. The Mavs have been a great defensive team under Avery so Dirk can't be that bad. And I have read scouts who say that the one which gives orders to the defense on the floor is Dirk, he points out the plays of the opposition and stuff. His physical limits will not allow him to be a great defender, but he has become a smarter one.

Regarding the Josh thing. It's not new. It's just people trying to find something new to say. They blame Dirk for last year, so in order to say that the Mavs are good this year you gotta reward someone else. Anyone that has seen the Mavs knows it's not true. More important than that, you could argue our success in the 1st half is just as much because of Devin. But he is not known nationally so you can't say him just yet.

Preach it!!

[kg_veteran]

Is this a Josh/Dirk comparison thread, or a Dirk/Garnett comparison thread? And where did all the newbies come from?

As to the Josh/Dirk comparison, whoever said that was a statement made for shock value is absolutely correct.

As to the Dirk/Garnett comparison, we've been down that road on this board several times over the years. I suppose I could link to one of those many threads, or I could just state my position this way: You can have Garnett; give me Dirk.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Hydhypedplaya

I just dont understand all these people who say that Dirk is wayyyyyy better than KG on offense. I mean I seriously do not think they watch basketball beyond the Mavs games. Well I took both KG's and Dirk's best statistical season and compared them side by side, and as you can see on offense there is not much of a difference. Dirk scored 2pts more a game, and they both averaged 18shots a game. In this particular season KG had a better fg% than Dirk, but I'm not blind I know that Dirk is the better all around shooter. So yes I do give Dirk the nod on offense as being the better offensive player, but he is not that much better than KG. All the people who say that KG does not get doubled team seriously do not watch KG play much. All the people that say if KG was so great then he should have led his team out of the first round more than once do not realize that KG has never been surrounded by the talent that Dirk has through out his career. Dallas has been a great team for a REALLY REALLY long time, year after year Dallas has had a great team. The same way teams plan defensively for Dirk, they do the same exact thing for KG.

No, they don't.

Especially when KG played for Minny and was the only person who could hurt them in any way during a game. I mean when he played for Minny they didn't have to prepare for anybody on that team except for KG. So on the offensive end Dirk gets the nod, but KG is not far behind him. While on defense KG has always anchored his team on defense. The guy is just a spectacular defender and can guard all sorts of players, something Dirk could never even dream of doing. (Yes Dirk has become a better defender, but you still cant put him in the same sentence as KG on defense.) KG can and does change the game on the defensive end, he asserts his will on the game through his defense, and he is capable of doing the same thing on offense. (But Dirk is more capable than KG in asserting his will on the offensive end) There is a reason Boston became one of the best defensive teams in the league right when KG came to their team.

Again, the stats you whipped out don't tell the whole story (or much of a story at all). And yes, I do watch Garnett on a regular basis, have for most of his career, and I'm telling you right now, on the scoring end of things, he doesn't have nearly the same impact that Dirk does. It's more than ppg, or fg%. It's like endrity said, when was the last time you saw the Spurs (or anyone else for that matter) throw their entire gameplan out the window and start from scratch to figure out how to handle Kevin Garnett? It's never happened. And please, if you're going to throw numbers at us, give us something that actually tells us how they impact the game. TS%, +/-, PER etc...

Please people put your homerism aside and look at these two players objectively.

I am, I have, and I'm telling you right now, when you measure the impact they both have on the game, they're about equal, but I'll give Dirk the edge. Why do we say Dirk is "waaaayyyy" better than Garnett on offense? Because he is. The way you say Dirk and Garnett can't be mentioned in the same sentence when it comes to defense, the same can be said about the two players on the offensive end. Only, as someone else mentioned earlier, I would actually say the gap between the two of them is smaller defensively than it is offensively.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Is this a Josh/Dirk comparison thread, or a Dirk/Garnett comparison thread? And where did all the newbies come from?

We're playing the Celtics tomorrow and a bunch of folks who never saw a T-Wolves game in their lives (unless they were playing against Boston) are pretending like they know everything about their had-been-slumping-franchise's Savior, Kevin Garnett...

[cjbcool]

Originally Posted by Bathouse Bear

Dirk is a better basketball player than Kevin Garnett.

He wins more, he scores more and he produces in the playoffs.

When the two of them went head to head in the 2002 playoffs Dirk averaged 30 points and 15 rebounds in leading the Mavs to a sweep.

Are you Serious?
What about the two other guys that averaged 20 points a game?
We had the better team. Steve Nash and Michael Finley contributed alot to that win. Both shot a better FG% than Dirk.

The Mavs beat the Twolves.

And what is this "he produces in the playoffs" crap. When we have needed Dirk to step up in the Play0ffs he hasnt. Dont get me wrong, in 05 he played great up until the Heat Series. And we won't talk about last year. Like it or not, Dirk will be judged like a Super Star, and Super stars shine when no one expects them to. They shine bright in the regular season, but in the playoffs they are blazing.

[cjbcool]

If they played one on one, I think Dirk will win.
But for the sake of argument:
Dirk is a Great Offensive weapon.
He is the best mismatch in the NBA. A 7 footer that can shoot anywhere on the court.
And yet, that same 7 footer is not a weapon on Defense.

Josh is a good offensive player and a good defenisive weapon.
He can strive on both sides of the ball. Not only does he average 21 points a game and grab almost 8 boards a game, but he guards the best player on the opposing team every game.

Dirk averages one more point and and one more board a game. So in that since, they put up similar Offensive numbers. What sets them aside is the Defense. For that very reason, Josh Howard is my favorite player on this team.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by cjbcool

If they played one on one, I think Dirk will win.
But for the sake of argument:
Dirk is a Great Offensive weapon.
He is the best mismatch in the NBA. A 7 footer that can shoot anywhere on the court.
And yet, that same 7 footer is not a weapon on Defense.

Josh is a good offensive player and a good defenisive weapon.
He can strive on both sides of the ball. Not only does he average 21 points a game and grab almost 8 boards a game, but he guards the best player on the opposing team every game.

Dirk averages one more point and and one more board a game. So in that since, they put up similar Offensive numbers. What sets them aside is the Defense. For that very reason, Josh Howard is my favorite player on this team.

If Josh Howard is your favorite player, that's fine.

If you're saying Josh is better player, then you just simply don't understand the game. Dirk is not only a better player, but they are not even close. Dirk is in another class. And again, it's just meaningless when you dole out stats like PPG. "Dirk averages one more point." Dirk is unguardable. Josh isn't. Josh Howard is a very good player, but he is not a franchise player. Dirk is.

And please, don't get me started on Josh's defense. I don't think there's a player in the league more overrated defensively than Josh Howard. He's not a bad defender by any means, but he's nothing special either. Frankly, as far as their positions are concerned, he's not much better a defender than Dirk.

[nowhereman]

i just LOVE poor statistical analysis. GAG.

Look, Dirk's a franchise guy. Like Kobe, Lebron, Boozer, Garnett - you're splitting hairs when you're picking between these players. They all have their liabilities and you have to scheme around any of them to have success.

I think Dirk's easier to scheme around, and that's why he's been so successful in his career. Hell, I could be a GM and throw a bunch of scrubs around Dirk, and his effect on spacing an offense, drawing attention, and being a floor leader would probably still make the team successful.

Garnett may have more individual talents overall, but to this point in his career it is evident that he is harder to build around than Nowitzki. That's why i'd take Dirk over pretty much any player in the league not named Lebron James.

[nowhereman]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

If you're saying Josh is better player, then you just simply don't understand the game. Dirk is not only a better player, but they are not even close.

spot on. there's just no other way to explain it. either you get it or you don't, but it's good to see that at least to some other people here it's pretty obvious what's ACTUALLY happening in the game.

[endrity]

Originally Posted by cjbcool

Are you Serious?
What about the two other guys that averaged 20 points a game?
We had the better team. Steve Nash and Michael Finley contributed alot to that win. Both shot a better FG% than Dirk.

The Mavs beat the Twolves.

And what is this "he produces in the playoffs" crap. When we have needed Dirk to step up in the Play0ffs he hasnt. Dont get me wrong, in 05 he played great up until the Heat Series. And we won't talk about last year. Like it or not, Dirk will be judged like a Super Star, and Super stars shine when no one expects them to. They shine bright in the regular season, but in the playoffs they are blazing.

please don't start this because it clearely says you never watched the t-wolves. That year we beat them, KG had the best team outside the 04 one. In case you don't know I will tell you. They had Billups, who also averaged about 25 that series. They had Wally in his All Star year, giving them about 20 a game with deadly outside shooting. They had a guy name Anthony Peeler, who you probably have no idea who he is, who was at the time one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. And they also had, if I am not forgetting, Earvin Johnson at center, a typical tough minded defensive center.

You know what happened in that series. Anytime it was close, the Mavs would throw the ball to Dirk in the mid post, kinda like they do now. KG was on him everytime. And Dirk schooled the man. It's that simple.Maybe it's hard for you to understand how a white European can do that to an all-powerful and athletic american 7footer but he did, and has done it to the rest of the league. Since you saw Bird play, I suppose you are not that young, you should understand this better than anyone.

p.s Spiral, thnx for the propz

[aexchange]

i think the same people who are saying josh howard is a better player than dirk were the same people saying michael finley was a better player than dirk.

i thought they smoked crack back in the day, and i can see that nothing has changed. to say howard is a better player than dirk is laughable, when quite frankly he hasn't eclipsed finley's best season as a mav. gotta love blind homers. to be honest, i'm not even sure that howard is the mavs second best player anymore because in a season or two we may be comparing devin harris to dirk.

[LSMF]

Everyone that's not a mavs fan justs hates Dirk, I know people that don't even watch basketball but they hate dirk lol, there is no way in hell that Josh Howard is better than Dirk, Josh Howard is nowhere to be found in the third quarter, Josh can't pass for sh*t, I even think Josh has low basketball IQ(You ever seen what he does on a 3 on 1 fastbreak?!! Unspeakable just go see it for yourself). I love Josh but he still has work to do and so do the rest of the mavs

[mary]

Originally Posted by cjbcool

If they played one on one, I think Dirk will win.
But for the sake of argument:
Dirk is a Great Offensive weapon.
He is the best mismatch in the NBA. A 7 footer that can shoot anywhere on the court.
And yet, that same 7 footer is not a weapon on Defense.

Josh is a good offensive player and a good defenisive weapon.
He can strive on both sides of the ball. Not only does he average 21 points a game and grab almost 8 boards a game, but he guards the best player on the opposing team every game.

Dirk averages one more point and and one more board a game. So in that since, they put up similar Offensive numbers. What sets them aside is the Defense. For that very reason, Josh Howard is my favorite player on this team.

Dirk's having a down year (statistically) and Josh is having a career year, Dirk is STILL outproducing Howard, and yet they are offensively a wash?

In case you haven't been paying attention, Dirk could average 25-30 a game if the Mavs wanted to ride him in every game...but that doesn't help the team any.

Dirk's a FAARRRRRR better passer and decision maker than JHO is.

I love Josh Howard, but he hasn't sniffed Dirk's numbers yet in his career.

Besides that, JHO is an offensive midget in the fourth quarter, when it matters the most.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by cjbcool

Are you Serious?
What about the two other guys that averaged 20 points a game?
We had the better team. Steve Nash and Michael Finley contributed alot to that win. Both shot a better FG% than Dirk.

The Mavs beat the Twolves.

And what is this "he produces in the playoffs" crap. When we have needed Dirk to step up in the Play0ffs he hasnt. Dont get me wrong, in 05 he played great up until the Heat Series. And we won't talk about last year. Like it or not, Dirk will be judged like a Super Star, and Super stars shine when no one expects them to. They shine bright in the regular season, but in the playoffs they are blazing.

you must not consider kg a superstar.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by cjbcool

If they played one on one, I think Dirk will win.
But for the sake of argument:
Dirk is a Great Offensive weapon.
He is the best mismatch in the NBA. A 7 footer that can shoot anywhere on the court.
And yet, that same 7 footer is not a weapon on Defense.

Josh is a good offensive player and a good defenisive weapon.
He can strive on both sides of the ball. Not only does he average 21 points a game and grab almost 8 boards a game, but he guards the best player on the opposing team every game.

Dirk averages one more point and and one more board a game. So in that since, they put up similar Offensive numbers. What sets them aside is the Defense. For that very reason, Josh Howard is my favorite player on this team.

when does josh guard the opposing teams best player? I have pretty much never seen this though it gets thrown out there all the time. If the opposing teams best player is a pg or small 2, devin guards him. If its a big 2 or 3 eddie jones guards him. if its a 4 or small 5 dirk guards him and if its a big 5 damp guards him(talking about in crunch time).

[Five-ofan]

one other thing about dirk is, his ability to propel his teams to wins is rivaled by very few people in the nba(not including kg) look at the 04-05 season

the mavs went 58-24 with an aging michael finley who would be dropped the next season being the second leading scorer at 15.6 ppg while playing in 64 games. we only had 3 guys who scored more than 6 a game play at least 65 games. he put up 26.1-9.7-3.1-1.5-1.2. The ONLY time kg got a team to 58 wins, cassell and sprewell played 81 and 82 games respectively and cassell put up 19.8-7.3-3.3

kg had an amazing year that year, but its been proven that for kg to have a great year team record wise he needs at least one other great player and another star after that. dirk doesnt have to have that.

[AxdemxO]

OK this is my final opinion. Neither has won it all...doesn't matter who got closer. KG has the same or better stats for his career and playoffs. He hasnt had the player around him that Dirk did and the one time he did they made it to the WCF. Both are great players, but IMO KG is still the better player, the only way that Dirk will pass him is to win it all,or he can get close this year by taking his team further because KG has players around him now

[AxdemxO]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

one other thing about dirk is, his ability to propel his teams to wins is rivaled by very few people in the nba(not including kg) look at the 04-05 season

the mavs went 58-24 with an aging michael finley who would be dropped the next season being the second leading scorer at 15.6 ppg while playing in 64 games. we only had 3 guys who scored more than 6 a game play at least 65 games. he put up 26.1-9.7-3.1-1.5-1.2. The ONLY time kg got a team to 58 wins, cassell and sprewell played 81 and 82 games respectively and cassell put up 19.8-7.3-3.3

kg had an amazing year that year, but its been proven that for kg to have a great year team record wise he needs at least one other great player and another star after that. dirk doesnt have to have that.

Ohh come on..ur making it sound like tht Cassell and Spree...and No1 esle around KG are better then what Dirk has/had around him. Nash, Fin, Stack, Jet, Josh, even some guys tht dont seem too important like KVH, LaFrents, NVE...

Cassell and Spree are not great players they are good players...they were just good at tht stage

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

OK this is my final opinion. Neither has won it all...doesn't matter who got closer. KG has the same or better stats for his career and playoffs. He hasnt had the player around him that Dirk did and the one time he did they made it to the WCF. Both are great players, but IMO KG is still the better player, the only way that Dirk will pass him is to win it all,or he can get close this year by taking his team further because KG has players around him now

you notice that when he has better players around him how his numbers have dropped? theres a reason for that. its harder to put up numbers when you have better players around you. And he has signifigantly more talent on his current team than any in dirks career.

also the whole neither has won it so it doesnt matter argument is quite frankly moronic. yes there is a difference between losing in the first round and losing in the finals. yes there is a difference between losing in the second round and not making the playoffs. if you cant see that, you are quite frankly not worth listening too.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Ohh come on..ur making it sound like tht Cassell and Spree...and No1 esle around KG are better then what Dirk has/had around him. Nash, Fin, Stack, Jet, Josh, even some guys tht dont seem too important like KVH, LaFrents, NVE...

Cassell and Spree are not great players they are good players...they were just good at tht stage

cassell was arguably the best pg in the nba that year. and dirk has been better without nash and fin. Stack has been absolutely terrible since hes been in dallas. Are we seriously counting kvh and lafrentz? You might want to do some research on who garnett played with in minny when he was getting his ass handed to him in the first round(or missing the playoffs) every year if you are gonna mention guys like that.

Cassell, spree, wally world, gugliotta, marbury, billups, brandon, joe smith

[AxdemxO]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

cassell was arguably the best pg in the nba that year. and dirk has been better without nash and fin. Stack has been absolutely terrible since hes been in dallas. Are we seriously counting kvh and lafrentz? You might want to do some research on who garnett played with in minny when he was getting his ass handed to him in the first round(or missing the playoffs) every year if you are gonna mention guys like that.

Cassell, spree, wally world, gugliotta, marbury, billups, brandon, joe smith

Yes he has had some good players around him, but come on Was Billups the player he is now, was Marbury,

Overall Dirk has always had better players around him then KG, and this yera its very close because Yes PP and Allen are really good, but after that there isnt much...we are still deeper. Josh, Jet, Stack, Harris, even Damp.

Numbers go down because he lets other players play, same would happen for Dirk. KG focuses more on D now and when he has to he can still get his offense.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Yes he has had some good players around him, but come on Was Billups the player he is now, was Marbury,

Overall Dirk has always had better players around him then KG, and this yera its very close because Yes PP and Allen are really good, but after that there isnt much...we are still deeper. Josh, Jet, Stack, Harris, even Damp.

Numbers go down because he lets other players play, same would happen for Dirk. KG focuses more on D now and when he has to he can still get his offense.

first off marbury was GREAT when he was in minny. Its why he got the insane deal he got. Second why do you mention stackhouse like hes any good aside from the idea that he used to be a star? In which case you cant point to kgs teammates not being at their absolute peaks when aside from josh none of dirks teammates are either? Billups was a talented guy that was just starting to put it together when he was in minny. Much like devin harris. Damp=rasho. jet<cassell Josh>spree though its fairly close. Dirks had slightly more talent around him throughout his career until this year but the difference has never been remotely proportional to the difference in the records. that has always been my point. While dirk and kg both had advantages over each other in different areas, the area that dirk has over kg(being a flat out dominant scorer that cant be singled ever) is more important than any edge kg has in his "all around" arsenal because the things that kg does well are more easily replicated by lesser players than the things dirk does.

[cjbcool]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Frankly, as far as their positions are concerned, he's not much better a defender than Dirk.

Did you say that?

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by cjbcool

Did you say that?

he was comparing howard and dirk and hes right.

[cjbcool]

So Defensively, Howard and Dirk are about the same?

[AxdemxO]

Wow Dirk is not even average at D and we wont even talk about their positions because Dirk can barely guard any1 at the 4. Howard is not this great defender either but hes def. better than Dirk at his position and probably at 2 others. Howard has successfully guarded 1, 2, and 3.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by cjbcool

So Defensively, Howard and Dirk are about the same?

yes, with josh having maybe a slight edge. and axdemx0 im through arguing with you. You have nothing but recycled blanket points that are parroted time and again by talking heads.

ill point this out though, the mavs best defensive position is the 4 statistically. We all know who gets the majority of minutes at the 4. The mavs second worst defensive position is the 3. we all know who gets the majority of the minutes there. This isnt perfect but it is some food for thought. taken from this site. http://www.82games.com/0708/0708DAL5.HTM

[nikeball]

Originally Posted by cjbcool

Are you Serious?
What about the two other guys that averaged 20 points a game?
We had the better team. Steve Nash and Michael Finley contributed alot to that win. Both shot a better FG% than Dirk.

The Mavs beat the Twolves.

And what is this "he produces in the playoffs" crap. When we have needed Dirk to step up in the Play0ffs he hasnt. Dont get me wrong, in 05 he played great up until the Heat Series. And we won't talk about last year. Like it or not, Dirk will be judged like a Super Star, and Super stars shine when no one expects them to. They shine bright in the regular season, but in the playoffs they are blazing.

So...anybody who doesn't "blaze" in the playoffs isn't a superstar? People who can't get out of the first round usually mean they dont "blaze" enough. Sorry Tmac (even though he really isnt a superstar), KG, Kobe (post Shaq), or maybe they didn't shine brightly enough to win a championship. Sorry anyone not named Tim Duncan or Shaq.


cjbcool....your post contradicts itself. In the first half you say that Teams win basketball series (Mavs beat TWolves)..and then in second half you say that superstars win series (Dirk didnt beat Heat)..which is it?