Bush: a paragon of truth

[LRB]

Originally posted by: sturm und drang
LRB wrote:

"And since you yourself term them as "white" or harmless lies, if they are indeed lies, I don't even see the point of making an issue of something so trivial."

Oh, so where John Kerry was on Christmas Eve in 1968 is critical, but Bush's relationship to the villanous mastermind behind the biggest corporate scandal in American history isn't.

Okey dokey.

You're the won who characterized Bush's statements as being white lies not me. I think Bush's relationship to Lay does have some relevance. But there is no evidence that I've seen of any inappropriate relaitonship. Bush does admit to knowing Lay and to having worked with him closely in the past but denies any fore knowledge of the Enron scandal or of trying to get Lay off or to cover up for Lay. Since there is no compelling evidence that I know of to indicate otherwise I don't see how pursuing this unless such information is made available.

Now with Kerry, kerry has made numerous statements about his Vietnam service as part of his present campaign and past political activities that are being challenged for their veracity. There is substantial evidence against Kerry and precious little for him. However maybe Kerry or some democrat will bring enough evidence forward to show Kerry is telling the truth. I highly doubt this, but who knows it could happen. However until it does happen this is an issue that is important in respect to Kerry's character and his credibility for honesty as a politician.

[Mavdog]

You need to do some reading on just how the energy markets were deregulated, allowing for the market manipulation/trades that were the basis of the enron debacle. It has Republican hands all over it, from Phil and Wendy Gramm to Newt Gingrich to the State Commissioners appointed by George Bush as Governor who took a hands off approach.

Start with Wendy Gramm and FERC.

Enron didn't happen in a vacuum.

But why am I telling you, all you'll do is want to argue the definition of "energy", then "markets" and finally "deregulation".

[LRB]

Having worked in the energy trading business and actually programed the applications which facilitated energy trades I do know a little about that situation. And you have nothing but innuendo that any of the people that you mentioned, especially Bush knowingly participated in a conspiracy to manipulate the energy markets illegally and/or in Ken Lay's favor. If anything the failure was on the state administration side. Texas has controlls which would help prevent this, or at the very least limit it and help assure that whoever attempted it would almost certainly be caught. California was lacking in those controls. However that was more a state issue rather than a federal. I fail to see how Texas state commissioners appointed by Bush could possibly have had anything to do with California market manipulation though.

[Mavdog]

Texas is the only state in the Union that is not a part of the power grid. There was no energy manipulation in Texas.

Didn't know that huh?

Those who did manipulate the markets, who were first given the OK by FERC, were here in Texas.

Explain how "state administration" could have seen the trading of energy outside their state to be resold inside their state at a huge profit? How about the withholding of energy to one state by stopping the transmission from out of that state, thereby forcing the markets to pay more for that same electricity? These were the actions of Enron.

You don't know about the shortsighted decisions by FERC (a federal agency BTW) which started this whole unseemly episode, do you?

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: Mavdog
Texas is the only state in the Union that is not a part of the power grid.

I'm confused by this statement. Why would we be in either the Eastern or Western power grid? Geographically speaking, Texas should logically be seperate. There isn't another state with a large population near us.

http://www.usdieselengines.com/US%20Power%20Grid.htm

[Mavdog]

Look at the map on your link Max, Texas power grid is seperate from the rest of the country. It doesn't hook up to anywhere else.

Why should "Texas be logically be seperate"? It is seperate just due to our desire to be such,. sorta a manifestation of the Texas mindset of, well, just being Texan. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[Max Power]

Your initial statement made it seem like there was a NATIONAL power grid that we weren't a part of. THAT would have seemed odd. But there are two other grids, an Eastern and a Western one. So back to my initial question - why would we be in either the Eastern or Western power grid?

Cause it sure sounds like you are seeing a conspiracy where there isn't one.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: Max Power
Your initial statement made it seem like there was a NATIONAL power grid that we weren't a part of. THAT would have seemed odd. But there are two other grids, an Eastern and a Western one. So back to my initial question - why would we be in either the Eastern or Western power grid?

Cause it sure sounds like you are seeing a conspiracy where there isn't one.

Yes, there is a national power grid (deliniated on a regional basis) and yes we are not a part of it.

Why would we be a part of the national grid? Actually why are we not. A conspircay? Yes, in that we Texans are a bit independent minded. This was a decision made years ago when the national grid was proposed and set up. Texas set up it own org "ERCOT" to govern the Texas grid and they won't allow outsiders to crash the party.

When the blackout occured a year ago in the midwest the decision to not be in the national grid looked like a good one. When the energy traders manipulated the western states and squeezed (raped?) the consumers the decision looked like a good one.

I can't say that the "go it alone" mindset willl hurt us, tho if we see a supply issue (unlikely as we have surplus supply) we will not have anywhere to get additional juice.

OTOH, ERCOT has been characterized as a pawn of the producers, who have been accused on some price manipulation, although on a much smaller scale than what Enron did out west a few years ago.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Mavdog
Texas is the only state in the Union that is not a part of the power grid. There was no energy manipulation in Texas.

Didn't know that huh?

Those who did manipulate the markets, who were first given the OK by FERC, were here in Texas.

Explain how "state administration" could have seen the trading of energy outside their state to be resold inside their state at a huge profit? How about the withholding of energy to one state by stopping the transmission from out of that state, thereby forcing the markets to pay more for that same electricity? These were the actions of Enron.

You don't know about the shortsighted decisions by FERC (a federal agency BTW) which started this whole unseemly episode, do you?

What in the hell are you trying to say mavdog. You rambled all over the place and only seemed to contradict yourself in saying that the texas state administrators had nothing to do with the manipulation as you had earlier claimed.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: LRB
What in the hell are you trying to say mavdog. You rambled all over the place and only seemed to contradict yourself in saying that the texas state administrators had nothing to do with the manipulation as you had earlier claimed.

They are two different issues. There's the price manipulation in the west (thanks to Enron) and there's the issues here in Texas that are seperate (we aren't in the grid sending power across state lines).

To see what Enron was able to do outside of Texas in the western US, look at FERC.

To see what Texas producers have done, look at ERCOT.

I thought you said you "know..about the situation"?

Here's a tidbit about ERCOT:

"ERCOT Scandal Just One of Five Utility Issues Sunset Commission Needs to Consider, Consumer Groups Say

Commission to Hear Testimony Tuesday on Effectiveness
Of Public Utility Commission and the Office of Public Utility Counsel

AUSTIN – Texas consumer advocacy groups say the ongoing Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) scandal should not shift attention from other critical consumer issues when the Sunset Advisory Commission begins its review of the Public Utility Commission (PUC) tomorrow.

The consumer groups identified additional reforms needed to protect the state's nine million customers from abuses by electric utilities.

"The Sunset Commission needs to act now to protect residential and other small consumers in the electric market,” said Tom "Smitty" Smith, director of Public Citizen’s Texas Office "We've seen a dramatic increase in electric bills. And key price protections in both electric and telephone service are set to expire next year. Consumers also ought to be concerned about a perilous proposal to abolish the Office of Public Utility Counsel and other rollbacks of consumer protections.”

Rate Protections Need Consideration

Since deregulation began two and a half years ago, the average monthly electric bill for residential electric customers who have not switched providers has increased 22 to 34 percent, depending on where customers live, said Tim Morstad of Consumers Union's Southwest Office. Eighty-five percent of residential customers in areas open to competition are paying these higher rates.

and then there's the infamous Enron debacle and FERC's assistance to Enron:

The bigger issue, however, has to do with a ruling handed down by FERC on Nov. 1, 2000, related to the sky-high wholesale power prices that wreaked havoc in much of the state between May and October of that year. Then Gov. Gray Davis, along with dozens of other state officials, charged that energy companies conspired to drive up electricity prices in the state by using a variety of schemes to game the market. The November 2000 investigation by FERC was the first probe into California's power crisis. The commission conducted a second investigation in mid-2001.

During the 2000 investigation, the Republican dominated FERC investigated the issue of high electricity prices and said the wholesale market structure in California is "seriously flawed" but FERC found no significant evidence that power sellers or providers manipulated prices. Instead, the report blamed the state's mandated market structure for the summer's power shortages and rising prices.

We have found that Enron did manipulate prices. repeatedly.

[LRB]

So you agree that Texas state regulators had nothing to do with energy manipulation in the West. Fine, next time not mix things up so much that it's hard to tell which issue that you're talking about.

Pretty much everyone agrees that Enron did tons of crooked things. So no big news story there.

I'm still not sure what you're getting at about Ercot. You make obscure reference and beat all around the damn bush but really don't come out and say what you mean. What exactly is the problem that you personally have with ERCOT or do you even have a problem with it?

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: Mavdog

Yes, there is a national power grid (deliniated on a regional basis) and yes we are not a part of it.

From the website I posted. Do you have different information?

It is important to note that there is no "national power grid" in the United States. In fact, the continental United States is divided into three main power grids:
The Eastern Interconnected System, or the Eastern Interconnect
The Western Interconnected System, or the Western Interconnect
The Texas Interconnected System, or the Texas Interconnect

[Mavdog]

We really aren't disagreeing Max, my point is that the rest of the country is interconnected (the eastern and the western as you have shown) and then there's Texas. we aren't connected to the rest of the US.

[Drbio]

There.Is.No.NATIONAL.Power.Grid.


period.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Mavdog
We really aren't disagreeing Max, my point is that the rest of the country is interconnected (the eastern and the western as you have shown) and then there's Texas. we aren't connected to the rest of the US.

That's a blatant mistruth Mavdog. We are connected to the rest of the US both directly and indirectly. However there is no single national powergrid. There are only a series of independent regional power grids with limited connections between them. Even Ercot is madeup of 2 major regional power grids, the north and south, with limited connections between them. Further more it's higly impractical for a power plant in Florida to ship power to Ohio even if they were on the same power grid. The loss of electricty over that distance would be great.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: LRB

That's a blatant mistruth Mavdog. We are connected to the rest of the US both directly and indirectly. However there is no single national powergrid. There are only a series of independent regional power grids with limited connections between them. Even Ercot is madeup of 2 major regional power grids, the north and south, with limited connections between them. Further more it's higly impractical for a power plant in Florida to ship power to Ohio even if they were on the same power grid. The loss of electricty over that distance would be great.

No, the Texas power grid is isolated:

"[b]ERCOT is a single point of control bulk electrical Interconnection, located totally within the state of Texas.

"FERC's jurisdiction is limited because the ERCOT system is isolated from the rest of the nation's power grid with the
exception of two non-synchronous interconnections."

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Mavdog

No, the Texas power grid is isolated:

"[b]ERCOT is a single point of control bulk electrical Interconnection, located totally within the state of Texas.


"FERC's jurisdiction is limited because the ERCOT system is isolated from the rest of the nation's power grid with the
exception of two non-synchronous interconnections."

You're speaking out of your ass agains Mavdog. You post above just confirms that Ercot IS connected via "two non-sychronous interconnections.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: Drbio
There.Is.No.NATIONAL.Power.Grid.


period.

OK, I will never, ever again use the phrase "National Power grid" without adding the qualification that it is broken into the 3: western, the eastern and the Texas electrical grids.

notice, FERC uses the phrase "nation's power grid" as shown below...

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: LRB

You're speaking out of your ass agains Mavdog. You post above just confirms that Ercot IS connected via "two non-sychronous interconnections.

Do you know what that means? guess not...
Power doesn't go across the connections unless they are asynchronous, producing the same frequency of alternating current.

non-synchronous interconnections don't produce the same frequency, and don't share power.

and that's you electrical connectivity lesson for today...

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Mavdog

Do you know what that means? guess not...
Power doesn't go across the connections unless they are asynchronous, producing the same frequency of alternating current.

non-synchronous interconnections don't produce the same frequency, and don't share power.

and that's you electrical connectivity lesson for today...

Mavdog you can be so dense at times and yet at other times you can be downright idiotic. Do you have reading comprehension level about 3rd grade? 1st of all FERC's statement says that the Eastern and Western grid are interconnected via these 2 nonsychronous interconnections. That is saying, that electrity can be passed between EROCT and either the Western or Eastern grid system. the nonsychronous part means that this connection is not always open, but has to be flipped purposefully to transfer the electricity. I know this because I've programmed the logic to communicate trades with the midwest, which is not part of ERCOT. Because there is some degree of interconnection among the majority of the grids in the interconntinental US it could called the national grid. However it does not work with sharing the same way you local grids do. Also ERCOT's sharing is different that that between the Western and Eastern grid systems. But sharing does take place.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: LRB
Mavdog you can be so dense at times and yet at other times you can be downright idiotic. Do you have reading comprehension level about 3rd grade? 1st of all FERC's statement says that the Eastern and Western grid are interconnected via these 2 nonsychronous interconnections. That is saying, that electrity can be passed between EROCT and either the Western or Eastern grid system. the nonsychronous part means that this connection is not always open, but has to be flipped purposefully to transfer the electricity. I know this because I've programmed the logic to communicate trades with the midwest, which is not part of ERCOT. Because there is some degree of interconnection among the majority of the grids in the interconntinental US it could called the national grid. However it does not work with sharing the same way you local grids do. Also ERCOT's sharing is different that that between the Western and Eastern grid systems. But sharing does take place.

You state above "this connection is not always open, but has to be flipped purposefully to transfer the electricity".

Thanks for proving my point.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Mavdog

You state above "this connection is not always open, but has to be flipped purposefully to transfer the electricity".

Thanks for proving my point.

Which point was that, the one that shows you make idiotic posts? Or the one that you refuse to admit that you're wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: LRB Which point was that, the one that shows you make idiotic posts? Or the one that you refuse to admit that you're wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

I'd say the point that you argue about crap and then at the same time show that you don't know what you're arguing about. But then what else is new?

Do you argue with yourself about what clothes you'll wear everyday?

The Texas grid does not pass electricty to other parts of the country. To do so, the grid manager (ERCOT) must do so manually. It isn't done.

Now, the point that was made before that you have yet to understand is that the deregulation of the electrical utilities, which was conceived by Phil Gramm and endorsed by Newt Gingrich, pushed through by a republican dominated FERC, has led to manipulation of the energy markets and the raping of consumers. Guess as you've ignored these facts you have no comeback to this.

Second, ERCOT has multiple scandals of its own that taint its reputation to the point that there is talk of the Sunset Commission ending its reign. Guess who appointed the majority of members? Could it be, yes, the republicans?

So you can continue with your love for the word "idiot" but from where I sit as you've failed to understand the blame for the problems in energy deregulation, the impetus and fault that lands on the republicans for this anti-consumer initiative that has cost many billions of dollars, the phrase sure fits you best. like a glove.

[Drbio]

Just to jump in here a second....We have our own electrical generation plant here on campus. In addition, due to the size of campus we use external electrical as well . We have a full time electrical engineer here who monitors the use and relationship between our system and the grid. He used to be a regulator in the field and was a good hire. I asked him specifically these two questions:

1. Is there a national grid?
2. Is Texas connected to any other state?


1. No. He spoke in a very detailed manner but advised that there are several grids that are connected in various ways. And I was admittedly confused about much of what he said.

2. Yes. Texas has several power generation sites (Ex. Reliant's Jewitt plant) that generate and place power on the grid. Supply is based on real time demand. Even we have the ability to sell excess to the grid (although we do not due to power management systems). Texas has the ability to send power to other states via grid connections however. In the case of California, Texas indirectly piggybacked power to California by supplying it to New Mexico who provided it on to Cali. Again...some of it was confusing....interesting, but confusing.


Now back to our regularly scheduled pissin' match.....

[Drbio]

Second, ERCOT has multiple scandals of its own that taint its reputation to the point that there is talk of the Sunset Commission ending its reign. Guess who appointed the majority of members? Could it be, yes, the republicans?

OOPS...just saw this. Now I understand. It isn't facts that are at issue....it's the opportunity to make a political stab. I see now.

[LRB]

The Texas grid does not pass electricty to other parts of the country. To do so, the grid manager (ERCOT) must do so manually. It isn't done.

What the hell kind of sense are you trying to make here? You contradict yourself back and forth. 1st it doesn't pass electricity. Then it does pass electricity manually. Then an ambigious it isn't done, whatever the hell you mean by that. If you wouldn't write in such an unclear and obtuse manner maybe someone might be able to understand you. As it is now, heaven only know what you meant by that gibberish above.

Now, the point that was made before that you have yet to understand is that the deregulation of the electrical utilities, which was conceived by Phil Gramm and endorsed by Newt Gingrich, pushed through by a republican dominated FERC, has led to manipulation of the energy markets and the raping of consumers. Guess as you've ignored these facts you have no comeback to this.

If you would write clearly and make sure that you clearly denote when you're changing topic maybe a reasonable person could make heads or tails our of your meandering writings. It's a big jump to go from a government agency sponsor by a couple of republicans and with several members nominated by a republican president to claiming that they are ripping people off. As for me ignoring the facts, hell I can't even tell when you change subject, since it happens midsentence usually. Put you've presented no facts that I can see in reqards to this point, just a lot of biased opinion. Maybe a congressional document showing who originally sponsored the bill to create FERC might work as facts. Or how about a record of who voted for and against in in the House and Senate listing name, state, and party. Finally where's the proof that people are being ripped off. You offer only vague references. How about some specifics. Documents on the complaints would be a good start.

Second, ERCOT has multiple scandals of its own that taint its reputation to the point that there is talk of the Sunset Commission ending its reign. Guess who appointed the majority of members? Could it be, yes, the republicans?

A lot of innuendo and zero facts here. How about some documents detailing these "scandals". And members of what are you talking about. If you're accusing the Repulicans or anyone for that matter of corruption, how about some proof other than your or some other partisan's unsupported say so. Surely there is some record of that accusations and of the actions or lack of actions in quesiton.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: Drbio
Just to jump in here a second....We have our own electrical generation plant here on campus. In addition, due to the size of campus we use external electrical as well . We have a full time electrical engineer here who monitors the use and relationship between our system and the grid. He used to be a regulator in the field and was a good hire. I asked him specifically these two questions:

1. Is there a national grid?
2. Is Texas connected to any other state?


1. No. He spoke in a very detailed manner but advised that there are several grids that are connected in various ways. And I was admittedly confused about much of what he said.

2. Yes. Texas has several power generation sites (Ex. Reliant's Jewitt plant) that generate and place power on the grid. Supply is based on real time demand. Even we have the ability to sell excess to the grid (although we do not due to power management systems). Texas has the ability to send power to other states via grid connections however. In the case of California, Texas indirectly piggybacked power to California by supplying it to New Mexico who provided it on to Cali. Again...some of it was confusing....interesting, but confusing.


Now back to our regularly scheduled pissin' match.....

1. I believe that the issue of the "National Power Grid" has hopefully been resolved. See above.

2. Here's a statement off the Austin Power Company website:

"It is important to know that there is no single computer system in Texas that controls the entire system. There are 10 major systems and many smaller systems that effectively operate and control the ERCOT grid. ERCOT has procedures to operate the system if any of these systems were to fail. Systems have failed in the past and the procedures have worked effectively. Most of these computer systems are redundant and fall over to a back-up system if the primary system experiences an error. It is also important to note that the failure of an electric system outside of Texas (ERCOT) will have no impact on the Texas Grid. There are no free flowing A/C electric connections between the ERCOT grid and the Eastern or Western grid.

That is validation of my previous statements.

[Mavdog]

On Phil Gramm's role:

In June 2000, Senator Gramm co-sponsored the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, a measure aimed at deregulating certain kinds of futures trading, but not energy futures. That bill never made it to the floor, and thus quietly died. Six months later, on December 15, Gramm curiously turned up as co-sponsor of a bill with the same name, the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, which did deregulate energy futures and which, without undergoing the usual committee hearings and preliminary votes, was immediately attached as a rider to an 11,000-page appropriations bill. It passed and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton six days later. Few lawmakers had likely perused the rider carefully, if they even knew it was there.

On Wendy Gramm's role:

In an apparent response to a 1992 plea from Enron, Dr. Wendy Gramm, then chair of the federal Commodity Futures Trading Commission, moved to exempt the company's energy-swap operation from government oversight. By then, the Houston-based Enron was a major contributor to Senator Gramm's campaign.

A few days after she got the ball rolling on the exemption, Wendy Gramm resigned from the commission. Enron soon appointed her to its board of directors, where she served on the audit committee, which oversees the inner financial workings of the corporation. For this, the company paid her between $915,000 and $1.85 million in stocks and dividends, as much as $50,000 in annual salary, and $176,000 in attendance fees, according to a report by Public Citizen, a group that has relentlessly tracked Enron, which in turn has called the report unfair.

Meanwhile Enron had become Phil Gramm's largest corporate contributor—and according to Public Citizen, the largest across-the board donor in its industry. Between 1989 and 2001, the company tossed Gramm just under $100,000.

On the scandals at ERCOT:

ERCOT hires CEO
7/26/2004 5:57 PM
By: Associated Press

In the midst of a criminal investigation, the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) has hired a new CEO.

Tom Schrader began his leadership role at ERCOT Monday. He delivered a message for the more than 7 million customers who rely on the organization for electricity.

"At no time was the reliability of the grid or the integrity of the market compromised by the actions of those relatively few individuals. One of my primary objectives is to help restore that public confidence and trust," Schrader said.

The Department of Public Safety's special crimes unit is investigating three former ERCOT managers. They are accused of personally benefitting from contracts they awarded last year.

[Drbio]

Just passing on info from someone who has worked in the industry. Certainly I don't know for sure. Maybe your quotes come from specific providers and not the system as a whole. It makes sense that a former regulator in that industry would know whether or not our systems enable power transfers.

[LRB]

Mavdog are you asserting that 534 congressmen and senators, at least 200 of which, 1 democrat Vice President, and 1 democrat President let this bill go through without any of them A) reading the addendum or B) having one of their appointed staff read and sumerize the addendum. If you are then, I think that every elected politician who didn't read it or insure that he got a sumerization from an appointed staff member is equally culpable. That's their job.

I'm familiar with Wendy Gramms association with Enron. However upon investigation she was not found guilty of any wrong doing. Still doesn't stop inuendo from going forth though.

And your information on ERCOT is sadly lacking. So 3 managers may have benefited from contracts that they awarded. Maybe their were the lovers of the CEO like the the Israeli guy was of the NJ govenor. Lots of graft there also. Guess Kerry was behind that one since he's a democrat. [img]i/expressions/anim_roller.gif[/img]

You have nothing but tons of conjecture and inuendo and a couple of facts thrown in here and there.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Drbio
Just passing on info from someone who has worked in the industry. Certainly I don't know for sure. Maybe your quotes come from specific providers and not the system as a whole. It makes sense that a former regulator in that industry would know whether or not our systems enable power transfers.

Doc I think that it's pretty clear that:

A) ERCOT is capable of shipping electricity to and from other grid systems.

B) That Texas has no persistant connection to the other grid systems in the US.

C) That Mavdog is a stubborn pain in the lower extremities.


Edited for clarity