Centers - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

BGMaverick9 · 07-05-2010, 07:47 PM

We need a new thread, just saying.

http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullColumn.php?id=3274

For all of the Al Jefferson fans on here, this might be a buzzkill.

If Haywood isn't back, we need a defensive-centered center here in the worst way.

Thespiralgoeson · 07-05-2010, 07:52 PM

I just don't understand the appeal of getting guys who play the same position as Dirk. Jefferson is not a center. End of story. Neither is Bosh, Boozer, Amare, etc...

BGMaverick9 · 07-05-2010, 07:59 PM

Quote:

ORLANDO – The re-signing of Joe Johnson might not be the only big splash the Atlanta Hawks make this summer.

Free-agent center Shaquille O'Neal is seriously considering a two-year deal with the Hawks that starts at the mid-level exception of $5.8 million, according to NBA sources close to both the team and the future Hall of Fame player.

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/07/05/s...-join-johnson/

LSMF · 07-05-2010, 08:00 PM

Don't know how legit this guy is but I saw this at "Golden State Of Mind" http://twitter.com/gswscribe/status/17749808417

SMC0007 · 07-05-2010, 08:01 PM

*Marcin Gortat: Last year’s Mavs crush, retained by the Magic … and then unused for the year. With Orlando’s drafting of Orton, and the commitment they make to Dwight, do they really need Marcin?
(A big P.S. here: Our resident capologist, David Lord, is down in the laboratory working on an Amateur GM piece on taking a second stab at Gortat via a three-way trade. Stay tuned

1)Whats the latest on this^?

2)As far as the article goes on Al Jefferson, I don't think it's fair to judge a player by what a team does because there are too many variables especially when talking about a horrible team with little direction. My guess is that you could use that if you are talking about a PG on a team like that perhaps but a center...idk. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't put a lot of weight in it. I like parts of his game but he obviously wouldn't be first option.

Kaman has always been my first option in fantasy land centers but idk if we have a real shot at getting him?
http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullColumn.php?id=3199

sefant77 · 07-05-2010, 08:10 PM

Just sign Haywood to 4 years 8 million/year without a guaranteed 5th year and lets close the center topic

LonghornDub · 07-05-2010, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I just don't understand the appeal of getting guys who play the same position as Dirk. Jefferson is not a center. End of story. Neither is Bosh, Boozer, Amare, etc...

Positions are a lot more amorphous than you're letting on. Jefferson has almost entirely a low post game. For all practical purposes, he is a very different player than Dirk. You can label him a PF if you want because he's not 7'0", but he and Dirk have entirely different games. He's less similar to Dirk than the other guys you mentioned.

I still don't really want him here, but the strict adherence to what position a guy is labeled with is pretty outdated in the modern NBA.

BGMaverick9 · 07-05-2010, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

*Marcin Gortat: Last year’s Mavs crush, retained by the Magic … and then unused for the year. With Orlando’s drafting of Orton, and the commitment they make to Dwight, do they really need Marcin?
(A big P.S. here: Our resident capologist, David Lord, is down in the laboratory working on an Amateur GM piece on taking a second stab at Gortat via a three-way trade. Stay tuned

1)Whats the latest on this^?

2)As far as the article goes on Al Jefferson, I don't think it's fair to judge a player by what a team does because there are too many variables especially when talking about a horrible team with little direction. My guess is that you could use that if you are talking about a PG on a team like that perhaps but a center...idk. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't put a lot of weight in it. I like parts of his game but he obviously wouldn't be first option.

Kaman has always been my first option in fantasy land centers but idk if we have a real shot at getting him?
http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullColumn.php?id=3199

I DO like Kaman as an option, but it's so pointless to count on the Clippers doing something that makes sense.

Unless we are already talking to Orlando with Gortat in mind, I think we're just hoping to jump in and be the third team in a deal. I know there has been a lot of speculation between Utah and Orlando with Boozer going in a S&T.

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-05-2010, 08:18 PM

And Carlisle isn't afraid to play players out of position....ever heard of the 3 guard line-up? I thought Gooden did just fine at the 5. I mean, Jefferson is at least twice the player Gooden is IMO. There are things I like and dislike, but you could do worse. If you do dust for him and then get Damp back as the back-up...that would be ideal at the 5 no?

mac222b · 07-05-2010, 08:21 PM

all things considered Haywood will most likely be our best option at Center

BGMaverick9 · 07-05-2010, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

And Carlisle isn't afraid to play players out of position....ever heard of the 3 guard line-up? I thought Gooden did just fine at the 5. I mean, Jefferson is at least twice the player Gooden is IMO. There are things I like and dislike, but you could do worse. If you do dust for him and then get Damp back as the back-up...that would be ideal at the 5 no?

At this rate, Damp believes he's still gonna get paid and this market is suggesting he's right...I doubt he's back.

Jefferson just isn't a fit with Dirk, you need a defender with him.

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/maver...ywood-then-who

He doesn't even mention Kaman...

fluid.forty.one · 07-05-2010, 08:34 PM

I want nothing to do with a Jefferson / Dirk pairing.

twistaeffect2004 · 07-05-2010, 08:52 PM

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/07/05/s...-join-johnson/

For what it's worth, the Hawks have a 2-year deal on the table for Shaq.

I wonder what the level of interest there is for Shaq from Dallas. I'm sure they want to come to some sort of agreement with a starting center before they focus on Shaq.

tcat075 · 07-05-2010, 09:00 PM

I do like the name of Jermaine O'Neal being thrown around. He's not an elite offensive scorer, but he an above average scorer (even if he's not what he was) and he can play average, if not slightly better defense. His biggest problem is injuries, and he isn't the strong rebounder (this does pose a slight concern, as we weren't the best rebounding team last year), but if we're looking for someone who can score a little without sacrificing defense, I think he's worth a look.

BGMaverick9 · 07-05-2010, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

I do like the name of Jermaine O'Neal being thrown around. He's not an elite offensive scorer, but he an above average scorer (even if he's not what he was) and he can play average, if not slightly better defense. His biggest problem is injuries, and he isn't the strong rebounder (this does pose a slight concern, as we weren't the best rebounding team last year), but if we're looking for someone who can score a little without sacrificing defense, I think he's worth a look.

I talked about it on another forum and thread that he's a good option as a backup. If he's not required to be a primary threat and get heavy, heavy minutes then I think he's a great fit.

Thespiralgoeson · 07-05-2010, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Positions are a lot more amorphous than you're letting on. Jefferson has almost entirely a low post game. For all practical purposes, he is a very different player than Dirk. You can label him a PF if you want because he's not 7'0", but he and Dirk have entirely different games. He's less similar to Dirk than the other guys you mentioned.

I still don't really want him here, but the strict adherence to what position a guy is labeled with is pretty outdated in the modern NBA.

He has a low post game, but he cant defend the paint. If you can't defend the paint, then you're not going to be effective at 5. So okay, you can call him a center if you want, but he's a crappy center. And frankly, I don't think it's outdated at all. Look around the league, and almost all the guys at center are seven footers. Almost all the guys under 6'3 are point guards etc... Bottom line, pretty much every player in the NBA has one position that they're by far the most effective at. Sure, most guys can play 2 positions, maybe even 3, but there's always one that they play the bulk of their minutes at. In fairness, I haven't really seen Jefferson that much, but from what I have seen of him, I just don't have any interest whatsoever having him play 5 next to Dirk.

Dirkenstien · 07-05-2010, 09:45 PM

I'm thinking unless Shaq receives another offer from Dallas or a main contender he'll accept the Atlanta offer soon. My guess is he'd play in Dallas for a little less than the full MLE and I certainly wouldn't mind bringing the big fella on board. It keeps our C rotation solid once we resign Haywood and trade DUST and it's an improvement over Dampier in the back up role...especially considering Dampier has stated he'll want the MLE or close to it to come back.

EricaLubarsky · 07-05-2010, 10:06 PM

So Hawks are offering 2 years at the MLE.

We could certainly do worse with the MLE but anything more than 2 years would be a laugher. Shaq has already proven himself to be an out-of-shape fossil and more of a PR guy than a player.

grndmstr_c · 07-05-2010, 11:27 PM

To my mind Bosh is the best 4/5 on the market right now, so he's my first choice. You still need a true center who's strong defensively and on the boards and who's capable of giving you 24 quality mpg, though.

Haywood's my second choice for two reasons. First, re-signing him only costs money, whereas most other comparable contributors will likely cost some talent. The second reason is size. There aren't many guys in the NBA who are big enough to seriously challenge Bynum and Howard on the defensive end; Wood is one of the few.

The seemingly perpetually overrated trio of Kaman, Jefferson and Boozer are probably the next three on my list. I have concerns with all of them, but they do all bring something noteworthy to the table, and it can't be denied that they'd all provide a clear talent upgrade if you could get them for little more than salary relief.

My next two are less talented but have the most reliable and fan-worthy motors of the bunch: Gortat and Varejao. The allure in each case is the activity level on the defensive end, and the possibility that either or both might be obtainable for little more than expiring contracts depending on how their respective teams fare in the summer free agency market and trade talks. In a perfect world Dallas lands one of my top two and either of these guys comes off the bench. Gortat would be great playing behind Dirk/Bosh, whereas I think Varejao would be a very nice third PF/C behind Dirk/Wood.

I'm with others who find J. O'Neal intriguing. I'd be comfortable with him as an outright FA signing to back up Haywood, for example. Same goes for Damp (who'd be a better choice than JO if the Mavs landed Bosh).

Shaq's big.

Rounding it out, Okafor wouldn't offend me as a rotation player, but NO would have to pay out some talent (doesn't necessarily mean give up Paul, even though the Mavs are right to hold out for that for the time being) to unload his contract. Chandler (at this point in his career anyway) would offend me. And I have a hard time thinking of anybody else who interests me much.

LonghornDub · 07-05-2010, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

He has a low post game, but he cant defend the paint. If you can't defend the paint, then you're not going to be effective at 5. So okay, you can call him a center if you want, but he's a crappy center. And frankly, I don't think it's outdated at all. Look around the league, and almost all the guys at center are seven footers. Almost all the guys under 6'3 are point guards etc... Bottom line, pretty much every player in the NBA has one position that they're by far the most effective at. Sure, most guys can play 2 positions, maybe even 3, but there's always one that they play the bulk of their minutes at. In fairness, I haven't really seen Jefferson that much, but from what I have seen of him, I just don't have any interest whatsoever having him play 5 next to Dirk.

His defense is poor. I don't really want him here either.

I think you're wrong about "most centers around the league being 7 footers," though. The true C is actually very much a dying breed (or, at least, the true C with actual skills is very much a dying breed). Regardless, the point was that Jefferson plays like a center. He is poor defensively, but his positioning on the court is that of a center, regardless of his size.

BGMaverick9 · 07-05-2010, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

To my mind Bosh is the best 4/5 on the market right now, so he's my first choice. You still need a true center who's strong defensively and on the boards and who's capable of giving you 24 quality mpg, though.

Haywood's my second choice for two reasons. First, re-signing him only costs money, whereas most other comparable contributors will likely cost some talent. The second reason is size. There aren't many guys in the NBA who are big enough to seriously challenge Bynum and Howard on the defensive end; Wood is one of the few.

The seemingly perpetually overrated trio of Kaman, Jefferson and Boozer are probably the next three on my list. I have concerns with all of them, but they do all bring something noteworthy to the table, and it can't be denied that they'd all provide a clear talent upgrade if you could get them for little more than salary relief.

My next two are less talented but have the most reliable and fan-worthy motors of the bunch: Gortat and Varejao. The allure in each case is the activity level on the defensive end, and the possibility that either or both might be obtainable for little more than expiring contracts depending on how their respective teams fare in the summer free agency market and trade talks. In a perfect world Dallas lands one of my top two and either of these guys comes off the bench. Gortat would be great playing behind Dirk/Bosh, whereas I think Varejao would be a very nice third PF/C behind Dirk/Wood.

I'm with others who find J. O'Neal intriguing. I'd be comfortable with him as an outright FA signing to back up Haywood, for example. Same goes for Damp (who'd be a better choice than JO if the Mavs landed Bosh).

Shaq's big.

Rounding it out, Okafor wouldn't offend me as a rotation player, but NO would have to pay out some talent (doesn't necessarily mean give up Paul, even though the Mavs are right to hold out for that for the time being) to unload his contract. Chandler (at this point in his career anyway) would offend me. And I have a hard time thinking of anybody else who interests me much.

I don't think Kaman is overrated. If you have the view of him being the savior to the center position, then yeah...but I think he is a very serviceable center with things to offer to the Mavs, plus he is a legit center.

As long as there is a viable center as the starter, any out of the group of Gortat, Shaq, Jermaine, Varejao (in that exact order)

grndmstr_c · 07-05-2010, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I don't think Kaman is overrated.

Whether a player's overrated depends on who you're assuming is doing the rating. To be fair, I don't get the sense that Kaman is overrated by the national media. But I do feel he's overrated by people on this board.

BGMaverick9 · 07-05-2010, 11:52 PM

I saw this on another forum , but I can't find a solid link to source it with...so take it with a major grain of salt

Quote:

From a Heat beat writer: Heat having backburner S-&-T talks with Utah & Dallas - offering J. O'Neal and/or M. Beasley - targeting Boozer, Haywood

If it's just one of them for Haywood, hell no.
If it's BOTH, that's something to discuss. You still need to find a viable starting center because JO can't hold up over the full season with starters minutes. Beasley would be a weird addition, talented but "lost"...at the very least he would be trade bait.

I'd still see what you can do keeping Haywood AND getting JO with MLE money

BGMaverick9 · 07-05-2010, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Whether a player's overrated depends on who you're assuming is doing the rating. To be fair, I don't get the sense that Kaman is overrated by the national media. But I do feel he's overrated by people on this board.

DUST + fodder (Barea) for Kaman?
I have no idea if that works, financially, but it is what came to mind.

sike · 07-05-2010, 11:56 PM

I would take Kaman over Jefferson without question...is the Caveman an actual possibility?

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chris_kaman/index.html

grndmstr_c · 07-05-2010, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

DUST + fodder (Barea) for Kaman?
I have no idea if that works, financially, but it is what came to mind.

If Wood goes elsewhere, you haven't found a use for Damp in a deal for one of the marquee guys, and that's available, you do it. For sure.

Re: that Miami S&T rumor you just relayed, I'm with you in preferring to keep Wood. But as consolation prizes for losing your starting center go that's not bad.

sike · 07-06-2010, 12:03 AM

Kaman better offensively
Haywood better defensively

all things being equal, which would you choose to play along side Dirk, Kidd, and Roddy?

BGMaverick9 · 07-06-2010, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I would take Kaman over Jefferson without question...is the Caveman an actual possibility?

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chris_kaman/index.html

I think it's going to take a lot of things happening in Clipper-land for Kaman to come here. The first, which actually is likely, the clippers miss out on a prime free agent. Baron Davis seems like the only guy they've really gone out of their way to get, so the cheap-factor remains prevalent. Next, Blake Griffin needs to emerge as the healthy prospect they saw when they drafted him. They still need to really love what they see in their big man, Jordan. Sterling (the owner) needs to remain cheap and see Damp's contract as a way to save even more money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Re: that Miami S&T rumor you just relayed, I'm with you in preferring to keep Wood. But as consolation prizes for losing your starting center go that's not bad.

The problem is you've really got to find a center via trade. There is no way I'm going to trust in the fact that JO can survive an entire season as your starting center. The thing that worked for him in Miami was that wasn't his team, it was Wade's team. JO was just seen as a complimentary piece and not forced into a major role to produce.

I know how Beasley would fit in the roster, but I don't really know about him...he just seems coo-coo and soft.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

Kaman better offensively
Haywood better defensively

all things being equal, which would you choose to play along side Dirk, Kidd, and Roddy?

I know you said all things being equal, but I'm still taking money into account. You're getting Haywood for let's say 3-4 years, 30-40 million...Kaman 2 years at about 23-24 million. You can clearly make the argument for both guys, but I still think you lean towards Haywood. I think he's a lot more capable of reaching Kaman level on offense versus Kaman reaching Haywood's defensive output. The price is still tolerable on Haywood but if it gets into into the 12 million range, that's WAY too much.

dirno2000 · 07-06-2010, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

DUST + fodder (Barea) for Kaman?
I have no idea if that works, financially, but it is what came to mind.

Why would the Clippers do that, or any Kaman deal for that matter? They're not in a position where they have to shed salary, he's not terribly overpaid and he's their only good center. If he was going anywhere it would have been last summer when he was coming off an injury and they had Camby in the fold. At this point his name probably shouldn't even come up in the center discussion.

I'd hate to overpay Haywood, and I'm still holding out hope that we won't have to, but he's clearly the best option to fill the position.

Dirkadirkastan · 07-06-2010, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I think you're wrong about "most centers around the league being 7 footers," though. The true C is actually very much a dying breed (or, at least, the true C with actual skills is very much a dying breed).

Then the 7-footers of this generation need to get their asses back in the gym.

Bayliss · 07-06-2010, 12:46 AM

Good God... Jermaine O'Neal is intriguing to y'all? The guy shot 20.5% from the field and 42.9% from the line last year in the playoffs?!?!?

He made Erick Dampier look like Wilt Chamberlain.

Dirkadirkastan · 07-06-2010, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Good God... Jermaine O'Neal is intriguing to y'all? The guy shot 20.5% from the field and 42.9% from the line last year in the playoffs?!?!?

He made Erick Dampier look like Wilt Chamberlain.

Damp shot 0%.

SMC0007 · 07-06-2010, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Whether a player's overrated depends on who you're assuming is doing the rating. To be fair, I don't get the sense that Kaman is overrated by the national media. But I do feel he's overrated by people on this board.

What do you not like about Kaman? and why would you not put him above Haywood?

KINGBEEF · 07-06-2010, 12:56 AM

I would definitely put Kaman above Haywood. He's an offensive threat easily...

BGMaverick9 · 07-06-2010, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Good God... Jermaine O'Neal is intriguing to y'all? The guy shot 20.5% from the field and 42.9% from the line last year in the playoffs?!?!?

He made Erick Dampier look like Wilt Chamberlain.

It's not like he faced a slouch team in the playoffs, it was a team that was a better second half away from winning the NBA title, just saying...

He had his best year, in recent seasons, in terms of durability and his best season ever for field goal percentage...on a offensively-challenged Miami team.

As a backup center, what is the problem?

grndmstr_c · 07-06-2010, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

What do you not like about Kaman? and why would you not put him above Haywood?

I don't trust Kaman's brain.

As for Haywood, I rate him higher on my offseason priorities list pretty much for the reasons I stated. Keeping him only only costs money (just as long as he doesn't cost too much), and I think he'd make a bigger defensive impact than any of the guys I ranked below him, including Kaman.

SMC0007 · 07-06-2010, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I don't trust Kaman's brain.

As for Haywood, I rate him higher on my offseason priorities list pretty much for the reasons I stated. Keeping him only only costs money (just as long as he doesn't cost too much), and I think he'd make a bigger defensive impact than any of the guys I ranked below him, including Kaman.

I didn't think Kaman played bad defense. Slightly under Haywood perhaps but offensively his numbers, speed and ability to shoot it a little further out is very enticing. Surely there are some creative realistic ways to get KAman? Damp chip+ fill, SnT Haywood +fill. They can have something coming back if that is what they are looking for...idk

grndmstr_c · 07-06-2010, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I didn't think Kaman played bad defense. Slightly under Haywood perhaps but offensively his numbers, speed and ability to shoot it a little further out is very enticing. Surely there are some creative realistic ways to get KAman? Damp chip+ fill, SnT Haywood +fill. They can have something coming back if that is what they are looking for...idk

Oh, not saying Kaman's a bad defender. He's a true center who is absolutely capable of contributing on that end of the court, and is just as surely a more capable scorer than Wood. My concern with him starts and stops with his BBIQ, which IMO is extremely low.

Underdog · 07-06-2010, 09:40 AM

Jesus, Jermaine O'Neal? I'd rather have Shaq - he's less of a health risk (seriously).

Tyson Chandler is another name you can cross off my list - the guy has been a big bag of nothing ever since he dismantled us in the playoffs a few years back.

Kaman is interesting because he's the best "pure" center in the bunch. He's easily the best offensive center on the list and he's no slouch on defense either (not as much upside as an active Haywood, but not as much downside as a lazy Haywood...)

Underdog · 07-06-2010, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Oh, not saying Kaman's a bad defender. He's a true center who is absolutely capable of contributing on that end of the court, and is just as surely a more capable scorer than Wood. My concern with him starts and stops with his BBIQ, which IMO is extremely low.

How much BBIQ does one need on a Dirk/Kidd-led team?