Nellie's toss... Tactic or cop out? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Simon2 · 12-05-2003, 09:26 AM

Nellie has a penchant for getting throw out of games. I think in the beginning, when he started with the Mavs, it was a great emotional tool. Now, it just looks like a sorry excuse to leave the game. Last night, when Nellie got tossed, the team was down by 11 and were down 12 after the tech. I didn't look like the Mavs needed any motivation as they were already trying hard. Too hard in my opinion. Was it for the refs? Maybe but it didn't help much did it? From now on, Nellie should not allow himself to be thrown out of the game. Its his responsibility as a coach to see the game to its end. What would Nellie feel if Nash, Dirk or Finley got themselves thrown out because they were frustrated? Seems like he abandoned his team last night.

dirno2000 · 12-05-2003, 09:48 AM

Last night...cop out

The tactic is sometimes effective against bad teams when the players can't get into it. Motivation shouldn't be a factor against the Lakers, or in playoff games for that matter.

If he is going to get tossed, at least pick a better spot. There were a number of controversial calls last night and Nellie gets tossed on a no brainer.

LRB · 12-05-2003, 10:04 AM

It would have worked better if Nellie could have gotten his fat ass thrown out in the 1st 30 seconds of the game. Without Nellie's cowardly presence and preference for small ball we might have done better.

Simon2 · 12-05-2003, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: LRB
It would have worked better if Nellie could have gotten his fat ass thrown out in the 1st 30 seconds of the game. Without Nellie's cowardly presence and preference for small ball we might have done better.

Lol! Actually, I would have liked to see Bradley play till he fouled out.

kg_veteran · 12-05-2003, 10:47 AM

Cop out.

MavsFanFinley · 12-05-2003, 10:59 AM

I've always believed it was a tactic to get the team fired up.

Last night, after he received his first technical, I told my friends it won't be long before he's tossed. I thought he gave up long before the players did.

Did anyone look like they believed they could beat the Lakers at the start the game?

Rhylan · 12-05-2003, 11:01 AM

I would have liked it if he would have received his second tech standing up for his point guard getting punked in the face, instead of on some lame no-call where Kobe really didn't step out of bounds. But, that's just me.

bernardos70 · 12-05-2003, 11:04 AM

I see that as quitting on the team [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

Dooby · 12-05-2003, 11:06 AM

Nellie=Tired bit.

bogey · 12-05-2003, 11:08 AM

Nellie copped out. He quit on the team and it showed. Cubes should fine Nellie a game check and give it to charity. That was disgusting.

kg_veteran · 12-05-2003, 11:12 AM

Quote:

I would have liked it if he would have received his second tech standing up for his point guard getting punked in the face, instead of on some lame no-call where Kobe really didn't step out of bounds. But, that's just me.

No shit. Nellie should have stood up for Steve when he was BLEEDING from the mouth after Malone punched him in the face with his elbow.

Steve's tough as hell and got right back up, but I want somebody to be pissed and in Malone's face.

bogey · 12-05-2003, 11:13 AM

I'm never going to argue about the soft label again. Not one damn Maverick player or coach stuck up for Steve after the elbow.

It pisses me off. And to add that Nellie quit on the team......I am very disgusted.

kg_veteran · 12-05-2003, 11:17 AM

I'm not going to argue about it either unless something changes.

You can be a "finesse" team and still be tough. But you can't be tough if you just stand there and take it when the other team pushes you around.

Dooby · 12-05-2003, 11:29 AM

Ripping Nellie is still one of the few things that gets my juices flowing on this board.

So, since David isn't here, let me just say that we are all knee-jerking.

Remember in the second year of the Mavs current 3 years of playoffs run? In the SAC series, when Eschmeyer was the first guy off the bench in game 1 and he hadn't played in the playoffs all year and he actually played pretty well, while Nellie yelled at Raef for sucking? And then Nellie yanked Esch and didn't play him the rest of the series?

Good times.

Rhylan · 12-05-2003, 11:37 AM

Even Coop was smart enough to make the point last night that you can't possibly tell how Danny Fortson is going to perform based on the first four minutes of the game.

It's as simple as this -- Nellie does not know how to use semi-skilled players 6'8" and above. He outthinks himself every stinkin time.

Simon2 · 12-05-2003, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
I'm not going to argue about it either unless something changes.

You can be a "finesse" team and still be tough. But you can't be tough if you just stand there and take it when the other team pushes you around.

I think it happened so fast. No one even saw it. Its hard to react instinctively when you don't see it when your own eyes.

Rhylan · 12-05-2003, 11:42 AM

Well, it didn't help that they'd all gone back down court to play D. But, I wanted to come running from the stands. Cuban, Dirk, and Marquis stood up for at least 3 or 4 minutes after the play. You'd think Finley or Walker or SOMEBODY could have run back down to the other end to take up for their boy.

Of course, against LA, if you were Antoine Walker, wouldn't you be afraid to run down the court enraged? Even if you did nothing, running down the court enraged against LA is grounds for a technical foul.

LRB · 12-05-2003, 11:49 AM

Nellie's coaching performance last night was the coaching equivalent of an air ball.

bogey · 12-05-2003, 11:53 AM

Plenty of bench guys saw it. I know it is a serious fine for coming off the bench, but geez....show a set of nuts guys. That was hideous.

LRB · 12-05-2003, 11:57 AM

This would have been worth Fortson getting another 3 game vacation for giving a retalitory elbow.

The Buddha · 12-05-2003, 12:13 PM

Although Nellie's absolute fear of the Lakers is hard to stomach, I don't blame him for the players general inferiority complex. The Mavs players are some of the best athletes in the world and should not need the encouragement of a guy sitting on the bench to believe in their ability to play hard-ass basketball and take it to any other player on any given day. VanEx never doubted his game, but this was not something Nellie or another coach cultivated for him, it is something that came from within. The Mavs players need to look within for the answer to the Laker domination of their psyche. Lastly, I would add that Nash seems to be the one who needs to do the most soul searching. The reason he seemingly played so well last night was because the game was already out of hand and he had nothing to lose. Compare this to the beginning of any Mavs-Lakers game when he runs out of control, throwing the ball away in his scared frenzy. You can see in his eyes the fear. Until Nash gets this straightened out on his own, the Mavs aren't going to contend with the Lakers...because ultimately the ball goes through Nash's hands before it gets to any other player, and he just might be passing along the fear and defeatism as that ball shakily flies from his unsteady hand.

LRB · 12-05-2003, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: The Buddha
Although Nellie's absolute fear of the Lakers is hard to stomach, I don't blame him for the players general inferiority complex. The Mavs players are some of the best athletes in the world and should not need the encouragement of a guy sitting on the bench to believe in their ability to play hard-ass basketball and take it to any other player on any given day. VanEx never doubted his game, but this was not something Nellie or another coach cultivated for him, it is something that came from within. The Mavs players need to look within for the answer to the Laker domination of their psyche. Lastly, I would add that Nash seems to be the one who needs to do the most soul searching. The reason he seemingly played so well last night was because the game was already out of hand and he had nothing to lose. Compare this to the beginning of any Mavs-Lakers game when he runs out of control, throwing the ball away in his scared frenzy. You can see in his eyes the fear. Until Nash gets this straightened out on his own, the Mavs aren't going to contend with the Lakers...because ultimately the ball goes through Nash's hands before it gets to any other player, and he just might be passing along the fear and defeatism as that ball shakily flies from his unsteady hand.

I guess you give Bill Parcells no credit for instilling a kick ass attitude in the Dallas Cowboys compared to previous years attitude then? So coaches have no affect on the teams attitude and can be as chicken shit as they so desire and it has no effect on the players?

The Buddha · 12-05-2003, 12:46 PM

Good Point LRB....

Still, given Nellie's glaring weakness--lack of toughness--I prefer him with this fault and his assetts as a coach to other coaches in the league. The only guys I might want in his place are Phil Jackson or Popovich, but as these guys are comfortable coaching for the Mavs only real competition, besides the Kings, they aren't headed to Dallas anytime soon. So, I ask you, who in place of Nellie? I am just being a realist and saying instead of looking for some external change people need to start looking within. I just happen to think the Mavs players have had enough experience and success in the league these past years to be able to will their own wins over the Lakers, with or without Nellies encouragement. Case in point, last year when the Lakers came back from 30 to beat the Mavs, I was originally pissed that Nellie did not call more time outs to get their heads back in the game. Then I thought, why didn't someone like Finley, Nash, or Dirk take it upon themselves to stop the game. Why are they looking to someone else like Nellie to control their destiny? If you watch Phil or Popovich they routinely put it on the players to find the way and will to win. With the Spurs it is Duncan out there coaching, controlling the team. Remember last year in the playoffs Duncan all over Parker for his failures and his successes? With the Lakers you got Shaq and Kobe out there calling for the ball, never questioning there ability to get it done. Who coaches on the floor for the Mavs? Who is out there calling for the ball like VanEx did last year?

LRB · 12-05-2003, 12:55 PM

I don't particularly like Phil Jackson, but I would trade Nellie for him in a heartbeat. Other coaches either coaching in the league or who have formerly coached that I would take: Jerry Sloan, Pat Riley, Larry Bird, Hubie Brown, Paul Silas, and Greg Popavich. Admittedly none of these are readily available and waiting for a call so they can step in. Some are down right untouchable. But I'd rather have little whistle than nellie if Cubes could convince Nellie to step down. Hell I'd take Avery Johnson as coach. Maybe we could trade for him and then let him resign as player so we could sign him as coach.

Mavs_fun_fan · 12-05-2003, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: The Buddha
Although Nellie's absolute fear of the Lakers is hard to stomach, I don't blame him for the players general inferiority complex. The Mavs players are some of the best athletes in the world and should not need the encouragement of a guy sitting on the bench to believe in their ability to play hard-ass basketball and take it to any other player on any given day. VanEx never doubted his game, but this was not something Nellie or another coach cultivated for him, it is something that came from within. The Mavs players need to look within for the answer to the Laker domination of their psyche. Lastly, I would add that Nash seems to be the one who needs to do the most soul searching. The reason he seemingly played so well last night was because the game was already out of hand and he had nothing to lose. Compare this to the beginning of any Mavs-Lakers game when he runs out of control, throwing the ball away in his scared frenzy. You can see in his eyes the fear. Until Nash gets this straightened out on his own, the Mavs aren't going to contend with the Lakers...because ultimately the ball goes through Nash's hands before it gets to any other player, and he just might be passing along the fear and defeatism as that ball shakily flies from his unsteady hand.

LRB stated Parcells affect on the Cowboys. Parcells preparation is the key, be spends countless hours studying opponents and his own players. He develops a plan which places his players in roles and positions allowing them to use their talent strengths against their opponents weakness giving them the best possible chance at success. He then explains what and how his players need to do and what to expect.

That's where confident play at this level comes from, knowing what, how and when he will be counted on. These guys are all great athletes, last night you saw one team playing within themselves and one team that had either no plan or no confidence in the plan it had. Maybe the Lakers are unbeatable although that's not the way it appeared last night, they weren't even tested. If the Mavs play their best and still lose so be it but to not even show up (something we have seen all year so far) is the coaches responsibility plain and simple.

edit: Nellie totally copped out and quit on his team last night and Cuban needs to make sure he understands he was exposed last night.

LRB · 12-05-2003, 01:20 PM

Quote:

He develops a plan which places his players in roles and positions allowing them to use their talent strengths against their opponents weakness giving them the best possible chance at success.

You mean something like playing Fin at the 2 instead of the 3. [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

MightyToine · 12-06-2003, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Rhylan
Well, it didn't help that they'd all gone back down court to play D. But, I wanted to come running from the stands. Cuban, Dirk, and Marquis stood up for at least 3 or 4 minutes after the play. You'd think Finley or Walker or SOMEBODY could have run back down to the other end to take up for their boy.

Of course, against LA, if you were Antoine Walker, wouldn't you be afraid to run down the court enraged? Even if you did nothing, running down the court enraged against LA is grounds for a technical foul.

On the replay, I think Walker saw exactly when Nash was hit (he was seen watching on the video although I don't know if his view was obstructed from his vantage point)...

The fact is that :

Let's say that Walker gets in Karl's face, Walker will then have to deal with the entire Lakers team ALONE. That's right...ALONE! I mean...if at least 2 other Mavs got involved, Walker would've joined in and it could easily touch off a chain reaction ending up with the Entire Mavs team getting into it.

And as YOU said, who suffers out of all this besides Nash? WALKER. Why? Cause he will get the technical for "taunting"(GUFFAW!!! Please!) Malone. If you remember, did Malone get a Flagrant Foul called on him? nope. A Tech? Nah.

AW was stuck between a rock and a SHAQ-place so there really wasn't anything he could do except attempt break up a possible brawl if there was one.

dude1394 · 12-06-2003, 05:23 PM

Interesting that walker is now supposed to be the backbone/leader of the team after being here...what 6 weeks. It probably speaks volumes about the current team leadership.

But to the thread... I think nellie getting tossed is one the the things I like least about him. It doesn't really do anything and in my opinion it promotes the team losing their composure as well. I don't know if he does it because it is calculated (you would think so) or just out of frustration.

But he wouldn't put up with one of his players acting out of frustration on the court, he shouldn't promote the same.

Captain Disaster · 12-06-2003, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: The Buddha
Although Nellie's absolute fear of the Lakers is hard to stomach, I don't blame him for the players general inferiority complex. The Mavs players are some of the best athletes in the world and should not need the encouragement of a guy sitting on the bench to believe in their ability to play hard-ass basketball and take it to any other player on any given day. VanEx never doubted his game, but this was not something Nellie or another coach cultivated for him, it is something that came from within. The Mavs players need to look within for the answer to the Laker domination of their psyche. Lastly, I would add that Nash seems to be the one who needs to do the most soul searching. The reason he seemingly played so well last night was because the game was already out of hand and he had nothing to lose. Compare this to the beginning of any Mavs-Lakers game when he runs out of control, throwing the ball away in his scared frenzy. You can see in his eyes the fear. Until Nash gets this straightened out on his own, the Mavs aren't going to contend with the Lakers...because ultimately the ball goes through Nash's hands before it gets to any other player, and he just might be passing along the fear and defeatism as that ball shakily flies from his unsteady hand.

Our bigger players need to stand up; Nash is tiny compared to Shaq. He had a great game as a matter of fact; he did show incredible toughness coming back after the cheap shot. He went through the lane several times after that, fearlessly. You need to consider the WHOLE game, not just a few instances.

MightyToine · 12-06-2003, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Captain Disaster

Quote:

Originally posted by: The Buddha
Although Nellie's absolute fear of the Lakers is hard to stomach, I don't blame him for the players general inferiority complex. The Mavs players are some of the best athletes in the world and should not need the encouragement of a guy sitting on the bench to believe in their ability to play hard-ass basketball and take it to any other player on any given day. VanEx never doubted his game, but this was not something Nellie or another coach cultivated for him, it is something that came from within. The Mavs players need to look within for the answer to the Laker domination of their psyche. Lastly, I would add that Nash seems to be the one who needs to do the most soul searching. The reason he seemingly played so well last night was because the game was already out of hand and he had nothing to lose. Compare this to the beginning of any Mavs-Lakers game when he runs out of control, throwing the ball away in his scared frenzy. You can see in his eyes the fear. Until Nash gets this straightened out on his own, the Mavs aren't going to contend with the Lakers...because ultimately the ball goes through Nash's hands before it gets to any other player, and he just might be passing along the fear and defeatism as that ball shakily flies from his unsteady hand.

Our bigger players need to stand up; Nash is tiny compared to Shaq. He had a great game as a matter of fact; he did show incredible toughness coming back after the cheap shot. He went through the lane several times after that, fearlessly. You need to consider the WHOLE game, not just a few instances.

Would you rather Shawn Bradley go after Shaq? I mean...it would be entertaining for a bit until Shaq nails Bradley with one of those haymakers that he missed on Brad Miller..... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img]

Quote:

Interesting that walker is now supposed to be the backbone/leader of the team after being here...what 6 weeks. It probably speaks volumes about the current team leadership.

Where was it said that Walker is supposed to be the leader of the team? *scratches head*

I was just pointing out where Walker was and provided some explanation as to why he didn't do anything when Nash got hit....