The coming Barack Hussein Obama thugocracy

[dude1394]

From IowaHawk...(First an apology for a "non-satire")

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk.../i-am-joe.html

First, a pre-emptive apology for the intentional non-humor to follow. I promise that all future non-humor will be strictly unintentional.

We've all witnessed a lot of insanity in American politics over the last few years. Up until the last few days, none of it has seriously bothered me; hey, just more grist for the satire mill. But after witnessing the media's blitzkreig on Joe 'the Plumber' Wurzelbacher, I can only muster anger, and no small amount of fear.

Politicians -- Sarah Palin, Bill Clinton, et al. -- obviously have to put up with some rude, nasty shit, but it's right there in the jobs description. Joe the Plumber is different. He was a guy tossing a football with his kid in the front yard of his $125,000 house when a politician picked him out as a prop for a 30 second newsbite for the cable news cameras. Joe simply had the temerity to speak truth (or, if you prefer, an uninformed opinion) to power, for which the politico-media axis apparently determined that he must be humiliated, harassed, smashed, destroyed. The viciousness and glee with which they set about the task ought to concern anyone who still cares about citizen participation, and freedom of speech, and all that old crap they taught in Civics class before politics turned into Narrative Deathrace 3000, and Web 2.0 turned into Berlin 1932.0.

Godwin's Law! you say? if the jackboot fits, wear it.

If it's meta-memes and meta-meta-narratives these media headlice want, so be it. I hope you will join me in expressing a simple bit of solidarity with this guy, Spartacus style. I AM JOE. I am a Wal Mart schlub in flyover country who changes my own oil and unclogs drains without a license. I smoke and drink beer and toss the football in the front yard with my kid, and I figure I can fend my way without handouts from some Magic Messiah's candy bags. Most everyone in my family and most everyone I grew up with is another Joe, and if you screw with them, you screw with me.

Are you a Joe? Say it proud. Leave it on every goddamn newspaper comment section and online forum. Let these pressroom and online thugs know you won't stay silent when they try to destroy the life of a private citizen for speaking his mind -- because for every one of them, there are a million Joe Wurzelbachers. And for that we should all be thankful.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

omg! a reporter asking for information to write a story!

what is american journalism coming to? one would think that the reporter could write a story without any research or gathering of information, right?

You are correct...I'm waiting on the michelle obama motherhood article. When you find it please post it.

Cindy McCain's sorta waiting for it also.
http://www.pajamasmedia.com/instapun...es2/025939.php

CINDY MCCAIN'S LAWYER pushes back at the New York Times. "It is worth noting that you have not employed your investigative assets looking into Michelle Obama. You have not tried to find Barack Obama's drug dealer that he wrote about in his book, Dreams of My Father. Nor have you interviewed his poor relatives in Kenya and determined why Barack Obama has not rescued them. Thus, there is a terrific lack of balance here." Ouch. More here.

[dude1394]

Must have been someone from ACORN...

http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...M2MDZkMDMyNGE=

Your Papers, Please [Jay Nordlinger]

Have a friend who was in Riverside Park (Manhattan) with his baby daughter. A woman came up to him and said, “Are you a registered Democrat?” He said no. She said, “Well, you can register right now — it will just take a second. I have the necessary paperwork here.” He said, “No, actually, that’s not it — I am registered. It’s just that I’m a registered Republican.” He said that the woman gave him a look of hate such as he had seldom seen — sent a shudder down his spine. She walked away, still glaring, bitterly, without a word.

Now, the thing is, my friend’s not very political at all — he’s not like me and the rest of us NRO-niks. He just has a nice career (unrelated to politics), and a nice family, loves to play golf, likes to go to the movies, and goes about his business. And he thought, “Shouldn’t she simply have been pleased that I was registered? Isn’t political participation and good citizenship what it’s all about?”

Oh, no, no, my friend — not by a long shot. Come the revolution, you will understand. And that lady will give you a good long time in a camp to think about it.

[chumdawg]

Come the revolution you will understand. LOL.

You can't make this stuff up. You really can't. Come the revolution. LOL. You guys are LOONBATS!!!!!

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Must have been someone from ACORN...

http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...M2MDZkMDMyNGE=

wow! you mean they actually gave this person a "look of hate"??

how anyone could link a "look of hate" to a "revolution" or even more so "time..in a camp" is beyond comprehension. I mean, talk about going to an extreme...

all from a "look"! oh, those "thugs" and their mean "look"! it's just too much to bear.

wow. please, step back from the ledge, those demons in your mind are not real.

[dude1394]

You go Army of Joe's....

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...DRkYzI=&w=MQ==

The scene turned into a mini-fracas when David Corn, of Mother Jones, defended press coverage. Munoz was having none of it. Why, he asked, would the press whack Joe the Plumber when it didn’t want to report on Obama’s relationship with William Ayers, the former Weather Underground bomber? “How come that’s not in the news all the time?” Munoz said. “How come Joe the Plumber is every second? I’m talking about NBC, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, and CNN.”A black woman with a strong Caribbean accent jumped in the fray. “Tell me,” she said to Corn, “why is it you can go and find out about Joe the Plumber’s tax lien and when he divorced his wife and you can’t tell me when Barack Obama met with William Ayers? Why? Why could you not tell us that? Joe the Plumber is me!”

“I am Joe the Plumber!” Munoz chimed in. “You’re attacking me.”

“Wait a second,” Corn said. “Do you pay your taxes?”

“Yes, I pay my taxes,” the woman said.

“Then you’re better than Joe the Plumber,” Corn said.

That set off a general free-for-all. “I’m going to tell you something,” Munoz yelled at Corn. “I’m better than Obama. Why? Because I’m not associated with terrorists!”

And so it went. I walked away for a few minutes to strike up a conversation with the woman who had jumped into the debate. Her name was Connie, and she said she had been born and raised in Antigua, in the West Indies. “I immigrated to the United States over 20 years ago,” she told me. “It’s my home. America has become my home. I came here freely of my own free will because I loved it, and I loved what it had to offer, and I don’t want to see it ruined.”

I asked her whether it was difficult, as a black person, to support McCain at a time when probably 90 to 95 percent of black voters support Obama. “I have always been a conservative,” she told me. “I’m mad. I was extremely upset to see the way the media went after Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber. . . . To see the drive-by media and the Obama campaign attack two ordinary Americans simply because one of them managed to get Barack Obama to tell the truth, it was shameful and disgraceful.”

Meanwhile, the great debate was continuing, with Tito the Construction Worker and David the Journalist trading points. Much of it wasn’t terribly informative, but there was one lovely moment when a shouting match turned into a lesson on the fundamental meaning of American constitutional rights — and the immigrant was the teacher.

“Let me talk,” Munoz said to Corn. “I know the Constitution, and I know my First Amendment — ”

“I’m not the state,” Corn said. “I can’t take that right away from you.”

“No, no,” Munoz shot back. “Even the state, the state cannot take that right away.”

“Right, right,” Corn quickly agreed.

“Nobody can take that away,” Munoz said.

And indeed they can’t.

[Murphy3]

It's obvious that Obama has never had an association with the working class. He'll have no use for the common man if he is to win the election.. he's just using them to get what he needs. Obama's the type of politician that you have to worry about..the kind that will say anything at any time just to better his position. He has no inherent sense of right and wrong. He is one of the slimiest of all politicians...

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

It's obvious that Obama has never had an association with the working class. He'll have no use for the common man if he is to win the election.. he's just using them to get what he needs. Obama's the type of politician that you have to worry about..the kind that will say anything at any time just to better his position. He has no inherent sense of right and wrong. He is one of the slimiest of all politicians...

damn dude... you are falling off the deep end!


(and as an aside.. the community organizer, that got so derided for his low level grass roots experience has no experience with the working class? as opposed to the man who was either military attache to congres or IN congress/senate for the last 30 years? or perhaps as opposed to the playboy son of a president grandson of a senator? I suppose his association with A-rod gave HIM his "working man" cred ! )

[dude1394]

Yup....I'll let ya' know if my car gets keyed...just got some stickers.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/oct...ccain-sticker/

Clearwater - CLEARWATER Frank Armstrong was preparing to go for a jog this morning when he noticed his Lexus – adorned with a McCain-Palin sticker - had been vandalized with obscenities and a burned American flag.

Armstrong discovered the damage to his 2006 Lexus about 8:30 a.m. at his Sand Key condominium at 1400 Gulf Blvd. Clearwater police and Armstrong said someone etched obscenities and "KKK" into the paint, burned several areas of the car with cigarettes, set the flag on fire on his hood and may have urinated on the vehicle. Officers and Armstrong think the car was singled out because of its political stickers, including one reading "Nobama."

"This is definitely a hate crime," said Armstrong, a 41-year-old physician.

Police estimated damage at $4,500. Police classified the incident as "criminal mischief/hate crime" and said it appeared "to be politically/racially motivated because the victim affixed a bumper sticker supporting the McCain campaign as well as an anti-Obama bumper sticker."

[Murphy3]

I seriously doubt Obama came within a 100 feet of a working class person when he didn't have to back when he was a "community organizer".

[12 Tone Melodies]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

it's damn insulting to compare the american electorate to the nazis.

it minimizes the horrors of what the nazis did as well.

no one should trivialize the masssacre of a people.

The left has none nothing but trivialize the horrors of the Holocaust when they:

• spent 13 + years calling LBJ/Nixon/Kissinger/Ford Nazis
• spent 12 years calling Reagan/Bush 41/their cabinets Nazis
• spent 8 years calling Bush/Cheney/the US Army Nazis
• comparing Abu Grahib/Guantanamo Nazi concentration camps?

And why does the left always make references to their enemies as Hitler or Nazis but never to Stalin and any of his "purges"?
Kristallnacht wasn't a massacre, per se, but mass destruction of property by thugs

[kappasigma]

only difference is back then the nazi's were killing jews, now we kill arabs on behalf of the jews. makes sense to me.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

only difference is back then the nazi's were killing jews, now we kill arabs on behalf of the jews. makes sense to me.

yea...poor things.

http://www.foxnews.com/images/200456...705_israel.jpg

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by 12 Tone Melodies

The left has none nothing but trivialize the horrors of the Holocaust when they:

• spent 13 + years calling LBJ/Nixon/Kissinger/Ford Nazis
• spent 12 years calling Reagan/Bush 41/their cabinets Nazis
• spent 8 years calling Bush/Cheney/the US Army Nazis
• comparing Abu Grahib/Guantanamo Nazi concentration camps?

And why does the left always make references to their enemies as Hitler or Nazis but never to Stalin and any of his "purges"?
Kristallnacht wasn't a massacre, per se, but mass destruction of property by thugs

gee, you have such a big net you want to put "the left" into. do you do the same to the right for calling everyone "communists"?

not sure who called lbj a "nazi".

calling kissinger a "nazi" has so much irony to it, and again who called him that?

fyi I said the very same thing to the fringe leftists who called bush "hitler".

I sure don't need you attempting to lecture me on kristallnacht. there were murders on that night, and there were thousands of synagogues and businesses burnt to the ground. it was the beginning of the german pogrom. the germans and the russians had a lot in common in their murderous ways.

the point (ahem) is the american public does not engage in pogroms, and the american election isn't being undermined by either party, and there is no chance of an enabling act being passed in the usa that would allow for power to be concentrated in one individual. there is no possibility of the genocide occuring in america such as was presaged by kristallnacht.

using such an analogy only minimizes the death and horror that the nazis afflicted on europe by comparing our tolerant and stable political environment to such an horrific act.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

the point (ahem) is the american public does not engage in progroms

Not yet...take a look at what has been going on with Marc Stein up in canada.

[u2sarajevo]

If you are talking about Mark Steyn.... that guy is a wacko.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Not yet...take a look at what has been going on with Marc Stein up in canada.

I can only asume that you do not understand what a pogrom is.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

I can only asume that you do not understand what a pogrom is.

Sure I do. When someone like Steyn is no longer given protection by the state for his viewpoints, watch out.

[Epitome22]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Sure I do. When someone like Steyn is no longer given protection by the state for his viewpoints, watch out.

Yeah, I think we've just confirmed that he doesn't understand.

[kappasigma]

ya, poor things....jews have a history of being persecuted by muslims......like when the, oh wait, that was the christians, and then again in .... wait that was the christians again too...... oh ya, when they unlawfully took over settlements in a country called palistine then spread beyond the borders agreed upon by US and Britan. ya, some muslims did attack them then. ok , ur right, lets just keep on killing 25,000 civilian iraqi's a year....that will teach those palistinians to stay away from their old land.


of course it makes sense, we did it to the native indians, why not the palistinians and the iraqi's and afghans too since they are muslim and look the same, sorta.

thats the spirit, and we wonder why they hate us?

[kappasigma]

my only question is since we defend Isreal till we die, with money, loyality, support, etc. .....

what have they done for us? We wouldn't support them if we don't benefit right? I mean, we have to keep iraq, iran down cause they are threats to us, right? like 9/11 .... when afghans.....errrrr....saudi's living in afghanistan attacked us?

oh, now i remember why we defend Isreal so much........ our televagalists tell us to .... cause christians have a long history of support for the jews, right? well, no, not really, actually, christians have persecuted more jews than any other religion.....


there's got to be a reason......

immigrants come to america and become american, so jews immigrate here and become american too, right?

ya, they do become american, but they don't call america they land, they still refer to israel as their land..... hmmmmm...... so they come here, use us and our resources, act and look american, but they don't believe this is their land..... they have a message from God, they believe they must all return to the the land, so it must be protected.


so wait a minute, does that mean that the Jews who come to america will use america to protect the land they will go back to????

then what happens to america after they leave .... .nothing, its keeps on going the same cause new jews are born who will use america..... what does that mean for america???


wake up people, it means 1/3 of ALL OF OUR FORIEGN AID dollars, 5.2 billion dollars last year went to a country who's population is 0.093% of the world population. what about the other 2/3 of the foriegn aid..... oh that, well another 1/3 went to countries like Eygpt who agree to sign treaties with Israel. we give them money for that too. oh ya, and we just spent 23 million and sent the corp of engineers to build a fence between israel and eygpt. WTF????

"In addition, there is the more than $1.5 billion in private U.S. funds that go to Israel annually in the form of $1 billion in private tax-deductible donations and $500 million in Israeli bonds. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax-deductible contributions to a foreign government, made possible through a number of Jewish charities, does not exist with any other country. Nor do these figures include short- and long-term commercial loans from U.S. banks, which have been as high as $1 billion annually in recent years."


what does all this mean to you? about $23,200 tax payer money per ISRAELI CITIZEN.

dude, no offense, but were bitchin about $4 gas and my friends wear second hand jeans.....


but that money is in a form of a loan, like all of the other countries who recieve aid, right? WRONG.
its all GRANTS.



what about private money? ha, plenty more billions since 1949 (Israel's founding) .....in 1957, private funding was 700 million a year. its double that now....

but, why do we do it?? CAUSE WE CAN'T STOP THEM. But our government controls the FEDERAL RESERVE, just tell them to stop......oh wait, no, the jewish coucil OWNS THE FEDERAL RESERVE.
what about politicians, why do they do it if they are not jewish.....cause THEY HAVE NO CHOICE. The LARGEST LOBBY groups are pro-israel. You don't have to support them, but then you won't get their money and guess who will..... who ever is running against you. This is our political culture. thats why every politian, including palin, mccain, obama & joe have stated they "LOVE ISRAEL" ..... you know what, i've traveled around the world, even been to israel, its not that nice. why don't the politians say "I love England" or Acapuco or bahamas or any other freakin' place??? Cause, they must make it known that they won't resist, even though they all admit they wish they didn't have to.



like i said before, i'm not anti-jew.........i'm pro-american.

lets the israeli's deal with their own problems. maybe we can do the same too.



http://www.washington-report.org/htm..._to_israel.htm
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html
http://www.lovearth.net/therealcosto...tforisrael.htm
http://civillibertarian.blogspot.com...l-cost-us.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...o_Israel1.html
http://www.davidduke.com/writings/09-17-01.shtml
http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?Do...3&CategoryId=4

[Epitome22]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

ya, poor things....jews have a history of being persecuted by muslims......like when the, oh wait, that was the christians, and then again in .... wait that was the christians again too...... oh ya, when they unlawfully took over settlements in a country called palistine then spread beyond the borders agreed upon by US and Britan. ya, some muslims did attack them then. ok , ur right, lets just keep on killing 25,000 civilian iraqi's a year....that will teach those palistinians to stay away from their old land.


of course it makes sense, we did it to the native indians, why not the palistinians and the iraqi's and afghans too since they are muslim and look the same, sorta.

thats the spirit, and we wonder why they hate us?

You're being intentionally obtuse. I don't support Israeli terror either but the history of the Jewish people is filled with dealing with Barbarities by Muslims as well as Christians.

[Epitome22]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

my only question is since we defend Isreal till we die, with money, loyality, support, etc. .....

what have they done for us? We wouldn't support them if we don't benefit right? I mean, we have to keep iraq, iran down cause they are threats to us, right? like 9/11 .... when afghans.....errrrr....saudi's living in afghanistan attacked us?

oh, now i remember why we defend Isreal so much........ our televagalists tell us to .... cause christians have a long history of support for the jews, right? well, no, not really, actually, christians have persecuted more jews than any other religion.....


there's got to be a reason......

immigrants come to america and become american, so jews immigrate here and become american too, right?

ya, they do become american, but they don't call america they land, they still refer to israel as their land..... hmmmmm...... so they come here, use us and our resources, act and look american, but they don't believe this is their land..... they have a message from God, they believe they must all return to the the land, so it must be protected.


so wait a minute, does that mean that the Jews who come to america will use america to protect the land they will go back to????

then what happens to america after they leave .... .nothing, its keeps on going the same cause new jews are born who will use america..... what does that mean for america???


wake up people, it means 1/3 of ALL OF OUR FORIEGN AID dollars, 5.2 billion dollars last year went to a country who's population is 0.093% of the world population. what about the other 2/3 of the foriegn aid..... oh that, well another 1/3 went to countries like Eygpt who agree to sign treaties with Israel. we give them money for that too. oh ya, and we just spent 23 million and sent the corp of engineers to build a fence between israel and eygpt. WTF????

"In addition, there is the more than $1.5 billion in private U.S. funds that go to Israel annually in the form of $1 billion in private tax-deductible donations and $500 million in Israeli bonds. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax-deductible contributions to a foreign government, made possible through a number of Jewish charities, does not exist with any other country. Nor do these figures include short- and long-term commercial loans from U.S. banks, which have been as high as $1 billion annually in recent years."


what does all this mean to you? about $23,200 tax payer money per ISRAELI CITIZEN.

dude, no offense, but were bitchin about $4 gas and my friends wear second hand jeans.....


but that money is in a form of a loan, like all of the other countries who recieve aid, right? WRONG.
its all GRANTS.



what about private money? ha, plenty more billions since 1949 (Israel's founding) .....in 1957, private funding was 700 million a year. its double that now....

but, why do we do it?? CAUSE WE CAN'T STOP THEM. But our government controls the FEDERAL RESERVE, just tell them to stop......oh wait, no, the jewish coucil OWNS THE FEDERAL RESERVE.
what about politicians, why do they do it if they are not jewish.....cause THEY HAVE NO CHOICE. The LARGEST LOBBY groups are pro-israel. You don't have to support them, but then you won't get their money and guess who will..... who ever is running against you. This is our political culture. thats why every politian, including palin, mccain, obama & joe have stated they "LOVE ISRAEL" ..... you know what, i've traveled around the world, even been to israel, its not that nice. why don't the politians say "I love England" or Acapuco or bahamas or any other freakin' place??? Cause, they must make it known that they won't resist, even though they all admit they wish they didn't have to.



like i said before, i'm not anti-jew.........i'm pro-american.

lets the israeli's deal with their own problems. maybe we can do the same too.



http://www.washington-report.org/htm..._to_israel.htm
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html
http://www.lovearth.net/therealcosto...tforisrael.htm
http://civillibertarian.blogspot.com...l-cost-us.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...o_Israel1.html
http://www.davidduke.com/writings/09-17-01.shtml
http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?Do...3&CategoryId=4

Ok, on further reflection, you are an anti-semite. Please go jump on a large metal spike.

[kappasigma]

you're right, i should go and die.......


the nerve of me, wanting to end the expoitation of american lives and money.


actually, you should jump on that spike since you're anti-american. who's side are you on?

[DirkFTW]

By anti-zionist, do you mean anti-Israel?

[kappasigma]

look up zionist & you'll have your answer

[kappasigma]

btw, the answer is no. i've actually been to israel.

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

immigrants come to america and become american, so jews immigrate here and become american too, right?

ya, they do become american, but they don't call america they land, they still refer to israel as their land..... hmmmmm...... so they come here, use us and our resources, act and look american, but they don't believe this is their land..... they have a message from God, they believe they must all return to the the land, so it must be protected.

so wait a minute, does that mean that the Jews who come to america will use america to protect the land they will go back to????

then what happens to america after they leave .... .nothing, its keeps on going the same cause new jews are born who will use america..... what does that mean for america???

but, why do we do it?? CAUSE WE CAN'T STOP THEM. But our government controls the FEDERAL RESERVE, just tell them to stop......oh wait, no, the jewish coucil OWNS THE FEDERAL RESERVE.

like i said before, i'm not anti-jew.........i'm pro-american.

oh no, you're not "anti-jew", you are just a sweet patriotic person who believes that "jews..don't believe {america} is their land", "jews use us and our resources", and "the jewish coucil OWNS THE FEDERAL RESERVE."

take your bigotry and prejudice to a site where you can wallow in misinformed hate with the other scum who share your perverse views would ya?

thanks. don't let the door hit you as you leave....

[Underdog]

Orthodox Jews are against Zionism - the Torah forbids the State of Israel...

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Orthodox Jews are against Zionism - the Torah forbids the State of Israel...

and there are orthodox jews who are americans, and probably patriotic americans as well.

of course, as jews are not monolithic, some orthodox jews are zionists, some are not.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

and there are orthodox jews who are americans, and probably patriotic americans as well.

of course, as jews are not monolithic, some orthodox jews are zionists, some are not.

Yeah, it's mostly American Jews who support the state of Israel - ask a Russian Jew what they think about it and you'll get a totally different answer...

I do find it odd, however, that both Obama and McCain have [literally] pledged allegiance to Israel (as did the Bushes and Clintons) - I just wonder how many masters one can serve? At the end of the day, are our leaders looking out for America/Americans first, or are they willing sacrifice OUR security for that of Israel? [because the people who orchestrated 9/11 didn't have any beef with America until Israel was founded...]

And don't get me wrong - we have the same deal with Great Britain too, but Israel is caught up in a long-term war that we've tied ourselves to both diplomatically and financially... What do Americans get out of the deal?

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Yeah, it's mostly American Jews who support the state of Israel - ask a Russian Jew what they think about it and you'll get a totally different answer...

you mean all those thousands of russian jews who emmigrated to israel to excape the anti-semitism in russia?

I do find it odd, however, that both Obama and McCain have [literally] pledged allegiance to Israel (as did the Bushes and Clintons) - I just wonder how many masters one can serve? At the end of the day, are our leaders looking out for America/Americans first, or are they willing sacrifice OUR security for that of Israel? [because the people who orchestrated 9/11 didn't have any beef with America until the Israel was founded...]

there is a sizeable jewish voting element in america, they do need to show that they will act as that group wishes them to. not to mention the evangelical element that has adopted israel....

the two are not mutually exclusive btw, israel is important to america's goals in the middle east.

no, I do not believe there is any need to "sacrifice" america's security for israel's security. if there was a need for that choice between them we're in a very, very bad scene.

I disagreee with the conclusion about the radical islamist not having an issue with america until israel was founded. the philosophy behind their beliefs existed prior to 1947, and as the us is the world leader we always would bear their focus.

And don't get me wrong - we have the same deal with Great Britain too, but Israel is caught up in a long-term war that we've tied ourselves to both diplomatically and financially... What do Americans get out of the deal?

we could benefit once the issue is resolved (may that happen very soon). there is actually a chance that may have some legs, the saudi proposal seems to have some life to it.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

you mean all those thousands of russian jews who emmigrated to israel to excape the anti-semitism in russia?

No, I mean the millions of Jews who stayed in Russia and rode it out (like Jews always have - don't underestimate the power of tradition in this culture...)

Originally Posted by Mavdog

there is a sizeable jewish voting element in america, they do need to show that they will act as that group wishes them to.

I know - I'm one of them... I have family in Israel, but I don't think their politics benefit anyone but the Zionist extremists who run that country... The government/clergy benefits at the expense of the common Jew (not a new theme in our history...)

To give a (very) loose Christian-equivalent to the internal Jewish strife over Zionism: how would the common American Baptist respond to a Mormon becoming president of the United States then declaring that all American Christians must now practice as Mormons?

Originally Posted by Mavdog

I disagreee with the conclusion about the radical islamist not having an issue with america until israel was founded. the philosophy behind their beliefs existed prior to 1947, and as the us is the world leader we always would bear their focus.

Not true - both Osama bin Laden (and to a lesser degree, Saddam Hussein) were on the US payroll up through the 1980s... Hell, radical Islamic groups even helped the Allies drive back the Nazis in the region during WWII... Our leaders and theirs had mutual use for each other until political posturing in Israel started driving an ever-increasing wedge between the two...

Originally Posted by Mavdog

we could benefit once the issue is resolved (may that happen very soon). there is actually a chance that may have some legs, the saudi proposal seems to have some life to it.

We've heard this before, but who knows? Maybe this time it will actually happen (we can only hope/pray...)

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I know - I'm one of them... I have family in Israel, but I don't think their politics benefit anyone but the Zionist extremists who run that country... The government/clergy benefits at the expense of the common Jew (not a new theme in our history...)

we're pretty much in agreement, the extemely observant in israel have way too much sway, and have hindered the peace efforts imo.

Not true - both Osama bin Laden (and to a lesser degree, Saddam Hussein) were on the US payroll up through the 1980s... Hell, radical Islamic groups even helped the Allies drive back the Nazis in the region during WWII... Our leaders and theirs had mutual use for each other until political posturing in Israel started driving an ever-increasing wedge between the two...

as you point out, hussein was our friend long into the 1980s, and the afganis in the 1970s as well, which is where the 9/11 attackers came from, and of course the 1970s and 1980s were both decades after the formation of the state of israel.

it is the extremism that bin laden later embraced, and that extremism was a rejection of western civilization as a whole, that brought us where we are now. it wasn't until after 9/11 that bin laden found it convenient to talk about the palestinians and how he was fighting for them.

[kappasigma]

can someone please tell me one benefit AMERICA has had from all of our support to Israel? anyone?

[Arne]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

can someone please tell me one benefit AMERICA has had from all of our support to Israel? anyone?

It makes you feel anti-anti-semite. :-)

[Silk Smoov]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Yeah, it's mostly American Jews who support the state of Israel - ask a Russian Jew what they think about it and you'll get a totally different answer...

I do find it odd, however, that both Obama and McCain have [literally] pledged allegiance to Israel (as did the Bushes and Clintons) - I just wonder how many masters one can serve? At the end of the day, are our leaders looking out for America/Americans first, or are they willing sacrifice OUR security for that of Israel? [because the people who orchestrated 9/11 didn't have any beef with America until Israel was founded...]

And don't get me wrong - we have the same deal with Great Britain too, but Israel is caught up in a long-term war that we've tied ourselves to both diplomatically and financially... What do Americans get out of the deal?

Just to be honest, I think America defending Israel has more to do with biblical than anything else. So, I am in support of it. IMO

[Silk Smoov]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

we're pretty much in agreement, the extemely observant in israel have way too much sway, and have hindered the peace efforts imo.



as you point out, hussein was our friend long into the 1980s, and the afganis in the 1970s as well, which is where the 9/11 attackers came from, and of course the 1970s and 1980s were both decades after the formation of the state of israel.

it is the extremism that bin laden later embraced, and that extremism was a rejection of western civilization as a whole, that brought us where we are now. it wasn't until after 9/11 that bin laden found it convenient to talk about the palestinians and how he was fighting for them.

Questions and comments to add to this conversation:

Do most Americans understand the full relationship we have had with Hussein and Bin Liden? I think this is an issue that we all should know about in order to start understand the working of the hate towards the West.

For the most part, we can all say that the United States put Hussein in power. We choose him, gave him weapons and mustard gas and all the weapons he wanted in order to defeat Iran. After Hussein used the mustard gas to defeat Iran, he kept the extras and used it to keep law and order in Iraq. He ruled Iraq with a heavy hand, and for the most part that tactic worked in keeping piece in Iraq, and it also kept the terrorists out of Iraq because they feared Hussein. This also meant that Hussein controled the central oil flow, so that made him a very rich and powerful man in the world. Once the United Stated turned their back on Hussein, he was labeled a terriorist. Could there be more reasons on why they labled him a terrorist? Dont know, but I do know we backed him and put him in power.

As far as Bin Liden:

Bin Liden was one of the leaders of the Taliban, which was an ally to the United States. Once Russian invaded Afgan area, we trained, funded and provided weapons to the Taliban to help defeat Russian. Once that war was over, Russian left and Afgan area was destroyed due to the war. What happened afterwards? I dont know, but some people say the United States just walked away, while the Taliban and the Afgan area was left to rebuild on its own. So, since they were so poor, only thing to do to get money was to cultivate even more Opium, which means they became one of the biggest producers of Opium. In turn, Taliban was upset the US left them, so they became angry at the west. Is there more to this story? I am pretty sure.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

Just to be honest, I think America defending Israel has more to do with biblical than anything else. So, I am in support of it. IMO

That's gotta be the stupidest thing I've ever heard...

HOW does a primarily-Christian nation siding with Jews against Muslims have "more to do with biblical than anything else"??? (especially when the Jews turned their back on Jesus for heresy and the Muslims didn't even exist when the Bible was assembled!)

[Silk Smoov]

Originally Posted by Underdog

That's gotta be the stupidest thing I've ever heard...

HOW does a primarily-Christian nation siding with Jews against Muslims have "more to do with biblical than anything else"??? (especially when the Jews turned their back on Jesus for heresy and the Muslims didn't even exist when the Bible was assembled!)

Clearly, your response was the dumbest thing you could have said in a response. Unless you are NOT a Christian and DONT read your bible. I guess you dont know who the chosen people are and how Holy the land is do you? Read your bible more b4 insisting on someone being dumb to think that the United States protects Israel because of some biblical backing.