Am i crazy for thinking this?(This should make Ape Happy)

[Nash13]

Dallas trades: SG Jerry Stackhouse (14.1 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 2.5 apg in 30.2 minutes)
PG Jason Terry (9.9 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 3.6 apg in 25.7 minutes)
Dallas receives: PG Gary Payton (11.2 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 6.5 apg in 32.7 minutes)
C Raef LaFrentz (11.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 27.5 minutes)
SG Jiri Welsch (8.6 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 21.0 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +7.0 ppg, +8.3 rpg, and +3.3 apg.

Boston trades: PG Gary Payton (11.2 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 6.5 apg in 32.7 minutes)
C Raef LaFrentz (11.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 27.5 minutes)
SG Jiri Welsch (8.6 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 21.0 minutes)
Boston receives: SG Jerry Stackhouse (14.1 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 2.5 apg in 30.2 minutes)
PG Jason Terry (9.9 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 3.6 apg in 25.7 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -7.0 ppg, -8.3 rpg, and -3.3 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Payton/Harris & Armstrong
Finley/Daniels
Howard/Welsch
Dirk/Lafrentz
Dampier/Bradley & Lafrentz

This would easily make us a better passing team. We would have our backup 4 and 5.

Insane?

[endtroducing]

Not insane, but Payton would not mesh well with Dirk.

[Max Power]

Insane?

Yes.

Raef was ineffective his last go-around here so why would it work this time? Payton would never fit in here - he wouldn't be able to fit in Nellie's style. Welsch is another swingman, why do we need another?

[LRB]

Just say no. This trade really doesn't help us in the long run. As for the short run, any help would be fairly insignificant when the adjustment for new players was taken into account.

[Nash13]

Originally posted by: Max Power

Yes.

Raef was ineffective his last go-around here so why would it work this time? Payton would never fit in here - he wouldn't be able to fit in Nellie's style. Welsch is another swingman, why do we need another?

We would need Raef to play significant minutes at the 4 or 5 as opposed to when he first came. He could be effective for about 10-15mpg as opposed to 25-30.

As far as Payton goes, i think if he were on this team, it'll look something like the old Supersonics team of the mid-90s. Payton is showing in Boston that he can still play like he use to. He may not be the Glove anymore, but is still good enough. Knowing his age, he's not long-term, but neither is Terry. Another thing about Payton is he could be a scoring threat in crunch time as opposed to our current points.

[madape]

Raef contributed to the best defensive Maverick team of all time. He also helped lead us to our most sucessful season in terms of regular season wins, and he helped propel us into the Western Conference Finals.

Is it any coincidence that the year he left is the year it all fell apart? I don't think so. I think Raef had a profound impact on this team. He was a big reason for our success.

I would love to have him back.

[madape]

Raef had a 12 point, 9 rebound, 5 block game last night.

For those of you who care, he now averages more points, more rebounds, and more blocks than Dampier in fewer minutes.

[DirkN003]

I don't think your crazy but while were at it why don't we trade Finley for Paul Pierce? DONE

[Gator Mike]

Dallas trades: SG Jerry Stackhouse (14.1 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 2.5 apg in 30.2 minutes)
PG Jason Terry (9.9 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 3.6 apg in 25.7 minutes)
Dallas receives: PG Gary Payton (11.2 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 6.5 apg in 32.7 minutes)
C Raef LaFrentz (11.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 27.5 minutes)
SG Jiri Welsch (8.6 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 21.0 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +7.0 ppg, +8.3 rpg, and +3.3 apg.

Why include Stackhouse and LaFrentz?

Why would the Celtics want Stackhouse when they've already got Paul Pierce and Ricky Davis?

Why would they want to give up their starting PF and not get a big man in return?

Terry for Payton and Walter McCarty works better for both teams, IMO.

Payton's a better PG than Terry is, and McCarty can be a backup swing forward. And the Celtics wouldn't be opposed to getting a decent player like Terry for someone whos contract is up at the end of the year, whereas they'd want NO PART of Stackhouse.

[jayC]

I think the real problem with Raef was Nellie? Did Raef ever play inside when he was a mav. As far as the most significant player on that team was nash. Damp makes less money five years 59 million without the bonuses of All-Star appearences. I disagree Dampier is a force. For my money we need a second banana on this team. Stackhouse is good but he isn't an effective robin. Neither is Finley, howard and daniels are too young. Allen Iverson might be an interesting fit on this club. The mavs could give the Sixers young talented swingmen in return for AI. I believe AI has matured and is ready to be the leader of this team. Terry and Stack for AI works.

The sixers:
Terry
Green
Stackhouse
Andre I.
Jackson

The mavs
AI/Harris
Daniels/Howard
Finley/Daniels
Dirk/Henderson
Dampier/Booth

Of course we all could be just knee jerking. And the mavs could have a strong second half.

[orangedays]

Originally posted by: jayC
I think the real problem with Raef was Nellie? Did Raef ever play inside when he was a mav. As far as the most significant player on that team was nash. Damp makes less money five years 59 million without the bonuses of All-Star appearences. I disagree Dampier is a force. For my money we need a second banana on this team. Stackhouse is good but he isn't an effective robin. Neither is Finley, howard and daniels are too young. Allen Iverson might be an interesting fit on this club. The mavs could give the Sixers young talented swingmen in return for AI. I believe AI has matured and is ready to be the leader of this team. Terry and Stack for AI works.

The sixers:
Terry
Green
Stackhouse
Andre I.
Jackson

The mavs
AI/Harris
Daniels/Howard
Finley/Daniels
Dirk/Henderson
Dampier/Booth

Of course we all could be just knee jerking. And the mavs could have a strong second half.

Volume/Low percentage shooter with an attitude? I doubt AI would mesh well with this team. He'd just bring more one on one play on the perimeter which we already have tons of, and I don't think he could run this offense. Sure he can handle the ball but can he distribute it on the floor when there are already 2 guys who demand it as the 1 and 2 options (Dirk and Fin respectively)? Plus his durability is kind of coming into question, he's not a young guy anymore and his body continues to take a beating. What happens if he goes down? We're left with Armstrong and Harris running the point. Ugh. Plus, I don't know if we want a guy like him to 'lead' this Mavs squad. He's a coach killer.

[Poindexter Einstein]

The problem with Raef is that he is a PF. His numbers in Boston are at PF. We have a PF that puts up wayyyyyyyy better numbers than LaFrentz.

When we tried to move Raef to C, he sucked. Dampier is 100 times better as a center.

[mavs413]

How Bout'
Dallas trades:
PF Alan Henderson
SG Marquis Daniels
Dallas receives:
PG Stephon Marbury

Toronto trades:
SF Vince Carter
Toronto receives:
PF Alan Henderson
SG Marquis Daniels

New York trades:
PG Stephon Marbury
New York receives:
SF Vince Carter
TRADE ACCEPTED

[Nash13]

413, although Maubury would be a good point for this team, Thomas made it clear he will not trade Maubury, not even for Vince.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
The problem with Raef is that he is a PF. His numbers in Boston are at PF. We have a PF that puts up wayyyyyyyy better numbers than LaFrentz.

When we tried to move Raef to C, he sucked. Dampier is 100 times better as a center.

Maybe they'll listen to you. I've pointed that out three or four times and I get ignored every time.

[madape]

Raef was a good enough center to propel us to the Western Conference finals. He was good enough to make that team the best defensive team in the history of the Dallas Mavericks.

He's a seven foot shotblocker. What makes you think he's not a center? The fact that his offensive game is based more on outside shooting than it is inside power moves? On defense, he's clearly a center. On offense... well if he's not a center, then he's not a power forward either.

Raef is a center with a good outside shot.

[Max Power]

Raef is no more of a center than Dirk is. Raef CAN play center but not effectively enough for a good team.

It's amazing that you think that Raef is responsible for our best season when he only played 69 games and only played 23.3 minutes in the games he did play. We went 12-1 in the games he missed and 48-21 in the games he played. He DID average almost 4 fouls a game in the limited minutes he played though. That's an amazing impact.

Raef averaged more minutes in the playoffs and yet got less boards per game and less points per game than his regular season "efforts". He also shot an amazing 43% from the field and 20% from three point land. I think the word you are looking for is SPARE.

[EricaLubarsky]

9.3ppg, 4.6rpg, 1.4apg, 0.76bpg in 23mpg

His final year was one of only two years where he shot 40%. He's a career 36.4%

As for the best defensive team in Mavs history- well in modern history we arent doing too badly in many categories this year and there were no fewer than three seasons where the Mavs defense was better.

2002-2003 we allowed opponents to shoot 43.8% from the field. So far in 2004-2005 we are keeping opponents to 42.4% (that with that pile of poop, Dampier). When FG% is corrected (into EFg), we allowed 47.3% shooting. This year we are allowing 45.5%

In 2003-2004 we blocked 6.7% of shots. This year we are blocking 6.9

[Poindexter Einstein]

People call Raef a "center" but that doesn't make him one. Why did he play C in Dallas? Because he was big and sorta bulky and thus looked more like a C than Dirk, and the Mavs didnt have a C. Dirk was the PF and thus Raef was supposedly a C. But that is why he was traded - cause he never played like a center (and they Mavs already had a MUCH better PF than Raef.)

But Raef's game is that of a PF - it is outside oriented, not low post oriented, on both ends of the floor. Is he playing C in Boston? Nope, he is playing PF. Put his stats into the PF listings, and you will see just how ineffective he really is.

[kg_veteran]

Raef as a starting center was part of the reason that this team, as constructed in its 2002-2003 version, had about maxed out its potential.

The clear goal going into the summer of 2003 was to try and find a big guy who could play the center spot more effectively than Raef could.

"We need somebody who can rebound, somebody we can throw the ball [to] in the low post and give us some inside presence. That's basically what we don't have. Everywhere else we're pretty good." - Dirk Nowitzki, 6-2-03

"There's no secrets. You can see them, as well as I, the holes that need some work. We have to do something about our athleticism in the frontline [and] about our rebounding problems in the frontline." - Don Nelson, 6-2-03

"If they're looking at me to be an enforcer or to be a dominator underneath the goal, I never have been that and probably won't be that," LaFrentz said. "So get somebody else in here to fill that spot." - Raef LaFrentz, 7-20-03

[Azn_Baller101]

what if we did trade for him and payton but had raef play pf behind dirk? could he actually be effective when fresh playing for about 11-14 mins?

[Nash13]

Maybe they'll listen to you, i've mentioned that 3 or 4 times and nobody listens.

[Gator Mike]

Originally posted by: Azn_Baller101
what if we did trade for him and payton but had raef play pf behind dirk? could he actually be effective when fresh playing for about 11-14 mins?

FWIW, this trade works on the RealGM trade checker:

To Dallas:
PF/F Raef LaFrentz
PG Gary Payton

To Boston:
PG Jason Terry
PF Alan Henderson

This trade also gets the Celtics slightly under the cap for next season... they might actually be willing to do something like this.

[Poindexter Einstein]

Raef's contract is too hefty to grab him as a "permanent 10-15 mpg backup"

[Quetzalcoatl]

I don't like any if those trades. LaFrentz played well in Denver, but not with the Mavs. Maybe it was Nelson Fault?