Im sorry guys, I dont see Kidd leading this team anywhere

[SMC0007]

[SMC0007]

like anyone could even know that...

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

like anyone could even know that...

I laughed.

[EricaLubarsky]

Lakers have the best chance of making it to the finals.
Fisher 7ppg, 2.7apg, 2.5rpg in 27mpg. Oh, but he can hit the three, right? Only at 36%
Kidd 9ppg, 9.2apg, 5.3rpg in 36mpg...and shoots 40% from three

You can make the argument that Kidd is slowing down, sure. Just dont say a team needs a scoring point to win. Its ridiculous.

Rondo 14ppg
Gibson 6ppg
Fisher 7ppg

[iella]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Lakers have the best chance of making it to the finals.
Fisher 7ppg, 2.7apg, 2.5rpg in 27mpg. Oh, but he can hit the three, right? Only at 36%
Kidd 9ppg, 9.2apg, 5.3rpg in 36mpg...and shoots 40% from three

You can make the argument that Kidd is slowing down, sure. Just dont say a team needs a scoring point to win. Its ridiculous.

Rondo 14ppg
Gibson 6ppg
Fisher 7ppg

QFT. If only the numbers were enough to shut people up. Unfortunately...

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Lakers have the best chance of making it to the finals.
Fisher 7ppg, 2.7apg, 2.5rpg in 27mpg. Oh, but he can hit the three, right? Only at 36%
Kidd 9ppg, 9.2apg, 5.3rpg in 36mpg...and shoots 40% from three

You can make the argument that Kidd is slowing down, sure. Just dont say a team needs a scoring point to win. Its ridiculous.

Rondo 14ppg
Gibson 6ppg
Fisher 7ppg

A team might not necessarily nead a scoring point to win, but I might argue that this one does. Or if not a scoring point guard, at least a solid scoring guard at all, which is something this team hasn't had since Michael Finley was in his prime.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

A team might not necessarily nead a scoring point to win, but I might argue that this one does.

I challenge you to do so.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

I challenge you to do so.

I just did.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I just did.

Cute. But an argument and a statement are two different things.

[CadBane]

No one needs a scoring PG. They do need a scoring GUARD though. (Kobe, Wade, Allen, Prime RIP, ect.)

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by CadBane

No one needs a scoring PG. They do need a scoring GUARD though. (Kobe, Wade, Allen, Prime RIP, ect.)

Exactly.

[dude1394]

I would say we need a scoring guard also. We also need a smart point guard and a leader at that spot also. I'm not sure devin was it.

If we did have a ginobbli-type player this team would be really, really good imo. And that would be with Jkiddo.

[Lor20]

what you need... I think... is a ball handler that can score.
at the end of games you dont see the lakers run plays through fisher - they give kobe the ball.... the cavs give it to lebron - the celtics often give it to pierce, spurts have parker^. they can all drive to the basket or shoot off the dribble if there is no open man.
We dont really have anyone who can do all three. Kidd can pass buth neither shoot nor drive, josh can drive but cant pass and isnt a great shooter, terry can shoot but cant create for himself and is not a great passer or driver, barea is similar to terry in that regard.
Dirk obviously cant be the guy to bring the ball up the floor.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by Lor20

what you need... I think... is a ball handler that can score.
at the end of games you dont see the lakers run plays through fisher - they give kobe the ball.... the cavs give it to lebron - the celtics often give it to pierce, spurts have parker^. they can all drive to the basket or shoot off the dribble if there is no open man.
We dont really have anyone who can do all three. Kidd can pass buth neither shoot nor drive, josh can drive but cant pass and isnt a great shooter, terry can shoot but cant create for himself and is not a great passer or driver, barea is similar to terry in that regard.
Dirk obviously cant be the guy to bring the ball up the floor.

Huge negative, when the game is on the line, no one can handle the rock and get that bucket. Considering this, it's a wonder we're on a 10 game 1 point winning streak, what the longest since 59-60? Total team effort. A block by Marion, a fadeaway by Dirk, a Damp scare, total team effort, someone's contributed in some way. Kidd had that lob to Dirk. Would definitely like to see if we can swing a deal for Iggy or Martin.

[Dirkadirkastan]

At the end of games, we're running the ball through Dirk. Not Kidd, Howard, Terry, Barea, Martin, Iguodala, or Butler. Dirk is the reason we win so many close games.

[Bathouse Bear]

I still dont think Jason Kidd will lead this team anywhere.

We got a whopping 3 points from Kidd last night and we got a whopping 8 points and 6 assists on 30% shooting through this series.

With those type of numbers im sure the rest of the NBA is shaking in their boots.

You guys have totally made me change my mind.

Jason Kidd is awesome.

[Dirkadirkastan]

You know what's really annoying? When somebody creates a pessimistic diarrhea thread and it becomes their own personal favorite thread. Then they bump it every time something goes wrong with an "I told you so" as if they get some sort of self-satisfaction in their favorite team losing.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

You know what's really annoying? When somebody creates a pessimistic diarrhea thread and it becomes their own personal favorite thread. Then they bump it every time something goes wrong with an "I told you so" as if they get some sort of self-satisfaction in their favorite team losing.

Dude, he had a valid point when others thought he was out of line. Don't be a pissy loser.

[sefant77]

Kidd can lead you to a title.

Just dont pair him in the backcourt with player types like Barea and Terry. And reduce his minutes.

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Kidd can lead you to a title.

Just dont pair him in the backcourt with player types like Barea and Terry. And reduce his minutes.

Please let's stop saying this. As pathetic as Kidd was in the playoffs, I still know he can be a great contributor to a championship team if he's rested through the regular season. But we all know he can't "Lead" a team to a title. Come on now.

[sefant77]

My fault, with leading i meant as playmaker, not as THE cornerstone beside Dirk.

[jthig32]

Would someone have a point if they started a thread stating that Dirk couldn't lead a team to the title because he doesn't play good enough defense? Because that's the type of point Bathouse was making.

Jason Kidd had a bad series, no doubt. And we're starting to have work leak out that might help explain why he did. But over the course of the season, Jason Kidd was a MAJOR driving force behind this team and their 55 wins.

You can obviously pick apart his faults and point to what he doesn't do, as you can with every player, but unless your position is that the Mavs need a top 5 PG in the NBA to compete, complaining about Jason Kidd is a waste of time. He's one of the positives on this team, not one of the problems.

[Bathouse Bear]

Jason Kidd had a bad series, no doubt. And we're starting to have work leak out that might help explain why he did.

Thats the problem right there.

Every series Jason Kidd has played in a Mavs uniform this is what we have gotten from him.

Look at his results against New Orleans, San Antonio, Denver and San Antonio and they are beyond pathetic.

You Jason Kidd fans are acting like the San Antonio series was an anomaly when I knew 9 points 6 assists on 30% shooting was all we were gonna get from this guy.......because thats all he has done in the past.

You can obviously pick apart his faults and point to what he doesn't do, as you can with every player, but unless your position is that the Mavs need a top 5 PG in the NBA to compete, complaining about Jason Kidd is a waste of time. He's one of the positives on this team, not one of the problems.

Jason Kidd is the major problem on this team. We dont need a top 5 point guard, but we do need a point guard that can play good perimeter defense, and can score by creating his own shot.

The fact that so many people just ignore every single stat and still think Kidd is good for this team is mind blowing.

I knew this team wasnt going anywhere with Jason Kidd as our point guard and to keep it simple its because he cant score and he cant play defense.

You can survive if your PG is not a huge scorer, but he has to be a non-scorer while driving to the basket which exposes the defense for your other scorers. Granted, you have to finish enough that the defense respects your drive, but you can definitely dish more then score (i.e. see Kidd's games from 10 years ago). The fundamental problem was Kidd NEVER showed any drive to the basket in this series.

Nothing against Barea or Roddy B , but the reason they looked like they were playing at such a high level was that they were the only guards consistently driving and forcing the defenses' hand which allowed them to score or open it up for others.

You cant win in the Western Conference with Jason Kidd.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Bathouse Bear

Thats the problem right there.

Every series Jason Kidd has played in a Mavs uniform this is what we have gotten from him.

Look at his results against New Orleans, San Antonio, Denver and San Antonio and they are beyond pathetic.

You Jason Kidd fans are acting like the San Antonio series was an anomaly when I knew 9 points 6 assists on 30% shooting was all we were gonna get from this guy.......because thats all he has done in the past.

He shot 46% from the field and 45% from three in last year's playoffs. Kidd was good in last year's playoffs. You have no idea what you're talking about.

And Jason Kidd is a quality defender. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know anything about basketball. He does struggle with quick PG's at times, but he guards SG's very well, and his overall team defense, the flexibility he provides in being able to guard different positions, and his ball hawking combine to make his an asset defensively.

Obviously Kidd would be an even better player if he could provide more pressure offensively. But his ability to hit threes helps make up for that deficiency. Having a deficiency doesn't automatically make you a bad player. Every player has things he doesn't do well. Shawn Marion provides zero offensive pressure of any kind, but he's a big asset because of what he brings defensively. Kidd is no different.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Obviously Kidd would be an even better player if he could provide more pressure offensively. But his ability to hit threes helps make up for that deficiency. Having a deficiency doesn't automatically make you a bad player. Every player has things he doesn't do well. Shawn Marion provides zero offensive pressure of any kind, but he's a big asset because of what he brings defensively. Kidd is no different.

This is a very fundamental concept that people seem to have a lot of difficulty understanding. I've said it several times, but once you move out of that very upper tier of players (and I'm talking Lebron, Kobe...that's about it), every single player in the NBA has at least one significant weakness. I don't understand why people complain about "so and so can't do X" when he does Y and Z really, really well.

The underlying assumption here, of course, is that a PG needs to be able to regularly penetrate and score to be effective, which is absolute nonsense.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by Bathouse Bear

Thats the problem right there.

Every series Jason Kidd has played in a Mavs uniform this is what we have gotten from him.

Look at his results against New Orleans, San Antonio, Denver and San Antonio and they are beyond pathetic.

You Jason Kidd fans are acting like the San Antonio series was an anomaly when I knew 9 points 6 assists on 30% shooting was all we were gonna get from this guy.......because thats all he has done in the past.




Jason Kidd is the major problem on this team. We dont need a top 5 point guard, but we do need a point guard that can play good perimeter defense, and can score by creating his own shot.

The fact that so many people just ignore every single stat and still think Kidd is good for this team is mind blowing.

I knew this team wasnt going anywhere with Jason Kidd as our point guard and to keep it simple its because he cant score and he cant play defense.

You can survive if your PG is not a huge scorer, but he has to be a non-scorer while driving to the basket which exposes the defense for your other scorers. Granted, you have to finish enough that the defense respects your drive, but you can definitely dish more then score (i.e. see Kidd's games from 10 years ago). The fundamental problem was Kidd NEVER showed any drive to the basket in this series.

Nothing against Barea or Roddy B , but the reason they looked like they were playing at such a high level was that they were the only guards consistently driving and forcing the defenses' hand which allowed them to score or open it up for others.

You cant win in the Western Conference with Jason Kidd.

Two words: Derek Fisher

There, I just disproved everything you have said, can say, and will say about being unable to win with Kidd as your point guard.

[Murphy3]

Jason Kidd is overrated. I like Kidd, but his offensive weaknesses are amplified on this team at this point. Do I think he can be a big part of a championship team? Yes, absolutely. However, there has to be more options on the court or his weaknesses on offense are just going to continue to be magnified and his strengths will not be properly utilized.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Jason Kidd is overrated. I like Kidd, but his offensive weaknesses are amplified on this team at this point. Do I think he can be a big part of a championship team? Yes, absolutely. However, there has to be more options on the court or his weaknesses on offense are just going to continue to be magnified and his strengths will not be properly utilized.

The team as a whole was broken offensively way too often in the half court. So everyone's weaknesses are magnified. If Devin Harris was on the team HIS weaknesses would be magnified because we'd spend way too much time not having anyone on the court that would knock down an open three point shot.

At least with Kidd he eases the problem by getting sub-par offensive players easy shots at times.

And I think he was a great fit defensively and could continue to be if Roddy is a major part of the rotation next year. Kidd's ability to guard SG's is a major factor in allowing players like Jet and Roddy to play SG and not get killed defensively.

I'm not saying you can't do better than Kidd at PG and I'm not trying to say he's the perfect fit for the players we have around him. But the idea that you can't win with Jason Kidd as your PG is absurd.

[Murphy3]

I concur. If he's your PG going forward, then you obviously have to do what you can to make sure his weaknesses aren't amplified on the offensive end of the court. That's all.. If you can't do that, then Kidd probably isn't a good fit. Heck, if you can't do that, then the team isn't going anywhere anyway.

[Bathouse Bear]

And Jason Kidd is a quality defender. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know anything about basketball. He does struggle with quick PG's at times, but he guards SG's very well, and his overall team defense, the flexibility he provides in being able to guard different positions, and his ball hawking combine to make his an asset defensively.

Im the one that doesnt know what Im talking about?

Did you not see George Hill repeatedly pump fake, go uncontested to the middle of the floor and hit a 17 foot jumper.

Okay......

Jason Kidd has been murdered by the opposing point guard in every series he has played in a Mavs uniform.

Having to hide him on defense means we have to have JJB or JET guard the Tony Parkers of the world....which only weakens their legs come the 4th quarter.

How the hell has Jason Kidd made this Mavs team better?

We are at such a disadvantage every time we have to face the Chauncey Billups, Tony Parkers, Deron Williams, Chris Pauls and Steve Nashs.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Bathouse Bear

Im the one that doesnt know what Im talking about?

Did you not see George Hill repeatedly pump fake, go uncontested to the middle of the floor and hit a 17 foot jumper.

Okay......

Jason Kidd has been murdered by the opposing point guard in every series he has played in a Mavs uniform.

Having to hide him on defense means we have to have JJB or JET guard the Tony Parkers of the world....which only weakens their legs come the 4th quarter.

How the hell has Jason Kidd made this Mavs team better?

We are at such a disadvantage every time we have to face the Chauncey Billups, Tony Parkers, Deron Williams, Chris Pauls and Steve Nashs.

Having him means that Jason Terry has been able to play SG exclusively without having to guard big guards. And it will happen the same way with Roddy.

If you can't see how Jason Kidd helps this team then you just don't know much about basketball. Or you're just too jaded in your view to look at the positives and how they balance out the negatives of a player.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by Bathouse Bear

Im the one that doesnt know what Im talking about?

Did you not see George Hill repeatedly pump fake, go uncontested to the middle of the floor and hit a 17 foot jumper.

Okay......

Jason Kidd has been murdered by the opposing point guard in every series he has played in a Mavs uniform.

Having to hide him on defense means we have to have JJB or JET guard the Tony Parkers of the world....which only weakens their legs come the 4th quarter.

How the hell has Jason Kidd made this Mavs team better?

We are at such a disadvantage every time we have to face the Chauncey Billups, Tony Parkers, Deron Williams, Chris Pauls and Steve Nashs.

Kidd didn't defend a lot of Hill. It was JJB and Roddy. Of course Hill scored some. But 75% of his shots this series were jumpers due to crisp ball movement exploiting the Mavericks zone (being played because of Barea) and Hill making the shot over the contest of a Maverick player. Sometimes, instead of shooting a three (especially when he had hit 4/4 to that point or some such) he would pump fake past Kidd who had come sprinting in to try to contest and drill an open jumper. That's not really Kidd's fault. That's the zone's fault.

And Manu scored on Marion. Duncan scored on Dampier/Haywood. Hill scoring on Kidd doesn't make him a bad defender.

Did you realize he also had 14 steals in 6 games? Yeah. Pretty crazy.

[Mavericks Rockets Fan]

Originally Posted by tcat075

Kidd didn't defend a lot of Hill. It was JJB and Roddy. Of course Hill scored some. But 75% of his shots this series were jumpers due to crisp ball movement exploiting the Mavericks zone (being played because of Barea) and Hill making the shot over the contest of a Maverick player. Sometimes, instead of shooting a three (especially when he had hit 4/4 to that point or some such) he would pump fake past Kidd who had come sprinting in to try to contest and drill an open jumper. That's not really Kidd's fault. That's the zone's fault.

And Manu scored on Marion. Duncan scored on Dampier/Haywood. Hill scoring on Kidd doesn't make him a bad defender.

Did you realize he also had 14 steals in 6 games? Yeah. Pretty crazy.

There is no point in arguing with the likes of Bathouse Bear. Because there is only one comparison he cares about: How many points did our PG score vs How many points did their PG score....

[kchan]

Originally Posted by Mavericks Rockets Fan

There is no point in arguing with the likes of Bathouse Bear. Because there is only one comparison he cares about: How many points did our PG score vs How many points did their PG score....

Its not just him, its almost everybody. Its a scoring PG's era now, and most everybody sees that if this kid scores 25 a night, then he must be an awesome PG! Forgetting that PGs arent really meant to score (its just a plus). A great PG can be seen not by how many points he scores or by how many assists he makes, its by controlling the tempo.

I agree though that Kidd ran out of gas in the series, and it was obvious as the season was ending, but that's all the way because of Carlisle's stupid rotations.

[Mavericks Rockets Fan]

Bathouse Bear, do you have a trade or free agent in mind that you would think solves the problem?

[druid4rest]

Lets just face it, the spurs are to better team and they always have and will be. As dirty and as arrogant as we are u would have thought we would have won a championship before. Enjoy watching the spurs the rest of the playoffs and try not to choke on your pint of river water.

[Mavericks Rockets Fan]

Originally Posted by druid4rest

Lets just face it, the spurs are to better team and they always have and will be. As dirty and as arrogant as we are u would have thought we would have won a championship before. Enjoy watching the spurs the rest of the playoffs and try not to choke on your pint of river water.

They were better than us when we beat them in 7?

[Bathouse Bear]

If you can't see how Jason Kidd helps this team then you just don't know much about basketball. Or you're just too jaded in your view to look at the positives and how they balance out the negatives of a player.

How has Jason Kidd made this mavs team better in the playoffs?

Please explain it to me since I dont know that much about basketball.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by Bathouse Bear

How has Jason Kidd made this mavs team better in the playoffs?

Please explain it to me since I dont know that much about basketball.

He's made them much better. Because, you know, they wouldn't even be IN the playoffs without his consistent threes and establishing of the offense and overall leadership.

[Bathouse Bear]

they wouldn't even be IN the playoffs without his consistent threes and establishing of the offense and overall leadership.

What the f*** does that mean...and if this is a plus....where was it the last two weeks against the Spurs?

Where was it the last two years?