What for Phoenix

[Xylus]

These are the Suns' untouchables:

Nash
Bell
Amare
Barbosa

Anyone else is up for grabs. I think the Suns are going to do whatever it takes with the remaining roster to get Kevin Garnett. If you have Garnett and Amare in the frontcourt, it won't matter who plays the 3-spot.

And yeah, I think Marion is gone.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

He implicitly does. He mentions the Dan Tony quote about Phoenix having more talent than San Antonio, and then he goes on to talk about how Nash is playing with:

1. Another member of the All-NBA First Team;
2. Another All-Star/Defensive Player of the Year Candidate;
3. The Sixth Man of the Year; and
4. A member of the All-Defensive Team.

What other superstar in the league has teammates with those credentials? None of them.

Okay, fine. For the sake of argument I'll agree that we can't take that bold claim of his out of context.

So, Nash is playing with Amare, Marion, and Barbosa--and their credentials.

Duncan is playing with Parker and Ginobili, and Bowen, and guys like Finley and Horry and depth in the frontcourt.

I'm not ready to concede that the hardware Amare and Marion and Barbosa have make them a stronger supporting cast than Parker and Ginobili and Bowen and Horry and Finley.

It's probably a futile exercise, anyway, in that comparing a PG and and a PF--even if we are talking about transcendent players at their respective positions--is a difficult task and one fraught with inherent inequities to begin with.

It is a bit of a simplification, but I think his point remains the same: Nash should either be criticized just as harshly as Nowitzki has been, or his supporters should acknowledge that he's not as good as they claim he is.

Well, as long as we are taking into account the other 23 players in the game, shouldn't we compare the relative strengths of San Antonio and Golden State as opponents?

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by Xylus

These are the Suns' untouchables:

Nash
Bell
Amare
Barbosa

Anyone else is up for grabs. I think the Suns are going to do whatever it takes with the remaining roster to get Kevin Garnett. If you have Garnett and Amare in the frontcourt, it won't matter who plays the 3-spot.

And yeah, I think Marion is gone.

Umm...other than that, who else do they REALLY have? Marion and Diaw. you just basically said roughly 70 percent of the team is untouchable.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Umm...other than that, who else do they REALLY have? Marion and Diaw. you just basically said roughly 70 percent of the team is untouchable.

Nobody's taking Daiw's contract but if they're offering Marion and three first rounders McHale has to at least take the call.

[BGMaverick9]

yeah, everyone has to take the call...but there is a BIG difference between taking the call and saying yes to the big part of the call.

[TVI]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Amare is the most overrated defensive player in the league today.

Don't you have to play defense to be overrated at it?

[Tokey41]

Marion should be leaving, but whether he goes to the Wolves depends on whether the Suns get a 4 or 5 pick or not (or the pick at all for that matter). I certainly wouldn't trade KG for Marion, Diaw, and just those late picks.

Especially Diaw, I don't understand why the Wolves would want to take on that contract and downgrade to Marion unless they are going to be getting Oden, Durant, Wright, Noah, Horford, Yi, etc. in that package. If they don't get that pick Marion is going elsewhere (or maybe the Suns would think about trading Amare in the KG deal instead, doubtful).

[Janett_Reno]

First of all Kevin Garnett is going east. The only team that could ever pull off Garnett in the west is the Lakers. MN would ask for Amare and Phx would say hell no.

A team that was very close getting Garnett and then Gasol is the Chicago Bulls. I thought they would compete with the Pistons now but i was wrong. They know better than i, that they can't score inside unless it is PJ Brown at 40 years old and he is good but old. They have so many good outside shooters but they need a man to score inside and they want one that is very good to great.

This Ben Gordon kid is amazing when i watch him but it seems the Bulls fans are not that excited over him and they like Deng alot. I agree, always take size over small guys. No way Phx is getting Kevin Garnett. Phx is keeping this same team and trying to add an inside guy, just like what we are going to try to do and if Phx makes any block buster trade it would be with a Marion but every single year he has been in the NBA, it is reported he is being traded. It never happens and i don't think it will this year either. He is in the top 10 of every stat available to man. He is in the perfect situation with Steve Nash. I am not defending Marion because personally i do not care for him but a fan of basketball, he is very very good.

Watch what the Bulls do. This team can easily pull a string to get either Garnett or Gasol. This could very well put them over the top. Guys they will give for either of those two guys consist of Ben Gordon, Deng, Thomas, and PJ Brown. Some form or fashion and even MN has begged before for Ben Wallace and for a deal for Garnett, Wallace could be in it as it was almost a deal a few years ago involving Garnett/Ben Wallace and others.

Detroit, Spurs, even Dallas and Phx have to do nothing and will be good. Dallas & Phx needs an extra piece and so does Chicago to get over the hump but all can compete. The Spurs are sitting good with their money situation and the Bulls are sitting good with so many young talented players to pull Garnett or Gasol.

Amare is untouchable and he is a very good player. Two big time players you need to watch for and Garnett heads the pack as he is great, is Garnett and Gasol and watch where they go. They can impact a team very much and make them really good. Gasol came in the league soft but he isn't anymore. Memphis will give up next year and go young. Miller will probably leave also but he is soft.

I'll finish with this, Phx has nothing to be ashamed of. I predicted they would get beat in 6 but i am afraid i would have been wrong if Amare/Diaw wasn't kicked out. It would have been a game 7 in Phx. What would the finish have been? We will never know. Phx was closer than i knew. Like Dallas, they have a hell of a team and they are maybe one or two players, like Dallas, from bigger and better things. I don't think Dallas or Phx will make a blockbuster trade.

[Janett_Reno]

Phx fans, you do not need another star or superstar. Honestly, think about this. Get a younger Mutombo, an Alonzo Mourning or a player like this that is tall and that is a hell of a low post in the paint defender and can block shots. Camby is another.

This player doens't even have to play against 75% of the teams in the league. When you play SA, use this player to make Duncan work harder and slow Duncan some and this player will ever slow Tony Parker. Play this player against Detroit and Dallas also.

You are trying to do this with Kurt Thomas and he was the only thing available and he is good but old and to short. You might beat the Pistons with him but you must get by SA. Amare would still play along side this defensive center and he would score inside(Amare) but you must get someone that can help slow Duncan or make a stop in the last 2 mins of a game. We need one but not a defensive one but offensive one and Phx needs a defensive one.

[mary]

Suns' plan: Go forward, get better
Lockers cleaned, goodbyes said, rumors begin

Doug Haller
The Arizona Republic
May. 20, 2007 12:00 AM

The Suns walked out of their home locker room Saturday, their belongings stuffed into bags swung over their shoulders, their post-basketball intentions spread all over the country.

Their playoff elimination in south Texas just hours earlier hadn't quite sunk in. They have an entire summer to ponder what went wrong during their series with the San Antonio Spurs, which not only consumed basketball fans across the Valley, but those around the country as well.

The Suns had entered the Western Conference semifinals as the favorite, but how quickly that changed. Steve Nash's very own blood, streaming from his nose, might have cost the Suns in Game 1. Then came the hard foul from Robert Horry in Game 4, the altercation and the suspensions of Amaré Stoudemire and Boris Diaw that might have cost the Suns advancement, and ultimately a championship.

"This is tough," Suns coach Mike D'Antoni said. "But again, when you hang around the guys that we have, you hate it that we fell short, you hate it for the city and the fans, but in that locker room it's still a great feeling. Today's the first day of trying to get better for next year."

Stoudemire, the Suns' leading scorer, said nearly the same thing after Friday's loss. It was all about getting better, coming together, working together, building a championship team. The Suns center didn't elaborate Saturday, because he never showed at US Airways Center, an unexcused absence as the team convened a final time. (mary's note: what a classy guy!)

D'Antoni acted like it wasn't a big deal but admitted the Suns had chemistry issues, maybe deeper than anyone realized.

"I don't want to get into it a whole lot," D'Antoni said, "but we can really improve that. Last year at the end everybody was crying. This year (everyone) was like, 'daggone,' but it wasn't the same heartfelt stuff that a team should produce." (mary's note: I bet there isn't a single Suns player that has ever uttered the word "daggone").

Nash was still having a hard time dealing with the series drama. He admitted he would always wonder what would've happened had the Suns been at full strength for Game 5 in Phoenix. It made the team's third straight Pacific Division title, the franchise-record 17-game winning streak and the 61 regular-regular season wins easy to forget.

Changes could be in store. The Suns face a luxury-tax hit estimated at $12 million if they return all of their core players and draft and sign their three first-round draft picks. As usual, Shawn Marion, a four-time All-Star, is rumored to be the first out of town.

Nash urged patience.

"You just can't throw everything away and start deciding what you need right now," he said. "It takes a little time to let it sink in and figure out where it is we need to improve. . . . It's not like this group is a finished product. We still have guys who are improving and growing."

D'Antoni agreed.

"We want to win a championship as much as anybody," he said. "If it means we got to get deeper, it means we got to get deeper. If it means we got to get a better player here and there, we're going to try everything we can. We are set up pretty well with draft picks and we have a lot of talented players, so we have a lot of choices." (mary's note: sounds familiar!)

And a lot of time to reflect on the last few weeks - or, in some cases, let it go. As Nash talked with reporters, reserve center Pat Burke drove up in a cart with teammate James Jones, their belongings sitting on a flatbed behind them. Burke honked the cart's horn, telling the media to step aside.

"Let's go," Burke said. "This is the Suns moving forward."

..

[V2M]

That's an interesting read... thanks for posting it Mary.

[TripleDipping]

Everybody's talking like as if Marion is such a great trade bait. Other than being a speedy and good defensive player, Marion's game strives largely on PG play. He can't create his own shots and constantly disappears in big games.

I guess playing with Kidd and Nash back-to-back can give you a reputation that you're good.

[The Crippler]

I can see Amare and his me-first attitude getting shipped off this summer if Dan Tony is still the coach there next season. The earlier article and this one really seem like those two do not get along. Oh well.

They're both jerkoffs if you ask me, which no one did, of course...

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by TripleDipping

Everybody's talking like as if Marion is such a great trade bait. Other than being a speedy and good defensive player, Marion's game strives largely on PG play. He can't create his own shots and constantly disappears in big games.

I guess playing with Kidd and Nash back-to-back can give you a reputation that you're good.

Marion is an upgraded Bowen, and every team can use that. He is a two way player that can guard up to 4 positions with his strength and length.

What isn't to like?

No he isn't a superstar that can offensively create, but he is a very good player.

A list of players he belongs in the same category with:
Prince, Kirilenko, Josh Howard, Bowen, Deng, RLewis --- not quite max players, but close.

[DelNegro]

Originally Posted by The Crippler

I can see Amare and his me-first attitude getting shipped off this summer if Dan Tony is still the coach there next season. The earlier article and this one really seem like those two do not get along. Oh well.

They're both jerkoffs if you ask me, which no one did, of course...

Amare's too young and too talented. The Suns will get rid of whoever Amare has a problem with, D'Antoni included, before they trade him away. Even if it is Amare who's being the @ss.

And for what it's worth, I agree with you, they're both jerkoffs.

[DelNegro]

Originally Posted by TripleDipping

Everybody's talking like as if Marion is such a great trade bait. Other than being a speedy and good defensive player, Marion's game strives largely on PG play. He can't create his own shots and constantly disappears in big games.

I guess playing with Kidd and Nash back-to-back can give you a reputation that you're good.

Marion certainly can't carry a team, but that doesn't mean he's not a great player. Some guys are "just an all-star" and Marion fits that description. He'd be an incredible piece of complimentary talent to any team in the league. He just can't be the guy you try to build around.

[The Crippler]

Originally Posted by DelNegro

Amare's too young and too talented. The Suns will get rid of whoever Amare has a problem with, D'Antoni included, before they trade him away. Even if it is Amare who's being the @ss.

And for what it's worth, I agree with you, they're both jerkoffs.

yeah, you are probably right about shipping Dan Tony out first if it is those two who do have the problem. What about if it is Nash and Amare though? What do the suns do in that case? Don't know where I read it, but I think I read something about Amare not being pleased with the fact that Nash gets all of the credit and he getting the leftovers. We know where the coach's loyalties lie. How about the GM?

Probably all speculation, but it's fun to talk about.

[DelNegro]

Originally Posted by The Crippler

yeah, you are probably right about shipping Dan Tony out first if it is those two who do have the problem. What about if it is Nash and Amare though? What do the suns do in that case? Don't know where I read it, but I think I read something about Amare not being pleased with the fact that Nash gets all of the credit and he getting the leftovers. We know where the coach's loyalties lie. How about the GM?

Probably all speculation, but it's fun to talk about.

I have a hard time visioning anyone having a problem with a player as unselfish as Nash. But for sake of conversation, if there were a rift between Nash and Amare then the Suns would be pretty much F'd because they can't get rid of either of those guys. They wouldn't be anywhere close to as good as they are now without Nash, but you've got to look at the future and 5 years from now Amare's entering his prime and Nash is going to be close to being finished. I think Suns mgmt would be forced to try and walk that tightrope ala the lakers with Shaq and Kobe. Keep them together and just hope that you can win games because winning tends to cure all ailments.

If I had to guess I think the Suns chemistry problem lies somewhere in the middle of the Amare-Marion-Diaw triangle. We know Amare's got an ego, and Marion has complained about touches in the past. Not to mention Marion's rumored to get traded each and every year so that's got to wear on a guy. Diaw excelled when Amare was out and Amare's return has pretty much squeezed him out of the big picture so he's got a reason to feel bitchy too. I can also very easily see Nash and Raja Bell not being too tolerant of petty bickering between teammates and not being afraid to tell them about it to their faces.

[Janett_Reno]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Marion is an upgraded Bowen, and every team can use that. He is a two way player that can guard up to 4 positions with his strength and length.

What isn't to like?

No he isn't a superstar that can offensively create, but he is a very good player.

A list of players he belongs in the same category with:
Prince, Kirilenko, Josh Howard, Bowen, Deng, RLewis --- not quite max players, but close.

Dalmations202 i s right. Marion is in the same category of the abive players he mentioned. Any of the above players he talked of is very good. Remember Marion is like Bowen on Dirk. Quick and smaller and use to give Dirk probs. Dirk is doing much better on these type guys now. Yes at times he still has some probs with them but not as much as he use to.

Something to think about, Diaw did do very good when it was injury on Phx team and he started. So anyone can ponder, if Marion was ever traded for a very good big man in the middle, how would Phx be? Marion will get you a top notch and a very good player in return but also remember Nash makes Marion look great. Marion is in the perfect organazation where he can run, jump high and use all his skills to the max and yes he has alot of skills but Nash makes them excel to the very best Marion could be and Nash is this way with Amare also.

This would be a very major move if they tinkered with moving Marion because this team is in the top 3 or 4 best in the west now and will be for the next few years with this same team but i feel what they need to decide and if money is permitting, do you trade a Marion and let Diaw fill in on what Marion does and get a really good center? Let Amare play power forward. Now if you ask me, Nash point, Bell shooting guard, Diaw forward, Amare power forward and big time center would be good but also Marion can bomb, Marion can dunk and with Diaw and taking Marion out, you have changed your team alot to be more inside than bombing outside. Oh Nash is great and being more inside doesn't hurt but this would be a major change Phx needs to think about. I would not do it if i couldn't get the big man i wanted.

Diaw will also bring a good player. Many teams need a Diaw. Phx is not in bad shape but i would get deeper on the bench. They are thin off the bench. The point guard they got from MN sucks. Pat Burke sucks. James Jones is over rated. He is just to soft and doesn't seem to want to improve. If they do nothing but get a big man inside, improve the bench they will be good.

One other player they have to have for trade is Kurt Thomas and he is a good player but old. He just doesn't fit in real good with run and gun but is very solid in half court. If Phx is having squabbles with Marion and others, then this could be a differ story and might want to move him but always remember this, if we pull Josh Howard, we have now lost our will to fight and win. If SA loses Bruce Bowen, Nash would have beat SA this year. Would Detroit be what they are without Prince? AK-47 can sometimes change a game by himself. Marion is also this type player and Phx needs to get what they want before they deal him and remember i am not a Marion fan but i know how good he is as i watch what he does to us.

I think the off season will be excitting on what Dallas, Phx, Chicago, Miami and even SA does. GS is another. The Lakers and Clippers and where will Gasol and Garnett go? It will be a fun off season to watch what teams do. Phx must do something to try to get by SA and Dallas must make a tweek or so to get by GS and maybe Phx.

[chumdawg]

Why don't they just dump Nash so that Stoudemire or Marion can grow into their own and finally reach their potential?

[Windmill360]

They should just bring Marbury and Francis aboard.

[V2M]

Originally Posted by Windmill360°

They should just bring Marbury and Francis aboard.

And then fire Mike Dan & Tony and hire Larry Brown as the head coach...

[Janett_Reno]

They tried Marbury and he sucks. Nash is by far the best point guard in the league. No point guard is even close to him.

Phx needs to do like Dallas and that is not alot. Both teams are very good and neither has to do alot to get over the hump. The hump for Dallas is Golden State and possibly Phx and San Antonio. Phx big hump is San Antonio and a guy called Tim Duncan.

Both teams need an inside man. Dallas offense, Phx defense and shot blocker.

[dude1394]

I imagine that after seeing GS, marion (and everyone) will just start fronting dirk. Mavs guards( or coach, or dirk(?)) don't have much answer for it.

[DelNegro]

Originally Posted by Janett_Reno

They tried Marbury and he sucks. Nash is by far the best point guard in the league. No point guard is even close to him.

Phx needs to do like Dallas and that is not alot. Both teams are very good and neither has to do alot to get over the hump. The hump for Dallas is Golden State and possibly Phx and San Antonio. Phx big hump is San Antonio and a guy called Tim Duncan.

Both teams need an inside man. Dallas offense, Phx defense and shot blocker.

Respectfully disagree. I'd put Kidd very close to Nash, and depending on what team I was I'd even make a case that Kidd would be an even better fit than Nash. The fact that the Nets have won 9 playoff series in Kidd's 6 years there is just astonishing to me considering who Kidd has had around him during that time. (only the Spurs and Pistons have more playoff series victories over that stretch)

He's led his team to the finals twice and yeah they lost convincingly both years, but my god, he went to war against the Shaq-Kobe lakers and the Duncan-Parker-Ginobili Spurs with the likes of Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson and Kerry Kittles.

Just look at Kidd's playoff stats this year. They're absolutely insane. Twelve games and he averaged a triple double. Not just barely either. 15 points, 11 assists, 11 rebounds. And almost 2 steals per game for good measure. Nash just has to score and distribute, and granted nobody does that better. Kidd on the other hand not only has to score and distribute, but he's also counted on to rebound and guard guys like Lebron because he's his team's best defender by far.

Kidd is every bit the player Steve Nash is, he just gets overlooked because Nash has so much more talent around him. Which team falls off more if Nash and Kidd swapped teams? I don't think either would be as good as they are now, but Phoenix with Kidd would still be really good, but the Nets with Nash go absolutely nowhere.