What for Phoenix

[BGMaverick9]

What do you do if you're the management collective for Phoenix?

Do you blow it up with Nash as the franchise player, or just ride the horse again and see if you can get over the hump?

[MavsX]

hump

[MavsX]

i bet marion walks

[mavs413]

I'd try to trade Marion for a player that can create for himself, and then try and get a shotblocker and a backup PG in FA.

[BGMaverick9]

What is the status with the pick they might pick up from...Atlanta is it?

[mary]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

What is the status with the pick they might pick up from...Atlanta is it?

They won't know until after the draft lottery.

Its top-3 protected.

[BGMaverick9]

let's say its 4 or 5, would you trade amare or marion with the pick to move up into the top 2 and get either durant or oden?

i would think that's something they'd seriously consider.

[dirno2000]

I'd sign Jamaal Magloire, replace Dan Tony with an NBA coach, move Amare to the 4 and Marion to the 3.

Of course they would be well over the tax threshold which may not be acceptable to the owner.

[Flacolaco]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

...., replace Dan Tony with an NBA coach,.....

Count it..... and the foul!

[BGMaverick9]

I don't really see how the status quo for them is really the smart move. They seem to be too dependent on those starters and they won't give the bench a shot. I think either Amare or Marion have to go.

[Dtownsfinest]

let's say its 4 or 5, would you trade amare or marion with the pick to move up into the top 2 and get either durant or oden?

i would think that's something they'd seriously consider.

No one is trading out of the top 2 picks for no one. That's how much potential Oden and Durant have. But I think a team would do it for Amare though. I don't see why not. A team is hoping Durant and Oden can be as good as Amare is. They could just skip the bumps and bruises and get a 1st team all nba player out the gate. But Suns probably wouldn't give him up.

I expect D'Antoni to be fired once Nash is retired. He'd serve no purpose. Hell he serves no purpose when Nash takes a rest on the bench.

[BGMaverick9]

I think the team with either pick 1 or 2 would consider it...but would Phoenix?

They'll have to make a decision on what direction they actually want to go with. I really think this might have been their best chance to win.

[V2M]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

What do you do if you're the management collective for Phoenix?

Do you blow it up with Nash as the franchise player, or just ride the horse again and see if you can get over the hump?

Nash is good but he can't defend and father time is fast catching up with him (twins can do that to you!). Amare is great but he's a PF. He can't guard TD inside. What they need is a true center who can defend and rebound. If I'm their GM, I'd trade Nash to Dallas for Dampier. Solves two problems!

And if Cuban doesn't budge on the deal (he's known in the past to be not so keen on Nash!), I'd even throw the pick from ATL. Salaries match very well, btw.

[BGMaverick9]

lol
the nba would fall on its face if that happened, it'd would be too weird.

[EricaLubarsky]

Amare is the most overrated defensive player in the league today.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by V2M

What they need is a true center who can defend and rebound. If I'm their GM, I'd trade Nash to Dallas for Dampier. Solves two problems!

And if Cuban doesn't budge on the deal (he's known in the past to be not so keen on Nash!), I'd even throw the pick from ATL. Salaries match very well, btw.

Stop, you're getting my hopes up

[BGMaverick9]

Phoenix: We'll send Nash back, but it's Dampier and Harris we want

Dallas: _____________________________

[vjz]

The Sports Guy had a great trade scenario: Amare + pick for Garnett = championship.

[StackAttack]

Marion's played his last game in a Suns uniform IMO. That's too much money to be putting into two guys (Amare and him). Considering he was on the block last summer, I think the Suns decided the best option would be to keep him for a season and then see how Amare came back from the surgery, then decide which one to keep. Clearly Amare's as good as (or better than) he was before. Shawn's out.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by vjz

The Sports Guy had a great trade scenario: Amare + pick for Garnett = championship.

Why would they need to get garnett when they are already the greatest team in history?


Oh yeah, they keep getting beat. Sorta throws about an ocean of cold-water on the sports guys prognosticating abilities.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by V2M

Nash is good but he can't defend and father time is fast catching up with him (twins can do that to you!). Amare is great but he's a PF. He can't guard TD inside. What they need is a true center who can defend and rebound. If I'm their GM, I'd trade Nash to Dallas for Dampier. Solves two problems!

And if Cuban doesn't budge on the deal (he's known in the past to be not so keen on Nash!), I'd even throw the pick from ATL. Salaries match very well, btw.

I don't think Phoenix is that desperate.

[MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs]

Gotta love how the media disses the Mavs all year long and sings the praises of the Suns, and the Suns turn around and choke just like the Mavs. At least Mavs got a finals appearance out of it.

I don't think the Suns make any major changes though. If not for a bloody nose and a few suspensions they probably would of won this series. In that aspect I feel a bit sorry for them.

But actually Suns fan didn't feel sorry for the Mavs last year when we got screwed over by the refs and the Stackhouse suspension in the Finals. So F-em.

[dude1394]

Well they almost have to do something. If they actually have 3 number one picks, what would they do with them? Dan and Tony won't play more than 7 players. Who's spot will they take?

[StackAttack]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Well they almost have to do something. If they actually have 3 number one picks, what would they do with them? Dan and Tony won't play more than 7 players. Who's spot will they take?

...it's not because they don't WANT to play more than 7 players, it's because their 8th man is Eric Piatkowski.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Nash hasn't proven jack. He should get way more scrutiny than Dirk. His two MVPs are far more stained than Dirk's one for sure.

[BGMaverick9]

It seems like they missed pretty bad in FA last off-season with Banks, Rose and etc. They thought those new pieces would mesh in the system and they really didn't. If those guys had worked it would've extended the bench a little bit.

They either need to keep doing trial and error for bench guys to keep those core players fresh or they need to have D'antoni change his system (either with nash at the helm or not).

[fluid.forty.one]

I <3 this thread. F the suns.

[vjz]

BTW, interesting comments from a blogger about Nash and the Suns:
http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/...nate-suns.html

:
:
:
For three seasons we have heard about Nash's greatness, which is supposed to consist mainly of his ability to make his teammates better. His coach publicly stated, more than once, that the Suns are more talented than the Spurs. Yet, Nash failed once again to lead his team to the NBA Finals--despite owning homecourt advantage and being paired with an All-NBA First Team player (Stoudemire), an All-Star/Defensive Player of the Year candidate (Marion), the Sixth Man of the Year (Leandro Barbosa) and a member of the All-Defensive First Team (Raja Bell). Sure, Nash had 14 assists in Game Six but--other than Stoudemire, who is clearly an explosive talent who would thrive on any team--who exactly did he "make better" in the biggest game of the year for the Suns? Marion shot 5-12, Barbosa shot 5-15, Diaw shot 0-1 and Bell shot 5-9. If Nash in fact "made everyone better" during the past three regular seasons and if the Suns in fact are "more talented" than the Spurs than why did this series not even make it to a seventh game? If Kobe Bryant is denied MVP honors for not leading the Lakers to 50 wins and Dirk Nowitzki is blasted for going out in the first round after a 67 win season then how can Nash escape any criticism when his team lasts exactly one round longer than their teams did despite enjoying homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs (after Dallas' elimination) and despite playing alongside so many talented players? If he has been "making them better" all along and deserves two MVPs as a reward for that then he has to be criticized for not making them better year after year in the playoffs.
:
:
:

[Janett_Reno]

They tried for the final piece with Kurt Thomas but let's face it, we all need the same player. An inside player but someone mentioned Magloire. They need a Diop or Magloire or the ultimate Camby. Tim Duncan is one of the greatest to ever play but you can't let him have a free pass. You must knock him down and get physical with him. My hat is off to Amare to play as good as he does against him but this is a nightmare for Phx. They will never get past SA untill they can get a man to slow down Duncan just a tad. No one will stop him but slow him.

It has been talks of Marion being traded every year from Phx but the fact is, he plays great with Nash. Amare is great. As good as they are, they have to have a taller man that plays good defense and can block a shot more than Kurt Thomas and this takes nothing away from Thomas because he has been good for years. He is more of a half court player and he is undersized and now older but yes he is solid.

We need the same type player but plays offense. The prob is, can Phx get a man inside to play offense/defense because if you play only defense, you might not get playing time in Phx. Can Phx get this man i am talking about without a trade? Diaw is a very good and solid player and plays so many positions and he is important but he could be the piece to get that type player i am talking about and keep Nash, Amare and Marion together.

If i was Phx, i would be like Dallas and not blow them team up and get rid of many. Both teams are very, very good. Both teams are not far from getting our of the west and into the finals. Phx will kill small ball teams, we won't. Phx has probs with SA and great defensive teams with a good big man scorring in the middle, we don't. I mean we can compete with SA and 50/50 shot on beating them. Phx is under maned inside for SA. Both teams has a hole to fill and some on here think we need to trade one of our points and get a big shooting guard. I am torn about this and maybe this will work, maybe it won't and i do like a big good shooting guard and one that creates but i still will always feel we need a man to score inside. This man can start or come off bench but i feel we need one. Even with an old PJ Brown, i feel we beat GS.

[Windmill360]

trade your two first round picks and amare for KG.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by vjz

BTW, interesting comments from a blogger about Nash and the Suns:
http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/...nate-suns.html

:
:
:
For three seasons we have heard about Nash's greatness, which is supposed to consist mainly of his ability to make his teammates better. His coach publicly stated, more than once, that the Suns are more talented than the Spurs. Yet, Nash failed once again to lead his team to the NBA Finals--despite owning homecourt advantage and being paired with an All-NBA First Team player (Stoudemire), an All-Star/Defensive Player of the Year candidate (Marion), the Sixth Man of the Year (Leandro Barbosa) and a member of the All-Defensive First Team (Raja Bell). Sure, Nash had 14 assists in Game Six but--other than Stoudemire, who is clearly an explosive talent who would thrive on any team--who exactly did he "make better" in the biggest game of the year for the Suns? Marion shot 5-12, Barbosa shot 5-15, Diaw shot 0-1 and Bell shot 5-9. If Nash in fact "made everyone better" during the past three regular seasons and if the Suns in fact are "more talented" than the Spurs than why did this series not even make it to a seventh game? If Kobe Bryant is denied MVP honors for not leading the Lakers to 50 wins and Dirk Nowitzki is blasted for going out in the first round after a 67 win season then how can Nash escape any criticism when his team lasts exactly one round longer than their teams did despite enjoying homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs (after Dallas' elimination) and despite playing alongside so many talented players? If he has been "making them better" all along and deserves two MVPs as a reward for that then he has to be criticized for not making them better year after year in the playoffs.
:
:
:

The truth.

[kg_veteran]

I thought this portion of the blog entry was also worth adding:

The reality, of course, is that Nash is an excellent player but he is not and never has been the best player in the NBA. That is why teams led by Duncan and Nowitzki have knocked his Suns out of the playoffs each of the past three seasons--and why Kobe Bryant almost pulled off the same thing in 2006 with so much less help around him than Nash has that it is comical to suggest that Nash is better than Bryant; put Bryant on the Suns for this series and Ginobili would no longer be the best guard on the court and the Suns would be better than they are now both offensively and defensively. Every single writer and commentator who has been saying for the past two weeks that he would switch his MVP vote this year from Nowitzki to Nash because of what happened in the first round absolutely must follow that reasoning to its logical conclusion and publicly endorse Duncan as this year's MVP; you simply cannot bash Nowitzki for losing in the first round and then completely ignore that Nash's team lost in the second round despite having homecourt advantage.

[chumdawg]

That is why teams led by Duncan and Nowitzki have knocked his Suns out of the playoffs each of the past three seasons

It's disingenuous to include Nowitzki as part of this argument and not also mention that the team Nash led knocked Nowitzki's Mavs out in one of those years.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

It's disingenuous to include Nowitzki as part of this argument and not also mention that the team Nash led knocked Nowitzki's Mavs out in one of those years.

He should have said "or" rather than "and", but his point was that Nash has never been the best player in the league. Seems to me that his point stands up well.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

He should have said "or" rather than "and", but his point was that Nash has never been the best player in the league. Seems to me that his point stands up well.

That wouldn't have made a difference. He implied that Duncan and Nowitzki are both higher on the totem pole than Nash, as evidenced by their knocking Nash out of the playoffs.

If that's the evidence, then what does 2005 say about Nowitzki?

His argument doesn't hold water, as far as Nowitzki is concerned.

That's not to say that his premise is wrong. But he used some faulty reasoning for part of his support.

EDIT: Okay, I see what you mean now. So in effect, he is arguing that you cannot be the best player in the league any given season if you do not win the championship. Right?

[kg_veteran]

It seems to me that he's pointing out the logical fallacy of criticizing Dirk and not Nash.

EDIT: Re: 05-07, it looks like the implication is that Duncan and Dirk were better in those given years, because the relative supporting casts in SA and Dallas were weaker.

[chumdawg]

He says the following:

The reason Duncan and Nowitzki have knocked Nash out of the playoffs the last three years is that Nash was not in any of those years the best player in the NBA.

He says some other stuff, too. But you can't misinterpret his argument above.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

He says the following:

The reason Duncan and Nowitzki have knocked Nash out of the playoffs the last three years is that Nash was not in any of those years the best player in the NBA.

He says some other stuff, too. But you can't misinterpret his argument above.

True. I think he's saying that, considering the supporting cast Nash has (and the home court advantage he has had in the past 2 meetings with San Antonio), he can't be the best player in the league if his team hasn't advanced past Duncan's team and/or Nowitzki's team. That also explains his "Kobe on this Suns team" argument...

[chumdawg]

Except that he doesn't explore Nash's supporting cast versus Duncan's and Dirk's. He only talks about Kobe (and what he *almost* did...yet, says the record, did not do) and his.

I hate it when people throw these kind of reductivist arguments out there: If Nash were better than Duncan or Dirk, his team would have won and not theirs. There is way, way more to it than that.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Except that he doesn't explore Nash's supporting cast versus Duncan's and Dirk's.

He implicitly does. He mentions the Dan Tony quote about Phoenix having more talent than San Antonio, and then he goes on to talk about how Nash is playing with:

1. Another member of the All-NBA First Team;
2. Another All-Star/Defensive Player of the Year Candidate;
3. The Sixth Man of the Year; and
4. A member of the All-Defensive Team.

What other superstar in the league has teammates with those credentials? None of them.

I hate it when people throw these kind of reductivist arguments out there: If Nash were better than Duncan or Dirk, his team would have won and not theirs. There is way, way more to it than that.

It is a bit of a simplification, but I think his point remains the same: Nash should either be criticized just as harshly as Nowitzki has been, or his supporters should acknowledge that he's not as good as they claim he is.