Loneliness of white basketball player and second tier leagues - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

dude1394 · 05-19-2007, 12:17 PM

Pretty interesting article. About being a white basketball player, having a second-tier league that the bad teams go down to if they fail (no one would tank) and the benefits of less games.

http://www.slate.com/id/2166305/entry/2166590?nav=ais

Quote:

Neal,

I just finished playing basketball for a team in the Spanish first division. Our games were a big deal—the first division in Spain is easily the second-best basketball league in the world. Despite the popularity of my team and of the league, coverage of Spanish-league games was often preceded by the latest news from the Memphis Grizzlies and the Toronto Raptors. The former employs Pau Gasol, while the latter pays both Jorge Garbajosa and Jose Calderon. People in Spain want to know how their countrymen are doing in a faraway land. A normal reaction, I think.

Similarly, when the average white American male tunes into TNT sometime between October and June, he would very much like to see another average white American male on the basketball court. Most of the time, he doesn't. But in the few situations that he does, he is going to root for that player. That's the way it is. We like to see people who look like us succeed.

It would be nice if we could all cop to this phenomenon. Most people won't admit that they do the same because they're afraid they will be vilified for their apparent ignorance. But such a reaction is not necessarily harmful; by cheering for the success of his comrade in pastiness, the viewer is not wishing that black players fail. He is doing the same thing as the Spaniard who cheers for Pau Gasol.

Of course, one rebuttal would be: Come on Paul, we're all American. Are black American culture and white American culture really that different? The answer would be: Yes, they are. And if you think they're not, you haven't been paying attention. Again, the differences are not a bad thing; in fact, they're probably a good thing. And the more we discuss them, the more understanding everyone will have.

As for me … again: 6 percent. My attempt to succeed in the world of basketball could be compared to the efforts of a 1970s-era black man in the world of bond-trading. White people are not supposed to be good at basketball. I've been reminded of that assumption hundreds of times in my career. The attitude most often displayed by black basketball players I've faced was very similar to the one you espoused at the end of your last turn, Neal: Your people have everything else. Just let us have this.

From age 12 on, my one goal was to be a really good basketball player. I didn't care about much else. Of course, I did other things—stupendously hokey things. You're right: It was a Walton-esque existence. I was in 4-H, I was a Boy Scout, I finished fifth in the Kansas State Spelling Bee. I even got a National Merit Scholarship. I'm probably the whitest person with whom you'll ever publicly exchange e-mails.

But none of those activities/pastimes/sexual obstacles ever brought me as much happiness as basketball did. As I got better, I found myself to be a minority on the court more and more often. And as the members of my race were whittled away, I quickly realized that I wasn't particularly welcome. When I was on defense, the other team would give the ball to whomever I was guarding and yell, "Take it to him. He can't guard you." They did that not because I am from a middle-class home, or because I grew up on a quasi-farm, but because I am white.

So, forgive me if I feel that I have a special kinship with the Brent Barrys of the world.

But, onto fixing the NBA.

As is the case in most European countries, the Spanish league employs a relegation system—the bottom two teams drop to the next lowest division while the top two teams from that lower division get a promotion. At the time I joined them in March, my team was in last place. The entire island of Menorca was in a panic—everyone feared their team might never again ascend to the prestigious ACB if it dropped out this year. Fortunately, we salvaged the season. We finished in fourth-to-last place, safe from the clutches of the dreaded, second-tier LEB. Our achievement of complete and utter mediocrity was hailed with gusto by a gathering of 5,000 people in the center of the island's capital. Menorcans: not a people with high expectations.

Why couldn't this format be applied to the NBA? Tell me it wouldn't have added drama if the Atlanta Hawks and Boston Celtics had spent February and March concerned with a demotion to the CBA. Any tanking for the sake of high draft picks would be eliminated; the quality of play would increase significantly. Some of the games between my team and some of our fellow cellar-dwellers were far more exciting than games between two playoff-caliber teams. The intensity was NCAA-esque.

I fear that people will scoff at the suggestion. We couldn't have the Knicks playing in a minor league, they'll say. Well, why not? There wouldn't be anything stopping them from earning their way right back into the NBA.

My other big fix will never happen. There are too many games in an NBA season. And no one knows when those games are played. Another great move by the NFL was its reliance on a single-day schedule. Everyone knows (generally) that their respective teams will be playing every Sunday, (almost) without fail.

Again, the Euros got this one right. For example, in Spain there are only 34 domestic-league games each year. (Better teams do play additional intercountry games, but that adds only another 25 or 30 contests to the season.) A fan knows that his team will be playing on Saturday or Sunday. Afterward, he'll be able to discuss the results and standings with his friends—basically, he will get to be a fan.

Not so in the NBA at present. Games are every night of the week. Teams have rarely played the same number of games, so it is impossible to compare the standings fairly except at the end of the season. It's a mess. Unfortunately, owners would never give up the box-office revenue, so shortening the season too much is out of the question. But what about 58 games? Get rid of the conferences and the divisions and have teams play each other twice—on, say, Wednesdays and Saturdays. Regional travel is a moot point now and there are few remaining rivalries, so why not? At the end of the year, put the top 15 teams in the playoffs and have the other 15 play an NCAA tournament-style event for the remaining spot. (Note: The play-in tournament is an idea borrowed from Bill Simmons. I don't claim it as my own. But it's a good idea nonetheless.)

What do you think? Could it be done?

Since I gather that you get the last word, let me write that I've had fun doing this. Unfortunately, it will now be viciously awkward if we ever meet. It will be like meeting up with a girl from Myspace: Since we skipped past the normal beginnings of the relationship and jumped right to the deep conversations, we're doomed to a single date filled with painful silences. (Sigh.)

But I'm willing to risk it.

Paul

jthig32 · 05-19-2007, 12:42 PM

I like Paul Shirley's stuff. I like reading his journals at espn.com. Pretty interesting stuff at time. He's not scared to say what he thinks about current players.

vjz · 05-19-2007, 01:09 PM

Interesting, but way off on the racial thing... if what he says is true, Laker fans would be rooting for Nash 'cause he's white, not Kobe... which is ridiculous.

But the NBA should seriously considering tiering the NBA. Not only are there too many bad teams right now, it would also discourage tanking.

dude1394 · 05-19-2007, 02:24 PM

I don't know, I would imagine that there is a desire to see another "brotha" make good out there. Not that many to root for to be honest.

I also haven't been to many jazz games, do the "other brothas"

, tell folks to go at kirilenko? If they do they aren't being racist, just stupid.

Dtownsfinest · 05-19-2007, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Similarly, when the average white American male tunes into TNT sometime between October and June, he would very much like to see another average white American male on the basketball court. Most of the time, he doesn't. But in the few situations that he does, he is going to root for that player. That's the way it is. We like to see people who look like us succeed.

That's ridiculous.....

dude1394 · 05-20-2007, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

That's ridiculous.....

I would not count it as so ridiculous. I liked larry bird a lot. And one of the reasons was that he was a slow white boy beating up on guys flying over the rim. Can't help it but it was true.

you like seeing your alma mater's folks do well, I don't see it as that much different. Not to the point that you can't root for someone else, but it's a pretty natural occurance. It certainly happens in reverse I believe.

chumdawg · 05-20-2007, 03:10 AM

You know what? After reading that, I think it's probably the most blatant example of racism that will go unnoticed by anyone who cares. Congrats, Paul. You have managed to be a bigot of extraordinary proportions and do it in a manner such that no one will care.

Enjoy your irrelevance. It's all you have going for you.

untitled · 05-20-2007, 10:50 AM

Speaking of Larry Bird, didn't he get some flak for an interview a few years back where he essentially said the same thing? He was being interviewed with Magic Johnson, and Bird said the league needed more white stars for the fans to root for, since most of the fanbase is white and fans like to root for players more like themselves.

Edit: Found an article on the interview--> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1818396

JamesVE · 05-20-2007, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

But none of those activities/pastimes/sexual obstacles ever brought me as much happiness as basketball did. As I got better, I found myself to be a minority on the court more and more often. And as the members of my race were whittled away, I quickly realized that I wasn't particularly welcome. When I was on defense, the other team would give the ball to whomever I was guarding and yell, "Take it to him. He can't guard you." They did that not because I am from a middle-class home, or because I grew up on a quasi-farm, but because I am white.

Being one of very few white guys in a majority black neighborhood, I can say that this is unbelievably true. Where I grew up, you also very quickly learn that unlike popular belief, others than just white men can be very, very racist. Of course, you'll never hear about this from Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson.

dirno2000 · 05-20-2007, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I would not count it as so ridiculous. I liked larry bird a lot. And one of the reasons was that he was a slow white boy beating up on guys flying over the rim. Can't help it but it was true.

you like seeing your alma mater's folks do well, I don't see it as that much different. Not to the point that you can't root for someone else, but it's a pretty natural occurance. It certainly happens in reverse I believe.

Of course that million dollar question is: are you (and people in general) able to switch off this inclination when the stakes are a little higher than who wins a basketball game?

Dtownsfinest · 05-20-2007, 12:53 PM

Quote:

I would not count it as so ridiculous. I liked larry bird a lot. And one of the reasons was that he was a slow white boy beating up on guys flying over the rim. Can't help it but it was true.

you like seeing your alma mater's folks do well, I don't see it as that much different. Not to the point that you can't root for someone else, but it's a pretty natural occurance. It certainly happens in reverse I believe.

I wouldn't compare your alma mater to someone's race. They don't compare IMO. Yea there are times I like seeing the underdog when. The team that isn't suppose to win. The team that's underman. But i've never once cheered for a guy because he looked like me. That's what I found ridiculous.

As far as you cheering for Bird I did as well. I cheered for him because he was a great player. He was greatness. That's why I think the majority of Bird's fans cheered for him. I have a hard time believing it was because he was white.

rabbitproof · 05-20-2007, 01:11 PM

I can see rooting for an individual of a specific background when ranks are to be broken - be it a minority elected public servant, minority executives, minority athletes and entertainers - just to prove men of good standing are found in all colors. Of course, this assumes the individual is worthy of support - regardless of their race.

However, once ranks are broken, it becomes an agenda.

And the point all along isn't about rooting for a race. For me, it's about rooting for the unprecedented and a step towards equality.

I would've rooted for Jackie Robinson, I rooted for Yao Ming to do well, I rooted for Dirk Nowitzki to win Europe's first NBA MVP and I'll keep rooting for a minority President who will represent the US well.

mary · 05-21-2007, 01:05 PM

BlackAthlete Sports Network-www.blackathlete.net
Editorial
Nash And No-Who-Ski Or Shall We Say "Great White Hype"?
By Boyce Watkins
May 21, 2007

NEW YORK -- I am not one to sit here and pretend that Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki are not great players. They ball with the best of them and their game's are tight. But I will vomit the next time I hear someone try to explain to me why they should have been chosen as MVPs over the past three years.

Does their being white have anything to do with their being chosen as league MVPs? Abso-damn-lutely. As I mentioned when I was on a radio interview with NBA commissioner David Stern, there has been a consistent effort to try to "whiten" the NBA, making the thugged out, gangsta braided, tattoo-totting brothers look less scary to their white audience.

Stern wants to show a counter-example on the floor, so he searches other countries, and even other planets to find just the right look. You want that golden boy. The one with the wavy hair, deep blue eyes, humble press conferences and a face that will fit nicely on a Wheaties box.

He doesn't have a baby's mama, he has a wife, two kids and a dog. He thinks that "50 Cent" is something you put in a vending machine. He doesn't smoke weed in public. At worst, he gets addicted to pain killers. He says all the right things, all the time, and the fans can even throw beer on him without fear of retaliation.

Then, you make sure that this guy, if he has any talent whatsoever, is given a clear shot at being the MVP. Nash and Nowitzki are perfect, since they are arguably as good as anyone.

But what's interesting is that neither of them did very much in this year's playoffs. The NBA and sportswriters have played the race card in the past, as we can all remember Christian Laettner being chosen over Shaq for the 1992 Olympic Team.

When Laettner and Shaq played together for the Miami Heat, Laettner was so far down the bench, he couldn't even get a ticket to the game.

Nowitzki was a "no-nothing" against Golden State. The brothers came with the funk and showed him how they play ball in Oaktown. Poor Dirk didn't know what hit him, as he was left with a forehead soaked with testicle sweat from whoever dunked on him last.

Nash is going home too, thanks to the continued heroics of a legitimate MVP contender, Tim Duncan. LeBron James, another guy who is clearly better than Nash and Nowitzki, is headed to the conference finals at the age of 22.

THAT, my friends, is what MVPs can do. If Nowitzki or Nash were playing for the Cavs, they would NOT be in the Eastern Conference Finals, and maybe not even in the playoffs.

I hear the moaning now. "BUT, but, but Nash makes his team sooo much better!" Yes, Nash is a great player, even if you give no credit to the amazingly talented men who know what to do with the ball when Nash gives it to them.

He has the ability to IMPROVE a team. However, LeBron and Duncan have the ability to CARRY a team. That, my friends, is the difference.

Nash and Nowitzki should be contenders for the VIP Award -- Very Important Player, or The RHP Award -- Really Helpful Player. Both Nash and "No-Show-Ski" need a strong supporting cast to make anything happen.

LeBron can turn nothing into something. Duncan takes his cast and wins titles with them. Shaq was winning titles when he won the MVP award. If any of these guys had Amare Stoudemire, they would be contenders every year.

The MVP is not the guy who looks best on a Wheaties Box. He's the guy who is most valuable to the league based on his ability. Nash and Nowitzki are nice, but silly sports writers want to make them into the Baby Jesus.

Like the rest of America, they are "blinded by the white".

Even Stevie Wonder can see that clearly.

© Copyright 2005 by BlackAthlete Sports Network
http://www.blackathlete.net/artman2/..._printer.shtml

alexamenos · 05-21-2007, 01:18 PM

^^^ Boyce Watkins = Kevin Blackistone's little brother.

and by "little brother" I meant a younger sibling, not.....well...never mind.

rmacomic · 05-21-2007, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

BlackAthlete Sports Network-www.blackathlete.net
Editorial
Nash And No-Who-Ski Or Shall We Say "Great White Hype"?
By Boyce Watkins
May 21, 2007

NEW YORK -- I am not one to sit here and pretend that Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki are not great players. They ball with the best of them and their game's are tight. But I will vomit the next time I hear someone try to explain to me why they should have been chosen as MVPs over the past three years.

Does their being white have anything to do with their being chosen as league MVPs? Abso-damn-lutely. As I mentioned when I was on a radio interview with NBA commissioner David Stern, there has been a consistent effort to try to "whiten" the NBA, making the thugged out, gangsta braided, tattoo-totting brothers look less scary to their white audience.

Stern wants to show a counter-example on the floor, so he searches other countries, and even other planets to find just the right look. You want that golden boy. The one with the wavy hair, deep blue eyes, humble press conferences and a face that will fit nicely on a Wheaties box.

He doesn't have a baby's mama, he has a wife, two kids and a dog. He thinks that "50 Cent" is something you put in a vending machine. He doesn't smoke weed in public. At worst, he gets addicted to pain killers. He says all the right things, all the time, and the fans can even throw beer on him without fear of retaliation.

Then, you make sure that this guy, if he has any talent whatsoever, is given a clear shot at being the MVP. Nash and Nowitzki are perfect, since they are arguably as good as anyone.

But what's interesting is that neither of them did very much in this year's playoffs. The NBA and sportswriters have played the race card in the past, as we can all remember Christian Laettner being chosen over Shaq for the 1992 Olympic Team.

When Laettner and Shaq played together for the Miami Heat, Laettner was so far down the bench, he couldn't even get a ticket to the game.

Nowitzki was a "no-nothing" against Golden State. The brothers came with the funk and showed him how they play ball in Oaktown. Poor Dirk didn't know what hit him, as he was left with a forehead soaked with testicle sweat from whoever dunked on him last.

Nash is going home too, thanks to the continued heroics of a legitimate MVP contender, Tim Duncan. LeBron James, another guy who is clearly better than Nash and Nowitzki, is headed to the conference finals at the age of 22.

THAT, my friends, is what MVPs can do. If Nowitzki or Nash were playing for the Cavs, they would NOT be in the Eastern Conference Finals, and maybe not even in the playoffs.

I hear the moaning now. "BUT, but, but Nash makes his team sooo much better!" Yes, Nash is a great player, even if you give no credit to the amazingly talented men who know what to do with the ball when Nash gives it to them.

He has the ability to IMPROVE a team. However, LeBron and Duncan have the ability to CARRY a team. That, my friends, is the difference.

Nash and Nowitzki should be contenders for the VIP Award -- Very Important Player, or The RHP Award -- Really Helpful Player. Both Nash and "No-Show-Ski" need a strong supporting cast to make anything happen.

LeBron can turn nothing into something. Duncan takes his cast and wins titles with them. Shaq was winning titles when he won the MVP award. If any of these guys had Amare Stoudemire, they would be contenders every year.

The MVP is not the guy who looks best on a Wheaties Box. He's the guy who is most valuable to the league based on his ability. Nash and Nowitzki are nice, but silly sports writers want to make them into the Baby Jesus.

Like the rest of America, they are "blinded by the white".

Even Stevie Wonder can see that clearly.

© Copyright 2005 by BlackAthlete Sports Network
http://www.blackathlete.net/artman2/..._printer.shtml

Lets hear it for casual racism.

alexamenos · 05-21-2007, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmacomic

Lets hear it for casual racism.

kill whitey.

kill, kill, kill whitey.

Stranger · 05-21-2007, 01:35 PM

Perpetuating the stereotype of the black tough-guy athlete is not good for black people, or anybody else. Nor is saying it's "natural" to support players of your own race. Both these articles are silly.

Usually Lurkin · 05-21-2007, 01:47 PM

I thought Ginobli's heroics lifted the Spurs past the Suns.

There's a BlackAthlete sports network???
Please tell me that nobody in this thread is actually saying people don't root for people of their own race, right? Just that we're not supposed to accept it, right?

alexamenos · 05-21-2007, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Please tell me that nobody in this thread is actually saying people don't root for people of their own race, right? Just that we're not supposed to accept it, right?

come to think of it, my selections for 1st and 2nd all-time great mavs......

1st Team All-Mavs --

PG - Brad Davis
SG - Tim Legler
SF - Jim Spanarkel
PF - Dirk Nowitzki
C - Bill Wennington

2nd Team All Mavs --

PG - Steve Nash
SG - Adam Harrington
SF - Jim Spanarkel
PF - Detlef Shcrempf
C - Shawn Bradley

It's got nothing to do with race....I know it may seem a bit unreasonable to put Jim Spanarkel on the 1st and 2nd all-mavs teams, but the guy was that good.

rabbitproof · 05-21-2007, 03:17 PM

Two stupid articles. One thread.

duboh7 · 05-21-2007, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexamenos

come to think of it, my selections for 1st and 2nd all-time great mavs......

1st Team All-Mavs --

PG - Brad Davis
SG - Tim Legler
SF - Jim Spanarkel
PF - Dirk Nowitzki
C - Bill Wennington

2nd Team All Mavs --

PG - Steve Nash
SG - Adam Harrington
SF - Jim Spanarkel
PF - Detlef Shcrempf
C - Shawn Bradley

It's got nothing to do with race....I know it may seem a bit unreasonable to put Jim Spanarkel on the 1st and 2nd all-mavs teams, but the guy was that good.

GASP !!

You left Kurt Nimphias & J. Farmer off this team? Tsk ! Tsk ! ...just no accounting for some opinions! (and Legler should be on NO Mavs fan's fav team ... he hated being in Dallas)

Usually Lurkin · 05-21-2007, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexamenos

come to think of it, my selections for 1st and 2nd all-time great mavs......

1st Team All-Mavs --

[fair list illustrating that white people are underrepresented in Mavs history]

It's got nothing to do with race....I know it may seem a bit unreasonable to put Jim Spanarkel on the 1st and 2nd all-mavs teams, but the guy was that good.

I think we can go ahead and assume that every one on this board is pure and holy and has never had a stray or un-pc thought. But considering that one of the articles came from blackathlete.net, and the author of the other just admits to it, do you think it's possible that own-race favor is a big a factor in NBA marketing, maybe as big as it is in American Idol voting?

dude1394 · 05-21-2007, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Of course that million dollar question is: are you (and people in general) able to switch off this inclination when the stakes are a little higher than who wins a basketball game?

yea I think so, possibly not with who you might initially gravitate to but as you got to know anyone better. Let's face it we all gravitate towards others like yourself, if you say you don't, I'd say you were fooling yourself. Doesn't have to be just race, but financial equality, speech, common culture, religion, common interests, common state, alma mater. That's the way I read it.

dude1394 · 05-21-2007, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I wouldn't compare your alma mater to someone's race. They don't compare IMO. Yea there are times I like seeing the underdog when. The team that isn't suppose to win. The team that's underman. But i've never once cheered for a guy because he looked like me. That's what I found ridiculous.

As far as you cheering for Bird I did as well. I cheered for him because he was a great player. He was greatness. That's why I think the majority of Bird's fans cheered for him. I have a hard time believing it was because he was white.

I think you are taking it way too literal, it's just one factor. There are always multiple ones.

alexamenos · 05-21-2007, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

...do you think it's possible that own-race favor is a big a factor in NBA marketing, maybe as big as it is in American Idol voting?

I think it's a factor in NBA marketing, but way less of a factor than 99% of all other entertainment marketing, and certainly folks prefer to watch similar folks then folks who are different.

A show of hands from all the white folks who watch BET routinely?

Now a show of hands from all the white folks that watch Lost, the whitest collection of people since Gilligan's Island?

(and I realize there's a black dude and his black son on the island, I believe their names are Fred and Lamont.....and of course there's an Iraqi dude, I believe his name is Baboo....still, the tokens are only slightly more token than Token on S. Park)

anyway.........is the NBA going out of it's way to appeal to a crowd that's a little less *street* (ie, white)? Obviously.

Does the NBA go so far as to cause sports writers around the country to vote for Steve and Dirk for MVP because they're white dudes? Not even close.

(The next logical choice for MVP, ironically, was Tim Duncan - he's almost whiter than me. Listen to the dude talk--Timmy sounds so white that he makes me sound like I'm straight from the 'hood, no shiznit.)

cheers

alexamenos · 05-21-2007, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

yea I think so, possibly not with who you might initially gravitate to but as you got to know anyone better. Let's face it we all gravitate towards others like yourself, if you say you don't, I'd say you were fooling yourself. Doesn't have to be just race, but financial equality, speech, common culture, religion, common interests, common state, alma mater. That's the way I read it.

yes -- even dialect is important. I have a strong Texan accent. Put me in a room full of yankees and west coasters and i'll gravitate towards guys from the south in no time.

jthig32 · 05-21-2007, 05:27 PM

I don't see how anyone can claim that what Paul said about people's natural inclications for rooting are ridiculous, when Steve Nash is the poster boy of that idea. And it's not necessarily that he's white, it's that he's short (relatively speaking) and he looks awkward at times. He is forced to do things differently because he can not do the things other players can do. People view him as a "scrapper", working very hard for what he gets. People identify with him.

It's the same reason Bill Bates was such a popular Cowboy.

It's not necessarily just race that makes someone like that more popular than they normally would be, but it does have something to do with it.

And it's not necessarily a bad thing. Like Dude said, everyone has their inclinations to people that are most like themselves.

alexamenos · 05-21-2007, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

...Like Dude said, everyone has their inclinations to root for people that are most like themselves.

one of these days there's gonna be an nba player that's barely 6' tall, who can't jump, shoot or pass, who's kind of stupid on the court and who frankly doesn't hustle that much....

i'm gonna root like hell for that guy.

rmacomic · 05-21-2007, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexamenos

one of these days there's gonna be an nba player that's barely 6' tall, who can't jump, shoot or pass, who's kind of stupid on the court and who frankly doesn't hustle that much....

i'm gonna root like hell for that guy.

You're a Stephon Marbury fan?