[Post Game] Mavs@ Thunder: lol announcer

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Any way you slice it, Barea is the odd man out.

I think you are wrong about that. His minutes will be reduced, yes, when Beaubois comes back. But I would be very surprised if he went away entirely. He'll still get his two stints a game, but they will be shorter.

If I'm wrong, it means that Beaubois is far better equipped to handle the one than he has shown thus far (in one season and a summer league and an injury-stolen training camp). Because Carlisle isn't going to suddenly like Terry at the one any more than he does now.

[xrobx]

i just realized the thunder were on a 5 game win streak before this

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I think you are wrong about that. His minutes will be reduced, yes, when Beaubois comes back. But I would be very surprised if he went away entirely. He'll still get his two stints a game, but they will be shorter.

If I'm wrong, it means that Beaubois is far better equipped to handle the one than he has shown thus far (in one season and a summer league and an injury-stolen training camp). Because Carlisle isn't going to suddenly like Terry at the one any more than he does now.

Well, I would then say with the guards losing minutes when Roddy comes back, JJ is the one taking the biggest hit. Those stints will be significantly shorter.

Right now, it might be out of necessity that he likes JJ more than Jet at the point guard. Someone needs to fill the bulk of the shooting guard minutes and Jet is much more inclined to do that. So when Roddy comes back, the minutes are tighter at the 2. Then it comes down to who is getting minutes: Jet or JJ?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I think you are wrong about that. His minutes will be reduced, yes, when Beaubois comes back. But I would be very surprised if he went away entirely. He'll still get his two stints a game, but they will be shorter.

If I'm wrong, it means that Beaubois is far better equipped to handle the one than he has shown thus far (in one season and a summer league and an injury-stolen training camp). Because Carlisle isn't going to suddenly like Terry at the one any more than he does now.

I think it's very likely that JJ becomes a matchup player and no longer has a consistent spot in the rotation. There has to be a reason that Jet played so much PG during the pre-season.

There's only 48 minutes at SG each game, and Roddy is going to get at least 25 of them. That means you either reduce Jet's role significantly or you give him time at PG. And that's without even considering someone like Stevenson.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

There's only 48 minutes at SG each game, and Roddy is going to get at least 25 of them. That means you either reduce Jet's role significantly or you give him time at PG. And that's without even considering someone like Stevenson.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Stevenson, not JJ, is the guard who is marginalized when Roddy comes back. Not saying that's what should happen, but that's what I'd bet on.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Well, I would then say with the guards losing minutes when Roddy comes back, JJ is the one taking the biggest hit. Those stints will be significantly shorter.

Right now, it might be out of necessity that he likes JJ more than Jet at the point guard. Someone needs to fill the bulk of the shooting guard minutes and Jet is much more inclined to do that. So when Roddy comes back, the minutes are tighter at the 2. Then it comes down to who is getting minutes: Jet or JJ?

That's a very good way of looking at it, and you may very well be right. I mean, you certainly wouldn't conceive of scenarios where Barea played the two alongside Kidd when you had both Jet and (an effective) Beaubois available. So, in the three-guard lineup Barea is definitely toast. But when you are going straight two-guard lineup, I'm not sure I see Terry or Beaubois playing in front of Barea when Kidd sits the bench. Yes, that does reduce Barea's minutes significantly, given that he has played a fair amount of minutes this year on the floor the same time as Kidd, but it certainly doesn't eliminate him entirely.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Stevenson, not JJ, is the guard who is marginalized when Roddy comes back. Not saying that's what should happen, but that's what I'd bet on.

Well as I just pointed out, before you even get to Stevenson you have to marginalize Jet. Are we really thinking Jet and Roddy split the SG minutes and that's all the minutes either of them get?

JJB just doesn't work in the rotation with Roddy, unless you're talking about he and Jet splitting backup PG minutes. That's the absolute ceiling for JJB once Roddy gets back, imo.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Stevenson, not JJ, is the guard who is marginalized when Roddy comes back. Not saying that's what should happen, but that's what I'd bet on.

I mentioned it earlier above, Carlisle loves the toughness and professionalism Stevenson brings. The fact that he's hitting 3s is the icing on the cake. You ride that until it absolutely breaks.

I'd roll with what thiggy said and keep Stevenson in the exact same role he's in now as the guy who sets the table, but he's doing it for Roddy now. Roddy could basically be the wild-card off the bench...ala Manu for a better part of last season.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well as I just pointed out, before you even get to Stevenson you have to marginalize Jet. Are we really thinking Jet and Roddy split the SG minutes and that's all the minutes either of them get?

JJB just doesn't work in the rotation with Roddy, unless you're talking about he and Jet splitting backup PG minutes. That's the absolute ceiling for JJB once Roddy gets back, imo.

I think Roddy cuts a little bit into Kidd's minutes, a little bit into Jet's, a fair amount into JJ's, and completely into Stevenson's. I'm not sure how it will exactly break down as far as who is playing which guard position for how much, but painting in broad strokes, that's my gut feeling on where the overall minutes will decrease.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think it's very likely that JJ becomes a matchup player and no longer has a consistent spot in the rotation. There has to be a reason that Jet played so much PG during the pre-season.

There's only 48 minutes at SG each game, and Roddy is going to get at least 25 of them. That means you either reduce Jet's role significantly or you give him time at PG. And that's without even considering someone like Stevenson.

It gets back to your other point. Meaning, do you really want Jet playing the point when Roddy is playing the two? Aren't they similar players in many regards?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I think Roddy cuts a little bit into Kidd's minutes, a little bit into Jet's, a fair amount into JJ's, and completely into Stevenson's. I'm not sure how it will exactly break down as far as who is playing which guard position for how much, but painting in broad strokes, that's my gut feeling on where the overall minutes will decrease.

Fair enough. I think between Roddy and Jet you can get everything JJB gives you from better players. I think by the end of the year JJB is the third string PG and match up spark plug (think Darrell Armstrong).

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

It gets back to your other point. Meaning, do you really want Jet playing the point when Roddy is playing the two? Aren't they similar players in many regards?

No I don't think they are. I think Roddy and JJB are the similar players.

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

It gets back to your other point. Meaning, do you really want Jet playing the point when Roddy is playing the two? Aren't they similar players in many regards?

Roddy wont play more minutes than Kidd so you can put him all the time together with Kidd in the game.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Fair enough. I think between Roddy and Jet you can get everything JJB gives you from better players. I think by the end of the year JJB is the third string PG and match up spark plug (think Darrell Armstrong).

I'd be quite fine with that, I just wonder if Rick thinks like you do.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Fair enough. I think between Roddy and Jet you can get everything JJB gives you from better players. I think by the end of the year JJB is the third string PG and match up spark plug (think Darrell Armstrong).

Which fits him perfectly...you're just looking for a spark from your 3rd PG. If you get it, it's perfect, if not...he's your 3rd string.

I think Roddy and Jet can co-exist on the court together, preferably if Marion is out there with them for defense. Those guys need the ball in their hands to be effective but both of them have good enough vision to drive and kick. If they kick it to each other, I trust both of them can hit the jumper...definitely more so than Barea.

Jet's defense is much better this year as well, the gambles he's taking are paying off.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Which fits him perfectly...you're just looking for a spark from your 3rd PG. If you get it, it's perfect, if not...he's your 3rd string.

I think Roddy and Jet can co-exist on the court together, preferably if Marion is out there with them for defense. Those guys need the ball in their hands to be effective but both of them have good enough vision to drive and kick. If they kick it to each other, I trust both of them can hit the jumper...definitely more so than Barea.

Jet's defense is much better this year as well, the gambles he's taking are paying off.

I absolutely think Jet and Roddy can work in the backcourt together. It's not ideal, but if Jet/JJB can work there's no reason that Jet/Roddy can't work better.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think between Roddy and Jet you can get everything JJB gives you from better players.

ding, ding, ding


I don't see Carlisle completely eliminating his minutes...but he should.

All JJ brings is an ability to get into the paint and get the ball to the rim...and that really is all. And Roddy does that better.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by sike

ding, ding, ding


I don't see Carlisle completely eliminating his minutes...but he should.

All JJ brings is an ability to get into the paint and get the ball to the rim...and that really is all. And Roddy does that better.

The way Dirk has been talking about Roddy, you've gotta think Carlisle is thinking something along those lines...you just don't expect Carlisle to be openly admitting it.

A lot of this comes to mind...

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I absolutely think Jet and Roddy can work in the backcourt together. It's not ideal, but if Jet/JJB can work there's no reason that Jet/Roddy can't work better.

Sure there is. When Jet and Barea are on the court together, there is a point guard on the floor. We don't know that the same can be said when Jet and Roddy are on the floor together.

I feel like there is this sort of disconnect, between looking at what we deem as a player's overall sort of talent level and looking at how he can play his position. At least when it comes to the backcourt, that is. I think we would all agree that Terry or Beaubois, regardless how good they are as NBA players, can't play the power forward. Why do we seem to think that they necessarily can play the point guard?

I think Barea is a better point guard than Terry. I feel pretty strongly about that, actually. I suspect that Barea is a better point guard than what Roddy will be this year. So why should I expect those guys to take his position?

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I think Barea is a better point guard than Terry. I feel pretty strongly about that, actually. I suspect that Barea is a better point guard than what Roddy will be this year. So why should I expect those guys to take his position?

If we're right, the preseason seems to be an indication that they were looking ahead to when Roddy comes back. Jet was getting minutes at the point guard position and they kept going to it. Why else would they be doing that unless it's at least a theory they want to try out?

Jet also knew that he needed to get the minutes, I believe he asked to get some minutes during the preseason at the point. Everyone knows that Roddy is going to get minutes, so Jet knows his minutes are in danger...thus trying to work at the point.

[dude1394]

Just watched the dirk 7 point run...especially the 3 with a foul...really astonished looking fans...

I also notice that the thunder pipe in the defense call just like everywhere else...

[sike]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Sure there is. When Jet and Barea are on the court together, there is a point guard on the floor. We don't know that the same can be said when Jet and Roddy are on the floor together.

I feel like there is this sort of disconnect, between looking at what we deem as a player's overall sort of talent level and looking at how he can play his position. At least when it comes to the backcourt, that is. I think we would all agree that Terry or Beaubois, regardless how good they are as NBA players, can't play the power forward. Why do we seem to think that they necessarily can play the point guard?

I think Barea is a better point guard than Terry. I feel pretty strongly about that, actually. I suspect that Barea is a better point guard than what Roddy will be this year. So why should I expect those guys to take his position?

Jason Terry didn't run point for their run to the championship series??

Surely you are not saying JJ is a prototypical pass first, keep the offense flowing point guard?

edit: I just noticed you said simply that you think JJ is a better pg than Terry. Can't argue with your opinion I suppose. I would just say neither are really point guards in the typical sense...and one has MUCH more pg experience than the other and that happens to be the one that is a much better basketball player.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Sure there is. When Jet and Barea are on the court together, there is a point guard on the floor. We don't know that the same can be said when Jet and Roddy are on the floor together.

I feel like there is this sort of disconnect, between looking at what we deem as a player's overall sort of talent level and looking at how he can play his position. At least when it comes to the backcourt, that is. I think we would all agree that Terry or Beaubois, regardless how good they are as NBA players, can't play the power forward. Why do we seem to think that they necessarily can play the point guard?

I think Barea is a better point guard than Terry. I feel pretty strongly about that, actually. I suspect that Barea is a better point guard than what Roddy will be this year. So why should I expect those guys to take his position?

I think just about anyone that watches JJB play would agree that he's a tweener guard just like Jet. He's not a prototypical point guard and honestly he's often most effective when playing off the ball.

I think Jet's a far better player and can run the point well enough to make it work.

[dude1394]

I'm in the camp that if jet is playing point, the other team is pressing his ass off. Like roddy...I hope I'm wrong but we'll see.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

If we're right, the preseason seems to be an indication that they were looking ahead to when Roddy comes back. Jet was getting minutes at the point guard position and they kept going to it. Why else would they be doing that unless it's at least a theory they want to try out?

Jet also knew that he needed to get the minutes, I believe he asked to get some minutes during the preseason at the point. Everyone knows that Roddy is going to get minutes, so Jet knows his minutes are in danger...thus trying to work at the point.

I will have to beg your pardon here, because in the midst of that Rangers run among other things, I did not follow the preseason. So regrettably, I can't offer any observations about how well it did or did not work. But as far as testing the theory? Good idea, I'm sure. But, there was a fair amount of back history to go on, no?

I don't know...one way of looking at it would be to say that if you have to use a preseason to look at Terry at the point, given where Terry is at in his career and what his track record is, you probably aren't going to like what you see. It reminds me of Avery Johnson sending Marquis Daniels to summer league to "see what he has" in that player. If you have to look that hard, it's probably not a good sign.

Look, I don't know what Roddy coming back is going to do to everybody's minutes--and let's certainly hope that it's a net positive, because the team is looking pretty darn good right now. But what I think I do know is that the coach likes what he is getting from his backup PG. I realize that goes completely counter to the prevailing opinion on this board, but it doesn't change what I see.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I'm in the camp that if jet is playing point, the other team is pressing his ass off. Like roddy...I hope I'm wrong but we'll see.

Roddy would be perfectly capable of helping beat a press. Roddy has the physical tools to play point guard and would be fully capable of brining the ball up court if it was needed.

[sike]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I'm in the camp that if jet is playing point, the other team is pressing his ass off. Like roddy...I hope I'm wrong but we'll see.

there is a funny sounding phrase in this post...can you find it, kids?

[sike]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Look, I don't know what Roddy coming back is going to do to everybody's minutes--and let's certainly hope that it's a net positive, because the team is looking pretty darn good right now.

I've been thinking about this point...because in this crazy hoop game where chemistry is so important, you certainly CAN have too much of a good thing. I'm wondering how all these vets who are taking less minutes for "the good of the team", etc...respond when/if a young and UNPROVEN second year kid takes some of their precious floor time?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think just about anyone that watches JJB play would agree that he's a tweener guard just like Jet. He's not a prototypical point guard and honestly he's often most effective when playing off the ball.

I think Jet's a far better player and can run the point well enough to make it work.

sike, let me answer both thiggy and you here...


What are you guys thinking, if you don't see a very marked difference in PG play between the two? Unlke thig, I think that just about anyone who watches JJB play would agree that he is a PURE point guard, who is stretched into some SG duties just because we don't really have one of those animals on our team! He is exactly a prototypical point guard, thig.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

sike, let me answer both thiggy and you here...


What are you guys thinking, if you don't see a very marked difference in PG play between the two? Unlke thig, I think that just about anyone who watches JJB play would agree that he is a PURE point guard, who is stretched into some SG duties just because we don't really have one of those animals on our team! He is exactly a prototypical point guard, thig.

Couldn't disagree more, and I've seen numerous notes from Fish that lead me to believe that the Mavs disagree with you too.

I do think that JJB is better at running the point that Jet. But it's not a wide enough gap to offset the difference in their overall talent levels.

[sike]

this has been one of the better post game threads in a long while...a lot of our good guys in here and there is a noticeable absence of noob.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Couldn't disagree more, and I've seen numerous notes from Fish that lead me to believe that the Mavs disagree with you too.

I do think that JJB is better at running the point that Jet. But it's not a wide enough gap to offset the difference in their overall talent levels.

Tell me what you mean by couldn't disagree more, and the notes that you have seen. You are talking about JJB being a tweener? What a tweener guard is, as far as I know, is a guy who is not a pure one. Otherwise he would be a PG and everyone would be happy.

[dude1394]

I don't quite understand the thinking that jjb isn't a point..He's got tremendous handles for example. He drives like a shooting guard but in this nba most pg's do. He plays well off the ball because he drives the ball.

He might not be a great pg, but he's certainly a point.

[sike]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

He is exactly a prototypical point guard

(In my opinion) He is WAY more offensively minded than a prototypical point guard. He is a prototypical scorer in a prototypical point guard's body.

I've been plain spoken in my criticism of JJB, but he has been very valuable at times this season....but when he is at his best and truly helping the team to the best of his abilities, it is NOT because he is keeping the offense moving smoothly or bc he is making the perfect pass. It is because of his uncanny knack of getting in there among the trees and making tough buckets.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Tell me what you mean by couldn't disagree more, and the notes that you have seen. You are talking about JJB being a tweener? What a tweener guard is, as far as I know, is a guy who is not a pure one. Otherwise he would be a PG and everyone would be happy.

Fisher's written multiple times about the feeling within the Mavs that JJB is a SG in a PG's body. Not saying that makes it true but it's been written.

Originally Posted by dude1394

I don't quite understand the thinking that jjb isn't a point..He's got tremendous handles for example. He drives like a shooting guard but in this nba most pg's do. He plays well off the ball because he drives the ball.

He might not be a great pg, but he's certainly a point.

In response to both you and Chum, I would say that a prototypical PG is a pass-first creator. That's prototypical. And I think we can all agree that JJB is not that.

Now, there are certainly many great PG's that don't fit that mold. That's not the only type of PG. But once you move past prototypical, in order to define a PG you have to start assessing a player's ability to direct an offense, to control a game, to make decisions on setting up teammates, etc.

Physical skills are not the indicator, at least not in my mind. If physical skills were the determining factor then Roddy would be PG right now.

I'm certainly not saying JJB is a bad PG. I just don't think he's a true PG. He's not a good facilitator, and he's really not a very good passer. He runs the pick and roll well, but so does Jet. So do a lot of players that aren't points.

He does a lot of dribbling and gets good penetration, and that's good and valuable. But he doesn't pass all that well out of that penetration, which mitigates the value somewhat.

Offensively speaking I think JJB is perfectly fine as a backup PG. I'm not eagerly trying to get rid of him. Please keep in mind that I'm firmly in the camp of JJB defenders on this board. I just think Jet is a far better player and if he can run the point at all, he's not going to lose minutes to JJB. And based on what I saw in the preseason, I think Jet is going to be this team's backup PG by the time the season is over.

I don't think it's a foregone conclusion, mind you. It wouldn't shock me to see JJB hold on to the spot. It's just my prediction that he won't.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

It wouldn't shock me to see JJB hold on to the spot. It's just my prediction that he won't.

I'm already on the record as saying JJ will NOT lose all his floor time...Carlisle likes him...likes his scrappiness. I'm betting he will make time for him, but it WILL be reduced, and perhaps drastically.

Like Roy Williams says, "Write it down."

[LonghornDub]

When I watch JJB, he handles the ball like a prototypical point guard. He can move in and out of the paint, around screens, and around defenders while controlling his dribble very well. He is quite frankly the only guy on the team who can do that, although Roddy has potential.

But for me, that's the only thing he does that's "prototypical point guard." He doesn't pass well, he doesn't create many opportunities for others, he doesn't run the fast break well....

So when I watch JJB play, I think "point guard" whenever I see him in the half court dribbling around guys. But anytime he's doing anything else, that's not what I'm thinking.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by sike

(In my opinion) He is WAY more offensively minded than a prototypical point guard. He is a prototypical scorer in a prototypical point guard's body.

I've been plain spoken in my criticism of JJB, but he has been very valuable at times this season....but when he is at his best and truly helping the team to the best of his abilities, it is NOT because he is keeping the offense moving smoothly or bc he is making the perfect pass. It is because of his uncanny knack of getting in there among the trees and making tough buckets.

And oddly enough, I think you are looking at precisely the wrong things. I mean, the penetration is nice--and sometimes it certainly stands out--but you have to look way deeper than that.

Carlisle has said that we want to be the best zone team in the league, right? Well, we get some comments on this board about how we HAVE to play zone with Barea in there. Stop and think for a minute. Maybe you have it all backward. Maybe Barea is in there precisely *because* we want to be a good zone team. I mean, he is pretty good at it. He works his ass off out there. He gets in there and takes charges on almost a nightly basis. He closes out on shooters. (Remember the Atlanta game, I think it was, when he closed out, recovered from the pump fake, and then closed out again?) He seals down and blocks out guys who are way, way bigger than him. Stop down and scout Barea for a game or two. You may be surprised.

That's the kind of stuff a coach is looking for. Granted, we should see it from every one of our players. But it is highly possible that Barea gives it--day in and day out, in practice and in the games--when the guy who would be playing in his stead does not. I find it interesting that people talk about Chandler rubbing off on Terry, and the good defense that Terry is playing. Yet Barea is out there drawing fouls left and right and no one gives him props for that? Here is one thing I know for damn sure: You can't draw an offensive foul if you aren't in *position* to draw that call. Somehow Barea keeps on being in position, and yet that goes unnoticed? A guy is not in position, and you aren't going to notice that, because the ball just came out of the net and it's going the other way up the floor.

On offense...yes, it is true that Barea can't throw it in the sea from the 3-point line right now, which is very disappointing. But if that is your sole focus, you aren't seeing the whole game. You know what is a big point of emphasis for us (as it should be for every team in the league)? Controlling turnovers. For the most part, Barea does a good job of that. (Trust me, if Jet brought it up every time Barea did, you would see a lot more turnovers. I agree completely with dude here...press Terry and it's game over.) And how about Murph's old mantra, about how the Mavs have never had a PG who would re-post the ball? Watch Barea and Dirk run the two-man game. Barea will re-post it to Dirk until Dirk is sick of it.

But of course, re-posting the ball to Dirk isn't sexy to talk about. It's far sexier to talk about poor Barea missing a rushed three because no one else had the nuts to take the shot before the clock ran out. Bitch about that tree, and never see the forest.

[dude1394]

JJB may be a point or he may be a sg....but he's not very good at either one at the moment. He's going to have to step it up because right now he's killing the second group.

[mac222b]

i like the tough, defensive-minded physicality Stevenson brings to the starts of games. he also spaces the floor, as long as he's hitting and he always plays within himself. that being said it would make sense for Roddy to start as soon as he's ready. otherwise he's not getting enough time on the floor with Kidd and Dirk.

Jet's got to be the back-up PG once Roddy returns. it's the only way there are enough minutes to go around for the top 8. DeShawn and JJB will be relegated to spot duty/matchups. it would be great to get Kidd's minutes down a little more. Jet should be able to handle 15 mins. per at back-up Point, w/JJ& Roddy getting a few as the flow dictates.