Dirk vs. Kobe... the playoffs - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Murphy3 · 04-30-2011, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjeg

You guys seem to forget that kobe started playing in the playoffs right from when he was a rookie. If you start from his first title winning season you will find out his playoffs stats are a lot higher. I'm not doubting dirk's ability to improve his game in the playoffs but kobe has played a lot more playoff games even when he just entered the league.

You know, that is a fair point. But, you can eliminate Kobe's first two years in the playoffs and he's still only had 2 seasons in which his WS/48 is higher than Dirk's average in the playoffs. Including this season, Kobe has had 12 seasons below Dirk's career playoff WS/48. Again, in fairness to Kobe, let's eliminate his first 2 playoff runs and call it 10 seasons below Dirk's career playoff WS/48 average. 2 above and 10 below...

tjeg · 04-30-2011, 03:48 PM

But that only proves Kobe has generally had a better team than dirk(so dirk's contributions reflect more on the the team), not that dirk has played better. You could put dirk in kobe's teams with the numbers he averaged and he will have a lower WS/48 ratio.

Kobe24 · 04-30-2011, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Complete and utter nonsense. As the spurs just illustrated. So duncan, parker, ginoblli WOULD allow it but Kobe wouldn't. Bull, absolute bull.

You have to be out of your mind to think Kobe would have won 67 games and lost to the Warriors out of all teams. I can't believe there's even a debate on who's the better player out of Kobe and Dirk.

PartywithDirk · 04-30-2011, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobe24

You have to be out of your mind to think Kobe would have won 67 games and lost to the Warriors out of all teams. I can't believe there's even a debate on who's the better player out of Kobe and Dirk.

If Kobe was on that Mavs team (and Dirk wasn't) we would've got pounded by GSW just the same.

It wasn't Dirk, it was the matchups the rest of the team had to deal with.

Kobe24 · 04-30-2011, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PartywithDirk

If Kobe was on that Mavs team (and Dirk wasn't) we would've got pounded by GSW just the same.

It wasn't Dirk, it was the matchups the rest of the team had to deal with.

Doubt it. I guess it had nothing to do with Dirk being unable to post up Stephen Jackson and Matt Barnes in the post.

dude1394 · 04-30-2011, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobe24

You have to be out of your mind to think Kobe would have won 67 games and lost to the Warriors out of all teams. I can't believe there's even a debate on who's the better player out of Kobe and Dirk.

Kobe with damp, Josh, jet, devin wouldn't have sniffed 67 games in the first place, to think he magically would have beaten a team that did everything to triple him once he got it and to play with a point(jet) who couldn't get it over the timeline is bull. Not to mention a coach who would have changed his starting lineup in game one to go small.

There is a word for this king of talk but the forum does not allow it. But it starts with bull and ends with crap.

dude1394 · 04-30-2011, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobe24

Doubt it. I guess it had nothing to do with Dirk being unable to post up Stephen Jackson and Matt Barnes in the post.

Did you actually watch the games? Did you see how great the entry passes were to the 3 point line? That was some stellar point guards play.

Popeye · 04-30-2011, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobe24

You have to be out of your mind to think Kobe would have won 67 games and lost to the Warriors out of all teams. I can't believe there's even a debate on who's the better player out of Kobe and Dirk.

I think you're misunderstanding the point of this thread. It's just showing that statistically Dirk's playoff stats are right up there with Kobe, who's rightfully regarded as one of the best players ever. It's really not fair to point out one specific series where Dirk played bad when he's had a career of stellar play in the playoffs.

dude1394 · 04-30-2011, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobe24

You have to be out of your mind to think Kobe would have won 67 games and lost to the Warriors out of all teams. I can't believe there's even a debate on who's the better player out of Kobe and Dirk.

First I'm not debating the beterest between the players. I'm calling bullcrap on then idea that otherworldly Kobe could not get beaten by a number 8 seed. That's the bull that is being ladled here. I've seen Kobe get his ass beat by too many teams to think hes been the real difference maker. Hes a great player but without snack,hasn't done squat. Nothing of consequence.

Not to mention one of the greatest coaches on the bench. Get off his appendage.

Dirkadirkastan · 04-30-2011, 04:36 PM

'07 was a result of incredibly stupid coaching. Look at this example. Is it really Dirk's fault? Barnes is not his man. Who in their right mind double teams at mid court and leaves the entire defense vulnerable to a 4-on-3?

So in terms of "not letting that happen"... yeah, I don't think Phil would let that happen.

Thespiralgoeson · 04-30-2011, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

'07 was a result of incredibly stupid coaching. Look at this example. Is it really Dirk's fault? Barnes is not his man. Who in their right mind double teams at mid court and leaves the entire defense vulnerable to a 4-on-3?

So in terms of "not letting that happen"... yeah, I don't think Phil would let that happen.

Ugh, that was painful to watch and painful to remember. I feel the way about Avery Johnson that Hunter S. Thompson felt about Richard Nixon. It's an undying, passionate hatred. I can't talk about Avery Johnson without getting angry.

That series against Golden State was the single worst example of coaching in NBA playoff history. And if that wasn't bad enough, Cuban decided to waste another year on him. To this day I honestly believe that the Mavs could've made another title run 2008 if they hadn't stuck with Avery.

Kobe24 · 04-30-2011, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

First I'm not debating the beterest between the players. I'm calling bullcrap on then idea that otherworldly Kobe could not get beaten by a number 8 seed. That's the bull that is being ladled here. I've seen Kobe get his ass beat by too many teams to think hes been the real difference maker. Hes a great player but without snack,hasn't done squat. Nothing of consequence.

Not to mention one of the greatest coaches on the bench. Get off his appendage.

Without Shaq hasn't done squat? Right, not like he went to three 3 straight finals and won 2 championships and 2 finals MVP's. Let me guess, what's next? Without Pau, he hasn't done anything either too right?

Kobe24 · 04-30-2011, 05:02 PM

I don't see how anyone can argue Dirk > Kobe at all.

Dirkadirkastan · 04-30-2011, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Ugh, that was painful to watch and painful to remember. I feel the way about Avery Johnson that Hunter S. Thompson felt about Richard Nixon. It's an undying, passionate hatred. I can't talk about Avery Johnson without getting angry.

That series against Golden State was the single worst example of coaching in NBA playoff history. And if that wasn't bad enough, Cuban decided to waste another year on him. To this day I honestly believe that the Mavs could've made another title run 2008 if they hadn't stuck with Avery.

I remember a late season game against the Lakers in '08. The Mavs were hanging tough on the road, then Avery pissed the game away in the fourth by constantly double teaming Kobe at midcourt with Terry and... Dampier.

The Lakers had a lot of fun with that, scoring on just about every possession. Often it ended up with Odom and Gasol passing the ball back and forth, with only poor Dirk left under the basket to stop the charge.

Edit: Here's a clip from that game. This time it was Kidd and not Terry, but still, there's no reason for Damp to step that far away from the basket.

Underdog · 04-30-2011, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobe24

I don't see how anyone can argue Dirk > Kobe at all.

Open your eyes - you're on a Mavs forum...

Thespiralgoeson · 04-30-2011, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

I remember a late season game against the Lakers in '08. The Mavs were hanging tough on the road, then Avery pissed the game away in the fourth by constantly double teaming Kobe at midcourt with Terry and... Dampier.

The Lakers had a lot of fun with that, scoring on just about every possession. Often it ended up with Odom and Gasol passing the ball back and forth, with only poor Dirk left under the basket to stop the charge.

Edit: Here's a clip from that game. This time it was Kidd and not Terry, but still, there's no reason for Damp to step that far away from the basket.

I counted no less than 8 games that season that were lost for no other reason that Avery constantly going small and playing Bass at center. Those were just the ones that I counted. I'm sure there were plenty more. There was no reason we couldn't have won 60 games that year.

Kobe24 · 04-30-2011, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Open your eyes - you're on a Mavs forum...

That's not an excuse to make horrible posts.

wilmtalk · 04-30-2011, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobe24

Doubt it. I guess it had nothing to do with Dirk being unable to post up Stephen Jackson and Matt Barnes in the post.

That statement is an example of either your ignorance or stupidity on the type of offense that was run under Avery. Dirk never set up in the low post under AVery because it was neccessary for him to pass and distribute the ball of the high post. The offense ran through him. That is how Golden State was able to beat the Mavs. They doubled him as he got the ball which negated his effectiveness. Kobe is a different player and Golden State would not have been able to do that with him- But. They would not have won 67 games with him on the roster instead of Dirk. They would thus have not played Golden State rather another team if they make the playoffs at all.

The reason the Mavs won 67 games that year and dominated all the other top teams was because of Dirk. The Warriors were specifically constructed by Nelson to beat Dallas. They had problems against almost every other team because of that. Dallas's stength was used against them. Dallas had serious weaknesses in their roster that was masked by Dirks distributor role in the offense. It required specific tactics which the Warriors had the ideal roster to impliment and use to beat them. It was Nelsons revenge on Cuban but in doing so he destroyed the Warriors for years to come.

Yes with Kobe on that team the dynamics would have been different. But Dirks talents utilized in his teams role made everyone look much better than they actually were. Kobe would not have been able to do that. At that time he was known to take over games purely on his own with the other players basically watching him play one on one. It was not till much later that he realized that teams not individuals win champianships.

They are entirely different players and it would be stupid to attempt to compare their affect on each others teams. Your statement on Dirk, Kobe and the sweep by Golden State is an example of lack of perspective and basketball IQ. As I often post on this site- statistics do not often translate from team to team.

You as many other younger fans appear to be mostly media and stat driven. You have no real perspective for the value of team play instead you over value stat driven players like AI, who while very talented actually are a detriment to their teams. they often do better after they are gone. Kobe once was one of these players until he realized the value of team balence. His stats decreased but his value to his team increased. This is what the media and most fans have ignored about Dirk. His ability to make the players on his team better while still carrying them when necessary. That is the chip on the shoulder that is carried by Mavs fans. The average fans preference for flash over substance. Substance is something that stats often do not reflect.

Underdog · 04-30-2011, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobe24

That's not an excuse to make horrible posts.

Lakers forum

MavsFTR · 04-30-2011, 06:08 PM

Don't feed the troll.

Murphy3 · 04-30-2011, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjeg

But that only proves Kobe has generally had a better team than dirk(so dirk's contributions reflect more on the the team), not that dirk has played better. You could put dirk in kobe's teams with the numbers he averaged and he will have a lower WS/48 ratio.

Sure, that makes some sense as well in certain categories. However, you would think that shooting percentages would lean towards kobe and shooting efficiency considering he has more help and a bit less defensive focus directed at him. But that's not the case at all. All of those stats lean towards Dirk despite Dirk being the loan big time scoring threat.

Murphy3 · 04-30-2011, 06:21 PM

Tjeg, I've have to say that you've represented yourself fairly well here. Thank you. It is a pleasure to see a fan from another team come on this site and present their thoughts and beliefs in such a capacity.

Mavsfan4ever · 04-30-2011, 07:06 PM

I don't see how anyone can say Dirk does not belong in the list of ten greatest? He is likely the best PF to ever play the game and arguably the greatest 7'0" jump shooter ever in the NBA

Kobe24 · 04-30-2011, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavsfan4ever

I don't see how anyone can say Dirk does not belong in the list of ten greatest? He is likely the best PF to ever play the game and arguably the greatest 7'0" jump shooter ever in the NBA

He is not better than KG. Don't even try that.

LonghornDub · 04-30-2011, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobe24

He is not better than KG. Don't even try that.

My god. Just...my god.

Kobe24 · 04-30-2011, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

My god. Just...my god.

You think Dirk > KG or Duncan?

LMAO.

Mav Addict · 04-30-2011, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobe24

He is not better than KG. Don't even try that.

Dirk, and it's not even close

Mav Addict · 04-30-2011, 07:45 PM

I think KG doesn't belong in the same sentence with Duncan and Dirk

KG was overrated in his prime and no comment on his game now

mavs777 · 04-30-2011, 07:45 PM

Duncan>Dirk>KG

Murphy3 · 04-30-2011, 07:50 PM

I can agree with that Mavs777. KG is overrated in my opinion. His attitude has always caused people to overrate him.

LonghornDub · 04-30-2011, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobe24

You think Dirk > KG or Duncan?

LMAO.

Uh, where did I say anything about Duncan?

Jesus, man. Read the posts.

Murphy3 · 04-30-2011, 08:18 PM

I just ran across an absolutely amazing statistic
The top 5 in the history of the game in WS/48 in playoffs history(minimum 81 games):

1. Michael Jordan - .2553
2. Magic Johnson - .2078
3. Dirk Nowitzki - .2057

Now, if you want to lower the requirements to 50 games, Mikan and Lebron James would be ahead of Dirk. Unfortunately, the statistical data for Mikan is incomplete. It appears that his other seasons would have lowered his per..but there's no real way to know. He would fit in at second with Lebron at third if you went down to including everyone with 50 or more playoff games.

then it would be:

Jordan
Mikan
James
Magic
Dirk

Regardless of the cutoff, dirk's in some rather rare company.

Kobe checks in at 40th just a little behind Cedric Maxwell.

GermanDunk · 04-30-2011, 08:21 PM

Yeah. Let´s compare O with D players ... Makes sense.

Murphy3 · 04-30-2011, 08:41 PM

Top 50 WS/48 from basketball-reference.com
WS/48
1. Michael Jordan* 0.2553
2. George Mikan* 0.2541
3. LeBron James 0.2359
4. Magic Johnson* 0.2078
5. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2057
6. Jerry West* 0.2031
7. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.1998
8. David Robinson* 0.1992
9. Tim Duncan 0.1991
10. Dwight Howard 0.1986
11. Walt Frazier* 0.1934
12. Charles Barkley* 0.1932
13. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.1929
14. Chauncey Billups 0.1917
15. Frank Ramsey* 0.1902
16. Dolph Schayes* 0.1890
17. Hakeem Olajuwon* 0.1887
18. Baron Davis 0.1886
19. Shaquille O'Neal 0.1845
20. Paul Arizin* 0.1827
21. Dwyane Wade 0.1817
22. Manu Ginobili 0.1816
23. Pau Gasol 0.1809
24. Reggie Miller 0.1799
25. Oscar Robertson* 0.1783
26. Bill Russell* 0.1778
27. Bob Lanier* 0.1755
28. Bill Sharman* 0.1739
29. George Yardley* 0.1736
30. Kevin McHale* 0.1736
31. Larry Bird* 0.1731
32. Moses Malone* 0.1728
33. Cliff Hagan* 0.1718
34. Adrian Dantley* 0.1716
35. Cedric Maxwell 0.1713
36. Don Nelson 0.1683
37. Amare Stoudemire 0.1653
38. Ben Wallace 0.1636
39. Ray Allen 0.1612
40. Kobe Bryant 0.1607
41. John Stockton* 0.1602
42. Bob Pettit* 0.1590
43. Vern Mikkelsen* 0.1588
44. Sam Jones* 0.1570
45. Brad Daugherty 0.1570
46. Bobby Jones 0.1560
47. Horace Grant 0.1556
48. Kevin Garnett 0.1554
49. Shawn Kemp 0.1548
50. John Salley 0.1526

Kobe24 · 04-30-2011, 08:44 PM

Silly Mavs fans. Using some irrelevant never heard of made up formula to discredit Kobe and credit Dirk.

jthig32 · 04-30-2011, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mav Addict

I think KG doesn't belong in the same sentence with Duncan and Dirk

KG was overrated in his prime and no comment on his game now

Let's tap the breaks here. I'll take Dirk's career over KG's, but not even close? KG's one of the best defensive players this game has ever seen. And he's STILL one the game's elite defensive big men right now.

I'll take Duncan over Dirk and Dirk over KG, but saying any of the three isn't in the conversation or not close to the other two is hyperbolic.

And for the record, I think KG is my least favorite NBA player of this generation. I can't stand the dude. But let's give credit where it's due.

Also, to Murph, I would say that I like the effort to show how dominant Dirk has been in the playoffs, but Win Shares is a pretty craptastic statistic.

chumdawg · 04-30-2011, 09:03 PM

That's a pretty amazing stat, Murph. Man, we are in the company of greatness right now...and some of us don't even know it!

Dirkadirkastan · 04-30-2011, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobe24

Silly Mavs fans. Using some irrelevant never heard of made up formula to discredit Kobe and credit Dirk.

Look kid, this forum has a lot of smart people on it. We discuss X's and O's and understand the value of advanced statistical metrics to analyze the worth of different players to their respective teams.

As a Lakers fan, I'm sure this level of intelligence escapes you. You come from a culture that always sucks Kobe's dick no matter what happens. Your selective memory allows you to praise him for making one clutch shot, while forgetting the fact his previous five bricks and offensive foul were exactly what allowed his opponent back into the game (see the last regular season game against the Kings). In other words, Kobe's only wildly successful if you ignore all his failures.

Kobe24 · 04-30-2011, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Look kid, this forum has a lot of smart people on it. We discuss X's and O's and understand the value of advanced statistical metrics to analyze the worth of different players to their respective teams.

As a Lakers fan, I'm sure this level of intelligence escapes you. You come from a culture that always sucks Kobe's dick no matter what happens. Your selective memory allows you to praise him for making one clutch shot, while forgetting the fact his previous five bricks and offensive foul were exactly what allowed his opponent back into the game (see the last regular season game against the Kings). In other words, Kobe's only wildly successful if you ignore all his failures.

5 rings

Dirk - 0

Keep crying some more. Preparing for the offseason yet?

Mavsfan4ever · 04-30-2011, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobe24

5 rings

Dirk - 0

Keep crying some more. Preparing for the offseason yet?

Really can you not carry on an intelligent conversation?