Jeremy Lin....

[Big Boy Laroux]

They definitely mentioned the record for turnovers on SportsCenter, immediately following the points record.

It's much easier to overlook the turnovers as the Knicks are winning. Also, ball control is something that can be learned/practiced. He's not used to having the ball in his hands this much, or playing this many minutes. He's the Nash in D'antoni's system - remember Nash's TO's per game increased in the D'antoni system, to over 3 a game (some seasons over 3.5) - just the nature of that system, that relies so heavily on the PG.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Whenever his scoring is quoted, so are his turnovers.

That's just a flat out lie, but you've already shown you aren't going to be anywhere near objective when it comes to Lin.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

They definitely mentioned the record for turnovers on SportsCenter, immediately following the points record.

It's much easier to overlook the turnovers as the Knicks are winning. Also, ball control is something that can be learned/practiced. He's not used to having the ball in his hands this much, or playing this many minutes. He's the Nash in D'antoni's system - remember Nash's TO's per game increased in the D'antoni system, to over 3 a game (some seasons over 3.5) - just the nature of that system, that relies so heavily on the PG.

I didn't see it, but they certainly haven't showed it repeatedly like they have his other record (which I've seen displayed 12 times on Sportscenter in a mere 2 days).

[rabbitproof]

I saw it on ESPN.com and heard it on multiple podcasts. Not sure why you're tripping and hating on this kid.

He's doing great. That's all I've said.

Relax.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by CadBane

That's just a flat out lie, but you've already shown you aren't going to be anywhere near objective when it comes to Lin.

But you are the master of that, right?

[Big Boy Laroux]

No one is denying the guy turns the ball over. But he's scoring, distributing the ball, and the knicks are on a 6-game win streak since he started logging heavy minutes. Of course people are going to focus on the positive.

He only had 1 TO against the Nets, and 2 against the wizards, both in 36 minutes of play. so it's not like he's losing the ball every game. I'd imagine the TO's have more to do with fatigue than anything else.

[rabbitproof]

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

No one is denying the guy turns the ball over. But he's scoring, distributing the ball, and the knicks are on a 6-game win streak since he started logging heavy minutes. Of course people are going to focus on the positive.

He only had 1 TO against the Nets, and 2 against the wizards, both in 36 minutes of play. so it's not like he's losing the ball every game. I'd imagine the TO's have more to do with fatigue than anything else.

Yeah, everybody knows he's turning it over. It's his scoring, passing and winning that's most worth printing though. If they start losing, the turnovers will get the limelight.

[Scoobay]

http://www.postingandtoasting.com/20...-of-fame-level

Ok so not exactly a bias-free site or post, but it's nice to look at some numbers.
Interesting that his usage rate is so high.


"So why does he have so many turnovers? His usage rate is the highest of all the point guards on the list; in fact, he's 5th among all players, ahead of Kevin Durant, and just a bit behind Carmelo and Lebron. He's been relied upon to make plays for and carry this team almost all the time he's on the floor, and he's been on that floor a disproportionate amount of the time compared to his teammates. This naturally results in more turnovers. Factor in the fatigue involved with such high minutes and usage and the turnover situation can seem to get a little out of control. As a result, you end up with a stinky Assist:Turnover ratio despite good play. Now, that isn't to say that Lin couldn't be doing more to rein his TO's in, as he certainly plays aggressively and sometimes, recklessly. But he isn't as bad as simply looking at the number of turnovers would suggest. He's been pretty damn good. Hope he keeps it up. If he can, those Stockton and Nash comparisons might not be so ridiculous after all."

[Big Boy Laroux]

Thanks, scoobay, that's what I was getting at with the discussion on d'Antoni's system. It really uses the PG. not surprised to see his usage rate so high.

[Male30Dan]

Simply don't understand the Lin hate. Cad, does your real name rhyme with Moyd Layfeather?

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

Thanks, scoobay, that's what I was getting at with the discussion on d'Antoni's system. It really uses the PG. not surprised to see his usage rate so high.

You can't have it both ways. A lot of his points & assists are due to high usage and minutes in the Dan Toni system. Raymond freaking Felton looked like an all-star under Dan Toni. People want to totally ignore this, but use the same points as excuses for his turnovers. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Look, Lin has played very very good ball, and it's a great story. I'm not denying that. I'd just like to see some objectivity applied when discussing him.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by Male30Dan

Simply don't understand the Lin hate. Cad, does your real name rhyme with Moyd Layfeather?

Jason Whitlock was worse. Did you see what he said? I guarantee if a White reporter had pulled that, he'd be fired.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by CadBane

Jason Whitlock was worse. Did you see what he said? I guarantee if a White reporter had pulled that, he'd be fired.

Indeed I did. Iggy jumped in as well recently.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by CadBane

You can't have it both ways. A lot of his points & assists are due to high usage and minutes in the Dan Toni system. Raymond freaking Felton looked like an all-star under Dan Toni. People want to totally ignore this, but use the same points as excuses for his turnovers. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Look, Lin has played very very good ball, and it's a great story. I'm not denying that. I'd just like to see some objectivity applied when discussing him.

Most fans of the NBA don't care about the "objectivity" you place on a pedestal. Rather, they are enjoying being entertained by an incredibly interesting phenomenon.

Not to get too "meta" on you...but that might be something you should include in your assessment.

[Scoobay]

Originally Posted by CadBane

You can't have it both ways. A lot of his points & assists are due to high usage and minutes in the Dan Toni system. Raymond freaking Felton looked like an all-star under Dan Toni. People want to totally ignore this, but use the same points as excuses for his turnovers. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Look, Lin has played very very good ball, and it's a great story. I'm not denying that. I'd just like to see some objectivity applied when discussing him.

i think the main counter i'd give to it being just the system is that Lin is shooting 50% from the field. Don't have to look too far if you're wanting to find someone that'll just dominate the rock and jack up all kinds of junk just to fill up on points (cough, Melo)

What did Felton shoot last year under Dantoni? 42.3%.

here of course you'd argue sample size, but so far he's playing very very well and it's not just 'system'. He's playing in the system yes but he's making those opportunities count whether scoring or distributing. (5+ TO/game in the last 7 is putrid - he's got stuff to work on no doubt)

all that aside, it's fun watching him play. another bundle of TO's tonight, but also tons of nice assists.

[Big Boy Laroux]

Originally Posted by CadBane

You can't have it both ways. A lot of his points & assists are due to high usage and minutes in the Dan Toni system. Raymond freaking Felton looked like an all-star under Dan Toni. People want to totally ignore this, but use the same points as excuses for his turnovers. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Look, Lin has played very very good ball, and it's a great story. I'm not denying that. I'd just like to see some objectivity applied when discussing him.

I think I'm being very objective. I've acknowledged the turnovers - how can you not? It's a fact that he is turning the ball over, and he needs to improve that aspect of his game (which is a teachable skill). But did you even look at the link scoobay posted? Highest usage rate among PGs, lower TO% than most of them, (most notably Nash).

Of course a higher usage rate results in more shots and points. That's why it's important to look at the percentages. FG%, TO%, AST% tell the story.

At this point you're arguing with no one. Arguing for the sake of arguing. You're not being objective, but on the negative end of the spectrum. Pot, meet Kettle.

[Big Boy Laroux]

Originally Posted by CadBane

Jason Whitlock was worse. Did you see what he said? I guarantee if a White reporter had pulled that, he'd be fired.

We agree on something - that was ludicrous. Did he ever issue an apology?

[Big Boy Laroux]

Make it a 7 game win streak. More TOs last night, but he brought it down to 6!

13 assists. He had a 4X5 (if you count turnovers...)

[bobbyfg7]

I simply can't think of an instance when I had cake and didn't eat it ....

[Big Boy Laroux]

Originally Posted by bobbyfg7

I simply can't think of an instance when I had cake and didn't eat it ....

ha ha, i've always hated that figure of speech myself - for exactly what you just said.

But i just looked it up. it's origins were actually the reverse - would you be able to eat your cake, then still have it afterwards? Which is obviously impossible, and is the intent of the saying. So the meaning still stands, but the way it has been twisted around doesn't really make sense anymore.

[SMC0007]

Jeremy Lin for president!

[b_o_r]

Originally Posted by CadBane

Jason Whitlock was worse. Did you see what he said? I guarantee if a White reporter had pulled that, he'd be fired.

Why would he be fired for insulting someone of Asian descent when insults African-Americans daily? Fox sports love his shock writing and has done so for years.

[Big Boy Laroux]

At least Lin's turnovers aren't THIS bad - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxhJvgKNUCI

[iella]

j0shi, feel like you'd appreciate this:

The Delivery Guy Who Saw Jeremy Lin Coming

In May 2010, an unsung numbers hobbyist named Ed Weiland wrote a long-term forecast of Jeremy Lin for the basketball website Hoops Analyst. At the time, Lin was a lightly regarded, semi-known point guard who had completed his final season at Harvard. But Weiland saw NBA material. He emphasized how well Lin played in three nonconference games against big schools: Connecticut, Boston College and Georgetown. He noted how Lin's performance in two unsexy statistical categories—two-point field-goal percentage (a barometer of inside scoring ability) and RSB40 (rebounds, steals and blocks per 40 minutes) compared favorably with college numbers put up by marquee NBA guards like Allen Iverson and Gary Payton. Weiland concluded that Lin had to improve on his passing and leadership at the point, but argued that if he did, "Jeremy Lin is a good enough player to start in the NBA and possibly star."

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

I think I'm being very objective. I've acknowledged the turnovers - how can you not? It's a fact that he is turning the ball over, and he needs to improve that aspect of his game (which is a teachable skill). But did you even look at the link scoobay posted? Highest usage rate among PGs, lower TO% than most of them, (most notably Nash).

Of course a higher usage rate results in more shots and points. That's why it's important to look at the percentages. FG%, TO%, AST% tell the story.

At this point you're arguing with no one. Arguing for the sake of arguing. You're not being objective, but on the negative end of the spectrum. Pot, meet Kettle.

I wasn't speaking of you being not objective, but rather people in general. I'm not arguing with no one, I'm arguing with people that think the guy is a lock to be a future all-star.

[EricaLubarsky]

wonder where Roddy would be if Carlisle played him through 8 TOs and gave him free reign to be aggressive without fear.

I like Lin but it really makes you wonder how many players could be great if they were given the PT at the point to learn without being yanked.

[Big Boy Laroux]

Originally Posted by CadBane

I wasn't speaking of you being not objective, but rather people in general. I'm not arguing with no one, I'm arguing with people that think the guy is a lock to be a future all-star.

Well, when you quote me and say there's no objectivity, that's the inference I make.

Also, not sure who is claiming he's a future all-star... maybe smc is the only one? Everyone else seems to be thinking it's a great story and he could be a factor in the league.

[Big Boy Laroux]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

wonder where Roddy would be if Carlisle played him through 8 TOs and gave him free reign to be aggressive without fear.

I like Lin but it really makes you wonder how many players could be great if they were given the PT at the point to learn without being yanked.

Like under Nellie...

Also add the fact that d'antoni was on a VERY hot seat - he was willing to try anything and stick with it.

[Kidd Karma]

Lin added to the rookie game along with Norris Cole. He goes in the 2nd round to Shaq.

[j0Shi]

Originally Posted by iella

j0shi, feel like you'd appreciate this:

The Delivery Guy Who Saw Jeremy Lin Coming

Nice, thx. Others call these "hustle-stats" (REBs, STLs, BLKs). I keep my eye on them as well and include fouls. Whenever a player is able to produce in these three categories without fouling it's a very good sign in terms of basketball smarts, because you can't just be over-aggressive to push these stats without fouling more often.

Very nice call from that dude, although I lack a solid research if "hustle-stats" indeed are a good approach to future performance. For now I'd stick to my "play now, benefit later" suggestion, because it's well documented.

Lin has been added to the Rookie Game. All good things happen to this guy right now and you gotta love it. It's a once-in-a-decade story, if at all. It's when circumstances meet talent and an otherwise improbable saga unfolds in front of our eyes. Brilliant.

[b_o_r]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

wonder where Roddy would be if Carlisle played him through 8 TOs and gave him free reign to be aggressive without fear.

I like Lin but it really makes you wonder how many players could be great if they were given the PT at the point to learn without being yanked.

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

Like under Nellie...

Also add the fact that d'antoni was on a VERY hot seat - he was willing to try anything and stick with it.

It's a combination of skill set as well as system and opportunity.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

Well, when you quote me and say there's no objectivity, that's the inference I make.

Also, not sure who is claiming he's a future all-star... maybe smc is the only one? Everyone else seems to be thinking it's a great story and he could be a factor in the league.

It was pretty obvious that I wasn't speaking of you and objectivity. I quoted you with regard to usage & turnovers/points.

Tons of people are claiming him a future all-star. You do realize that people outside of this board are discussing him, right? Check out RealGM sometime.

[Big Boy Laroux]

I follow a lot of Sports & NBA people (and fans) on twitter - none are claiming him to be a future all-star. In fact, i follow an asian knicks fan (netw3rk) who tweets about Lin all the time, and even he has a level head about it. i have yet to hear anyone say that he is a future all-star.

The consensus is that it's a great story, it's great for the knicks, it's great for asian-americans, and he can be a contributor in the NBA. ESPN talks about him all the time because it is THE story in the NBA right now - but i've never heard even one of their sensationalist anchors claim him to be all-star material.

If your only other sample is RealGM, then so be it. I don't venture over there.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

I follow a lot of Sports & NBA people (and fans) on twitter - none are claiming him to be a future all-star. In fact, i follow an asian knicks fan (netw3rk) who tweets about Lin all the time, and even he has a level head about it. i have yet to hear anyone say that he is a future all-star.

The consensus is that it's a great story, it's great for the knicks, it's great for asian-americans, and he can be a contributor in the NBA. ESPN talks about him all the time because it is THE story in the NBA right now - but i've never heard even one of their sensationalist anchors claim him to be all-star material.

If you're only other sample is RealGM, then so be it. I don't venture over there.

You probably shouldn't make finite statements when you're flat-out wrong.

"I follow a lot of Sports & NBA people (and fans) on twitter - none are claiming him to be a future all-star."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colum...ame/53111474/1

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/spor...game-poll.html

http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/15/sh...-nba-all-star/

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/02/...-lines-on-lin/

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...ll-star-game/1

Want a re-do?

[Big Boy Laroux]

Are those people i follow? No - want your own re-do? I never said no one EVER has said it - i said of what I have seen (my own timeline and sportscenter) i have not heard it.

In regard to your links - those are sensationalist articles, and every single one of them is ridiculous. Those are people writing/grasping at straws. I don't respect the opinion of a single one of them. I don't consider any of those to be worthy Sports/NBA people. USA Today? Seriously?

It is ridiculous to even begin to request that Lin be an all-star this season. Every single one of those writers should be ashamed.

[mary]

Somebody just posted a link to a USA today article...about sports..*snicker*.

[mary]

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

Are those people i follow? No - want your own re-do? I never said no one EVER has said it - i said of what I have seen (my own timeline and sportscenter) i have not heard it.

In regard to your links - those are sensationalist articles, and every single one of them is ridiculous. Those are people writing/grasping at straws. I don't respect the opinion of a single one of them. I don't consider any of those to be worthy Sports/NBA people. USA Today? Seriously?

It is ridiculous to even begin to request that Lin be an all-star this season. Every single one of those writers should be ashamed.

I don't think they're trying to make basketball points....just saying it would make the game more entertaining....or that it would cause more interest in the game. (I'm not sure they are wrong about that) I clicked on a few of them, didn't look like anyone was making a merit-based case for Lin playing in the ASG. Not sure if cadban bothered reading his own links.

Edit: Stand corrected, the cbs writer is a nutso, but I can't say I've ever heard of him.

[Big Boy Laroux]

Even from an entertainment standpoint, or a huge asian fanbase standpoint, it's still ridiculous in terms of worthiness (although yes, it would generate buzz). Would be slightly better than vince making it the year he was injured.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

Are those people i follow? No - want your own re-do? I never said no one EVER has said it - i said of what I have seen (my own timeline and sportscenter) i have not heard it.

In regard to your links - those are sensationalist articles, and every single one of them is ridiculous. Those are people writing/grasping at straws. I don't respect the opinion of a single one of them. I don't consider any of those to be worthy Sports/NBA people. USA Today? Seriously?

It is ridiculous to even begin to request that Lin be an all-star this season. Every single one of those writers should be ashamed.

Yes, because random fans on Twitter hold more credence than USA Today...

You stated that you have not seen anyone saying anything of this nature as though that makes it so. It's not.

I'm not saying *you* agree with them. Heck, I don't even oppose your position on Lin. I'm just saying that there *are* people that are jumping the gun on Lin. More than you'd think. Thus my cry for more objectivity in general concerning Lin.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by mary

I don't think they're trying to make basketball points....just saying it would make the game more entertaining....or that it would cause more interest in the game. (I'm not sure they are wrong about that) I clicked on a few of them, didn't look like anyone was making a merit-based case for Lin playing in the ASG. Not sure if cadban bothered reading his own links.

Edit: Stand corrected, the cbs writer is a nutso, but I can't say I've ever heard of him.

Not sure you read them, actually. Isn't there a meatloaf that needs cooking?