Rondo?

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by j0Shi

Doesn't this apply in any scenario? We are going nowhere without Tyson.

True, but Greg Smith as your only choice is a far worse scenario. I think we'd at least have a hail mary shot with someone who knows how to play the position.

[Twenty4sevenn]

Yeah, you can say that about almost any team. If their defensive anchor and leader goes down, they are screwed.

But you can't pass on deals because one of your guys MIGHT get hurt. That's silly.

[sefant77]

Yep, we are toast without Tyson anyway, doesnt matter if its Wright or JO or anyone else being the backup

[GermanStandard]

Yeah right give me Avery Bradley over Rondo. What a brilliant idea.

Also Lance "Knucklehead" Stephenson who is shooting 38% (Rondo 40,5%) and a bumming 63% from the Line would be a better fit?

Wow man dont even know what to say.

Yeah Rondo shoots 33% from the Line this year. He is not even attempting 2 Freethrows a game so i dont know why this should be a huge No-Go.

The Time is now again for this team. Dirk wont play on a highlevel for many more years.

Wright is fine and all but not a good Defender or Rebounder and looks as bad against the elite West guys (Duncan, Griffin, Jordan, Lee, Randolph, Gasol etc.) as Nelson against the Elite PGs.

If Wright+1st Rounder+ Scrub can get the deal done its a no Brainer. But i dont think the C's would give up Rondo for so less.

The Mavs Pick will likely be in the 20-30 range.

[Windmill360]

Who do we replace Wright with if he's gone? smith? Okafor? Sarge?

[sefant77]

Lins TPE expires tomorrow, so i guess we know pretty soon if Morey is willing to outbid us.

But the "insider" on clutchfans aka Moreys b*tch who leaks there the rumors Morey wanna have leaked says the Rockets are after Brewer with the exception and prefer to keep their payroll cleaner.

[howdoesmydirktaste]

Giving up a back up center and parts for a top 5 point guard is a no-brainer. If the knock on Rondo is that he can't shoot then we are in luck, because everyone else on this team does shoot. We suck at defense and rebounding. He's an upgrade in both areas. As much as it sucks giving up Wright, our team will instantly be better and we will have financial flexibility to keep the core of Dirk, Chandler, Parson, Ellis and Rondo for years to come. That could be appealing to keep Rondo here after he becomes a FA in the offseason. It could also prolong Dirk's career, which we all want to see.

[iggymcfly]

Originally Posted by howdoesmydirktaste

Giving up a back up center and parts for a top 5 point guard is a no-brainer.

Well, duh. Hell, it's an even a no-brainer for a Top 10 PG. Unfortunately Westbrook, Curry, CP3, Lowry, Conley, Kyrie, Rose, Parker, Wall, and Lillard aren't on the market. Hell I'd do it for Teague, Lawson, D-Will, or Bledsoe with no qualms too. When you get down to a league average PG who happens to be a terrible fit for our league best offense though, that's a little different.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

Well, duh. Hell, it's an even a no-brainer for a Top 10 PG. Unfortunately Westbrook, Curry, CP3, Lowry, Conley, Kyrie, Rose, Parker, Wall, and Lillard aren't on the market. Hell I'd do it for Teague, Lawson, D-Will, or Bledsoe with no qualms too. When you get down to a league average PG who happens to be a terrible fit for our league best offense though, that's a little different.

But he's a fantastic fit for our league worst rebounding and our bottom 5 defense.

Isn't that more important than fitting with an already uber-elite offense? If we fall to, say, 8th in offense, but climb to 10-15 in defense, that's probably a trade we should all take. And I doubt our offense falls that much. I agree he's a really bad fit offensively, but he's replacing Jameer freaking Nelson.

[howdoesmydirktaste]

Also, if we get Rondo and we start scoring 102 points per game, instead of 110 points per game, but start only giving up 92 points per game instead of 102 points per game, I'd rather do that.

[iggymcfly]

Originally Posted by howdoesmydirktaste

Also, if we get Rondo and we start scoring 102 points per game, instead of 110 points per game, but start only giving up 92 points per game instead of 102 points per game, I'd rather do that.

If a below average defender could improve our defense by 10 points per game, that would be quite a magic trick! Again, these are completely unrealistic expectations for Rondo. Here's what Rondo gets you:

-1.5 rebounds per game over an average PG
-The ability to create an OK possession with the ball in his hands
-Semi-competent NBA defense.

That's it. He also makes it impossible to get elite offense unless surrounded by 4 shooters (not 3, 4, so it won't work with Chandler out there), and the things that he does get you are easier to replace than 20 minutes of the best finishing ability and shot-blocking you'll find on an NBA bench.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

If a below average defender could improve our defense by 10 points per game, that would be quite a magic trick! Again, these are completely unrealistic expectations for Rondo. Here's what Rondo gets you:

-1.5 rebounds per game over an average PG
-The ability to create an OK possession with the ball in his hands
-Semi-competent NBA defense.

That's it. He also makes it impossible to get elite offense unless surrounded by 4 shooters (not 3, 4, so it won't work with Chandler out there), and the things that he does get you are easier to replace than 20 minutes of the best finishing ability and shot-blocking you'll find on an NBA bench.

Chandler creates spacing. More spacing than a lot of shooters.

The idea that what Rondo gives you is easier to replace than Wright is pretty farfetched.

[Twenty4sevenn]

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

If a below average defender could improve our defense by 10 points per game, that would be quite a magic trick! Again, these are completely unrealistic expectations for Rondo. Here's what Rondo gets you:

-1.5 rebounds per game over an average PG
-The ability to create an OK possession with the ball in his hands
-Semi-competent NBA defense.

That's it. He also makes it impossible to get elite offense unless surrounded by 4 shooters (not 3, 4, so it won't work with Chandler out there), and the things that he does get you are easier to replace than 20 minutes of the best finishing ability and shot-blocking you'll find on an NBA bench.

I hope you're trolling.

[howdoesmydirktaste]

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

If a below average defender could improve our defense by 10 points per game, that would be quite a magic trick! Again, these are completely unrealistic expectations for Rondo. Here's what Rondo gets you:

-1.5 rebounds per game over an average PG
-The ability to create an OK possession with the ball in his hands
-Semi-competent NBA defense.

That's it. He also makes it impossible to get elite offense unless surrounded by 4 shooters (not 3, 4, so it won't work with Chandler out there), and the things that he does get you are easier to replace than 20 minutes of the best finishing ability and shot-blocking you'll find on an NBA bench.

Putting him into our lineup would change the way we run our offense and defense. I don't think he will make a 10PPG difference because of his defensive skills alone. I think we will have to change the way we run our offense. This may slow down the game. Thus, our offense and defense numbers would go down together. At least that's the way I imagine it turning out. Sorry if I didn't explain it well enough.

[EricaLubarsky]

Pros
We'd be trading offense (which we have too much of) for defense
We need defense
We'd be getting the #1 rebounding PG in the game
we need rebounding
We'd be getting one of the toughest competitors in the game
We need toughness
We'd be getting a guy who creates assists on 44% of his possessions (also #1)
We'd be replacing or supplementing Nelson/Felton/Harris
We need a stronger PG position.
Cost (?)

Cons
Cost (?)
Can he play with Ellis? Ellis needs the ball to be most effective
Can we keep Ellis?
We'd still have no three point shooting
Wright is our only effective big off the bench if he's included
Rondo can be a P.I.T.A

[DirkFTW]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Cons
Cost (?)
Can he play with Ellis? Ellis needs the ball to be most effective
Can we keep Ellis?
We'd still have no three point shooting
Wright is our only effective big off the bench if he's included
Rondo can be a P.I.T.A

I also hear Rondo tends to repeat the same things over and over.

[Kante]

Hmm...

- Spacing problems on offense
- He is an "interesting" character
- Needs the ball in his hands (Other guys share the load)
- Loss of Wright would be tough the way he plays this year

So, no?

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by Kante

Hmm...

- Spacing problems on offense
- He is an "interesting" character
- Needs the ball in his hands (Other guys share the load)
- Loss of Wright would be tough the way he plays this year

So, no?

Wright is an UFA this summer. He could come back, but I totally agree. The dude is our 6th man sparkplug and our only good backup big. Plus he's fantastic playing with Harris on the second unit.

[tap2390]

I appreciate how Wright has developed with the Mavs but it's amazing to me that people are hesitant to deal him for Rondo. IMO it's a no-brainer. Wright has been fantastic, efficient, and has great chemistry with the squad but he's limited in what he can do because of his size. He accumulated most of his stats during a stretch in December where we weren't playing many contenders. He quite frankly is not that good against physical bigs... and we can expect to see a few in the West playoffs.

I think people are overstating the inability of Ellis and Rondo to coexist. I think it actually helps Ellis to have another ball handler on the floor and alleviates some pressure on him. I don't think people realize how much Ellis has been asked to do. We're initiating everything through him, Nelson has been utterly useless.

[rimrocker]

I understand those who don't want to give up Wright but I think this potential deal helps solve all of our problems (perimeter defense, rebounding, floor leadership, mental attitude/toughness and interior defense).

Mavs would be forced to find a true backup center with size to replace Wright which has been one of our greatest needs from the beginning. Wright is great and fun to watch but that game against the grizz was brutal to watch.

On another note...I'm wondering how much the GS game prompted Donnie to begin or escalate negotiations for Rondo.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

I will say that if Rondo joined the team, then our starting five would be all pretty close in very, very good talent.

And sometimes things happen for a reason. Funny that this news comes out after Nelson's worst game as a Maverick.

[grndmstr_c]

Just a thought on the Rondo and Ellis both needing the ball in their hands to be effective thing…Rondo had a ton of success with Pierce, and Pierce very much an on-ball kind of player. Now, there is the stuff about Ray and Rondo out there, but IMO as an outside observer that Reggie Miller type role that Ray Allen slid into as Rondo was coming into his own was the best thing for Ray and the C's (on the court, anyway).

Monta's terrific with the ball, but he's far more decisive than your typical Melo-esque ball stopper, and I do think he can play off the ball (just not when the guy handling the ball is a shoot-first PG like Jennings). He's got some areas of the floor where he can spot up effectively, and if he catches the ball in space and on the move it's nearly impossible to stop him getting what he wants. And Rondo is as good as it gets passing to cutters and setting guys up when they come open off screens. Every other player in the Mavs' starting lineup, Monta included, would benefit from his ability in that regard, IMO.

The lack of shooting with Rondo would be more of a concern. I don't think there's any sugar-coating that can be done there, and I don't expect him to follow in Kidd's footsteps by all of a sudden developing range. The loss of Brandan's second unit offense would also hurt. But the Mavs are in such bad shape at starting PG, and Rondo would be such a massive upgrade over Jameer in every respect other than shooting, that I don't see how it would make sense to pass up a trade for Rondo at this point unless Boston's asking price on picks was unreasonable, or the conversations with Rondo and Duffy about the prospects of Rondo sticking with the Mavs after this season weren't going well.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Just a thought on the Rondo and Ellis both needing the ball in their hands to be effective thing…Rondo had a ton of success with Pierce, and Pierce very much an on-ball kind of player. Now, there is the stuff about Ray and Rondo out there, but IMO as an outside observer that Reggie Miller type role that Ray Allen slid into as Rondo was coming into his own was the best thing for Ray and the C's (on the court, anyway).

Monta's terrific with the ball, but he's far more decisive than your typical Melo-esque ball stopper, and I do think he can play off the ball (just not when the guy handling the ball is a shoot-first PG like Jennings). He's got some areas of the floor where he can spot up effectively, and if he catches the ball in space and on the move it's nearly impossible to stop him getting what he wants. And Rondo is as good as it gets passing to cutters and setting guys up when they come open off screens. Every other player in the Mavs' starting lineup, Monta included, would benefit from his ability in that regard, IMO.

The lack of shooting with Rondo would be more of a concern. I don't think there's any sugar-coating that can be done there, and I don't expect him to follow in Kidd's footsteps by all of a sudden developing range. The loss of Brandan's second unit offense would also hurt. But the Mavs are in such bad shape at starting PG, and Rondo would be such a massive upgrade over Jameer in every respect other than shooting, that I don't see how it would make sense to pass up a trade for Rondo at this point unless Boston's asking price on picks was unreasonable, or the conversations with Rondo and Duffy about the prospects of Rondo sticking with the Mavs after this season weren't going well.

This is a great, great post. Very compelling point about difference between Rondo and Jennings.

I was pretty skeptical on this subject even before these rumors broke last night. But I'm completely on board for three primary reasons:

1. I think this is quite possibly the *only* plausible move that has a chance to improve the Mavs' defense and rebounding enough to be a contender. The other four pieces of the Mavs starting lineup are the core. And they are what they are. If you can't get Rondo or someone like him, I think you're facing the possibility of have to break up the core (likely Monta) to improve upon this team any further.

2. Tyson's level of play this season means he'd going to get another major contract this offseason. ~15Mil a year, I would expect. Once that happens, the Mavs are effectively out of cap space. Because of that, I expect the Mavs to operate as an over the cap team this season and for the foreseeable future. That means that you're back to being limited to exceptions and trades to improve this team. Acquiring a quality player with Bird rights is a huge piece of upgrading when you're over the cap.

3. I think Brandan Wright is going to be offered a larger role somewhere else next year. If that happens, you lose him for nothing and have no salary cap space to replace him. That makes moving him for a controllable asset this season very attractive.

Having said all that, perhaps the most concerning part of this trade is that it leaves the Mavs with a gaping hole at backup Center and very little assets to go get one.

I wonder if they're pondering moving Devin for a solution there.

[GhostFace]

The moment I saw the poll I was like, YES, GET RONDO AT ALL COSTS PLEASE LORD ALMIGHTY! Then I was like oh shiz, maybe I'm going overboard, nah, maybe, balls, no, yes, NO! GET HIM. So I voted. Then I saw who else voted, saw Underdog and knew I made the correct choice.

All hail UD.

[dude1394]

Yes I have to wonder why someone like rondo has now fallen to a first round pick. It screams personality issue to me.

Plus I'm kind of shocked how little concern of his inability to shoot better than a blind 3rd grader there is. I mean come on 33% FREE THROW percentage.

TBH I do not like basketball players who cannot shoot unless they are shaq.

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Yes I have to wonder why someone like rondo has now fallen to a first round pick. It screams personality issue to me.

No, its because the Celtics missed to trade him 1-2 years ago.

Rondo is now a 6 months rental, nothing more. This factor kills his entire trade value. The Celtics drafted a PG and there are rumors that Rondo is tired of the rebuild.

So no team gonna add more in a trade than an average player and an average pick if the guy is an UFA in a few months.

[EricaLubarsky]

the idea is growing on me.

We desperately need guard/perimeter defense
We desperately need someone who can bring toughness and rebounding
8.3pts, 7.5reb, 10.3ast, 1.7stl

Will he ever be even decent shooting jumpers? (25% from range). Can he even make a FT? (33.3% this year)

[dude1394]

Will we have hack a rondo out there? Will he have to be benched at the end of games? Boston doesn't care, they stink anyway.

[Dan1]

The point is: we're not a contender with our current roster, this is clear, 2nd round material at best. RC himself can't replace the holes we have. What are the odds that a better trade will show up this season? Are we gonna wait another year?

Rondo is a gamble we MUST take. Comes with risk, but we need to take that risk. Fills our worst position this year and adds defense. Plus, he is coming too cheap for the player he is (and tbh, i can't see the celtics doing this). But if they do, hell YES!!

[Dan1]

It's much much easier to find a replacement for Wright than adress our problems at PG, defense, rebounding, etc, for this season... And Rondo is a proven winner in his carrer imo... No-brainer if it doesnt involve monta, tyson, parsons of dirk ofc

[particleman]

Question: How good is Rondo's defense? I know it's a million times better than Jameer Nelson's, but how much better is it than Devin Harris's? And just in general terms, how good of a defender is he, actually? I don't watch a lot of C's games but I hear a lot of talk about how his defense is overrated..

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by particleman

Question: How good is Rondo's defense? I know it's a million times better than Jameer Nelson's, but how much better is it than Devin Harris's? And just in general terms, how good of a defender is he, actually? I don't watch a lot of C's games but I hear a lot of talk about how his defense is overrated..

Capable and opportunistic are the words that comes to my mind, though it's an opinion formed a while back that hasn't been subjected to any recent critical review. Definitely not the kind of defender that Five-o's boy Avery Bradley is. It's his ability to defend either backcourt position that I'd value more highly. That and his rebounding.

[iggymcfly]

Originally Posted by particleman

Question: How good is Rondo's defense? I know it's a million times better than Jameer Nelson's, but how much better is it than Devin Harris's? And just in general terms, how good of a defender is he, actually? I don't watch a lot of C's games but I hear a lot of talk about how his defense is overrated..

It's below league average for a starting NBA PG, but he's closer to league average than he is to Devin Harris defensively. It's a small, incremental upgrade. I read Haralabos Voulgaris on Twitter a lot. He's the most successful NBA bettor in the world, and he spends 50+ hours a week watching NBA soecifically focusing on individual defense so he can chart the value of each player defensively where statistics are a lot less reliable. He was constantly ripping Rondo's D as being vastly overrated and below league average even back when the Celtics were consistently making the playoffs and he still had young legs and was consistently putting in good effort. Rondo's been MUCH worse than that on D the last 2 years.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

It's below league average for a starting NBA PG, but he's closer to league average than he is to Devin Harris defensively. It's a small, incremental upgrade. I read Haralabos Voulgaris on Twitter a lot. He's the most successful NBA bettor in the world, and he spends 50+ hours a week watching NBA soecifically focusing on individual defense so he can chart the value of each player defensively where statistics are a lot less reliable. He was constantly ripping Rondo's D as being vastly overrated and below league average even back when the Celtics were consistently making the playoffs and he still had young legs and was consistently putting in good effort. Rondo's been MUCH worse than that on D the last 2 years.

I respect your opinion about him generally, but have a couple of issues

1) Defense is 90% effort and effort is the first thing you lose during rebuilding. Insecurity, lack of talent, tons of roster turnover, a new coach with all new plays.Could anyone in the league keep up their level of play and effort during a time of rebuilding? Add to that Rondo's unhappiness with the direction of your team and I think it's obvious that Rondo isn't playing at his peak even if he still is almost averaging a triple double for the season. Will he turn it around here? I'm not sure, but because he's been playing with less effort while the Celtics have been in transition isn't automatically a hit on him.

2) It's really hard to quantify individual defense, because defense is not 1-on-1 and fundamentals don't equal always equal results. Defense isn't just about contesting shots. It's about getting in their head, taking away their confidence, and making them nervous. It's about making players who are comfortable driving left, drive right. Some of the most effective players in the world were terrible fundamentally, but produced good results. Alvin Robertson was one of the least fundamental players in the league, who was always cheating off his man to play lanes, slapping, clapping, etc., but he was also a top-5 defender of all time. It's about the effect that the defense has rather than the fundamentals. DeShawn Stevenson was the same way. He wasn't fundamental, but he played his buns off and players never felt comfortable with him out there. As we've seen-- we can't just throw Chandler out there and immediately become a top-10 defensive team. Even when Stevenson didn't funnel guys into the team defense, he'd have them off balance and out of their comfort zone.

Even when this current Mavs team plays fundamental defense, we aren't in their heads. Opposing teams are comfortable and confident even when we are contesting shots and funneling to Tyson.

I'm not saying that Rondo is top-10, but like Tyson Chandler, he's also been voted to both NBA defensive first and second teams (2 and 2, vs. Chandler's 1 and 2). He can't hurt as a replacement for Nelson for both his defense and rebounding. We need someone who can make players upset. We need players who can disrupt a team. We need a guy who can rebound (he's currently #1 among PGs in all rebounding stats, including advanced rebounding stats.) Most of all, we need a crazy bastard like Stevenson again.

[GermanStandard]

I'll leave this here

[Dtownsfinest]

Rondo averages almost a triple double. This is a chance to get Jason Kidd in his prime except he lacks the size and 3 point shooting that Kidd had later in his career. Its a no brainer IMO. If all they want is Brandon Wright and a few other guys? This is the prime example of a low risk high reward type of deal. IMO, Brandon Wright doesn't have a future in Dallas anyway. I like the progress he's made but the guy has probably played himself into a big contract that I don't think Dallas will want to play especially to a backup. As long as Chandler and Dirk are healthy he'll never rack up much minutes.

This team lacks perimeter defense and shooting and while Rondo can't contribute much to the lack of shooting he can contribute to making it easier for others to score.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Rondo averages almost a triple double. This is a chance to get Jason Kidd in his prime except he lacks the size and 3 point shooting that Kidd had later in his career. Its a no brainer IMO. If all they want is Brandon Wright and a few other guys? This is the prime example of a low risk high reward type of deal. IMO, Brandon Wright doesn't have a future in Dallas anyway. I like the progress he's made but the guy has probably played himself into a big contract that I don't think Dallas will want to play especially to a backup. As long as Chandler and Dirk are healthy he'll never rack up much minutes.

This team lacks perimeter defense and shooting and while Rondo can't contribute much to the lack of shooting he can contribute to making it easier for others to score.

Man this seems like a real slap in the face of jkiddo. Rondo is a young jason kidd? Man im not seeing it, but i have to admit a lack of knowledge on rondo.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Man this seems like a real slap in the face of jkiddo. Rondo is a young jason kidd? Man im not seeing it, but i have to admit a lack of knowledge on rondo.

If anything, Rondo is a poor-mans Alvin Robertson minus ever having a quadruple double (20pts, 11reb, 10ast, 10stl). He's small, frenetic, and passes better than he shoots. No leadership but skyhigh energy.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

If anything, Rondo is a poor-mans Alvin Robertson minus ever having a quadruple double (20pts, 11reb, 10ast, 10stl). He's small, frenetic, and passes better than he shoots. No leadership but skyhigh energy.

I certainly wouldn't call Rondo "small" - sure, he's only 6'1", but he has a ridiculous 6'9" wingspan... His length, coupled with his energy, is why he's such a good rebounder/defender.

[tap2390]

I'd like to counter the notion that Rondo isn't that good of a defender/ rebounder.

Ummm, yes he is. Someone pointed out players average a PER of 18.0 against him vs. the league-wide average of 15.0. First off, everyone and their mothers know that PER is skewed in favor of those who contribute in limited minutes (cough cough Wright cough). A more accurate measure is DPRM which takes into account points allowed per 100 possessions. Rondo is 4th in the league. http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rp...RPM/position/1

Rondo also leads the Celtics in defensive +/-, not taking into account Gerald Wallace who plays 8 mpg. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2015.html

Rondo is also 1st among PG's in defensive rebound % & 6th in offensive rebound %. To top it off he also leads the league is assist ratio (% of possessions that result in an assists), and assists.

On offense, Rondo's struggles seem to be overstated. He isn't shooting well but he's running a relatively efficient offense considering their roster. The Celtics are 6th in PPG, tied for 11th/12th in FG% at .461 (the immediate 3 squads ahead of them are at .462). They struggle making and defending 3s and turning the ball over.