Iverson Traded to Detroit - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

dirno2000 · 11-03-2008, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Still, the only way your argument here makes sense is if we presuppose that Denver would do something completely illogical. If they didn't feel that the drop-off at SG was bigger than the drop-off at PG, they wouldn't have moved Iverson to SG. There'd be absolutely no reason to do it.

It could also be that they thought Iverson at PG was a negative for the team.

jthig32 · 11-03-2008, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

No need to be condescending. I've read the same stuff as you, and I'm well aware that they are making this trade partly in an effort to get Smith more PT.

Still, the only way your argument here makes sense is if we presuppose that Denver would do something completely illogical. If they didn't feel that the drop-off at SG was bigger than the drop-off at PG, they wouldn't have moved Iverson to SG. There'd be absolutely no reason to do it. There's no way Anthony Carter is a better option at PG than AI straight up, so why not make AI the starter at the 1 and Smith can start at the 2?

It's only illogical because you're working off your belief that Iverson is a positive at PG. Again, they didn't do it for Carter. Carter was out a lot of last season and they started stinking Steven Blake starting for a while.

Clearly they felt that Player X + Iverson at SG was better than Iverson at PG and Smith at SG. Perhaps you could argue that that says more about Smith than Iverson, but I disagree, given how poor their options at PG have been.

Oh, and I didn't intend for that to be condescending at all. Tone and such...sorry. Not intentional.

jthig32 · 11-03-2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

The reason there doesn't seem to be a point in discussing it, is because you have already made your stance on AI very clear. You think he is a vastly overrated player who throws up stats making him valuable in fantasy but that do not equate to on the floor quality. I simply disagree.

I think he is one of the most consistently explosive offensive basketball players we seen in the past 30 years. He does play point guard...AND he does play shooting guard (Certainly his sensational scoring ability puts him in the realm of the best shooting guards, but his ability to create buckets for teammates is that of a high end pg). Call his position what you will, it seems to be that when I watch him play, he is functioning as a point guard most of the time. Billups is great and has been incredibly fortunate in Detroit. AI is first ballot hall of fame.

For the record, I wouldn't say I think he is "vastly" overrated. Just that his on court impact does not meet the look of his numbers. He's kind of the antithesis of Dirk. Dirk's incredible offensive ability is underrated because of his incredible efficiency, and I think AI's is a bit overrated because of his lack of efficiency.

As to the HOF comment....I dunno. Are you really that much better off with AI on your team over the last 7 years than you are with Vince Carter? You're a little better off, for sure, but unless you think Carter is a borderline HOF, I'm not sure you can call AI a first ballot guy.

alby · 11-03-2008, 05:57 PM

Advantage, Nuggets: Many reasons to like deal for Denver

By John Hollinger
ESPN.com
(Archive)

Carmelo Anthony will enjoy having point guard Chauncey Billups after the A.I.-Melo experiment failed.
Sometimes, even though a deal makes sense for both teams, one side comes away the unquestionable winner.

Detroit had its reasons for making Monday's trade of Chauncey Billups and Antonio McDyess for Allen Iverson, and those reasons make sense: As Chad Ford explains, the deal clears room for Rodney Stuckey to play at the point, and it paves the way for the Pistons to have some serious cap space in the summer when Iverson and Rasheed Wallace come off the books. That's nothing to sneeze at.
That said, I can't believe how good this trade is for the Denver Nuggets. On almost every level, it accomplishes the main objectives this team had for both the present and the future.

I am having a hard time finding a single drawback to this deal from Denver's perspective. About the only one I can think of is that the Nuggets might play at a slower pace with Billups at the helm, and that might take away a bit from the home-court advantage they enjoy in Denver's mile-high air. That's the best I can come up with.

Meanwhile, the advantages pile up like snowdrifts on Pike's Peak. To wit:

1. Denver got the better player.
Iverson is a legend, and Billups isn't … but who would you rather have going forward?

During the past two seasons, Billups has logged a player efficiency rating of 21.38 and 23.48, compared with 19.61 and 21.06 for Iverson. Throw in that Billups is a much better defensive player, has a superior durability track record and is a year younger, and there's no doubt which player you'd rather have going forward -- especially because Billups' savvy floor game and long-range shooting are likely to age much better than Iverson's speed-based approach.

2. The trade better configures the Nuggets' talent.
An Iverson-Billups swap makes a ton of sense from Denver's perspective because of how the rest of the roster shapes up.

The Nuggets had two outstanding shooting guards (Iverson and J.R. Smith) and zero outstanding point guards; by swapping Iverson for Billups, they now have one of each. Smith should start at the 2 or see extended minutes off the bench at that spot, while Billups will hold down the fort at the point; Anthony Carter, meanwhile, can revert to the reserve guard role that better aligns with his skills.
As a side benefit, this also should open up some extra minutes for Linas Kleiza, who was getting squeezed with Carmelo Anthony, Iverson and Smith already available on the wings.

3. It makes room for Melo.
The biggest winner from this whole trade may be Anthony. Suddenly, he has room to operate from his midpost area because Smith and Billups, who are deadly shooters, loom on the outside and can punish double-teams. And suddenly, he'll have the ball there a lot more and a lot earlier in the clock, because Iverson isn't sucking up possessions and shot-clock time on the perimeter.

I've always believed that Denver needed another sniper in the backcourt to make its system work. (In fact, that's one reason the Nuggies inked Chucky Atkins in July 2007.) There was too much congestion for Anthony and Iverson to thrive. In Billups, they unquestionably have their sniper.

4. It shores up the frontcourt.
Nothing says "cross your fingers" like counting on Nene and Kenyon Martin to stay healthy. Now the Nuggets have a reasonable fallback position in McDyess, who is still a productive player and can play both frontcourt positions.

Even if Nene and Martin can miraculously get through the year without a scratch, Denver still benefits off the bench, especially because Nene's high foul rate is likely to put him on the pine early on many nights.

5. It helps with the fans.
Iverson might have been a huge gate attraction on the road, but in Denver, the locals had grown increasingly jaded. Swapping him for two high-character guys with local roots (Billups is from Denver, and McDyess had his best seasons there) is bound to create some good karma with the locals, something that was needed after local faves Marcus Camby and Eduardo Najera bid the Rockies adieu this past summer.
Need we go on?

Whether or not the Iverson era in Denver went as planned, the Nuggets managed to turn him into an instant restoration of the team's hopes. And that's why, even if Detroit didn't lose the trade, Denver won it.

John Hollinger writes for ESPN.com. To e-mail him, click here.

sike · 11-03-2008, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

For the record, I wouldn't say I think he is "vastly" overrated.

You may want to rethink this statement...because I bet you most basketball minds you and I respect would say he is a sure fire first ballot guy. If your opinion of him is correct, that would make him "vastly overrated", no?

oh, and I think AI and Dirk will both probably go down as amazing players without rings...whereas Billups is a good player who got his.

BGMaverick9 · 11-03-2008, 06:03 PM

This was pretty surprising when I read it but it makes sense. Detroit is ready for a change of pace and it seemed like Denver was a partner they wanted to work with for a while.

Detroit has some younger guys that could potentially be big time players, the problem was they needed to get a little less thin in depth to help get those minutes. I'm not sure if this necessarily helps that process but I don't think it totally hurts. If they put Stuckey at PG and let AI play the 2, that might fix some issues.

That cap release for Detroit will be very nice though. Maybe they feel they are near the end of their current run and have players in waiting and the extra cap space can bring in a big player to help seal their future up.

3. It makes room for Melo.

uh, you lost me there...lol. I'm not that big of a fan for Melo.

Kidd Karma · 11-03-2008, 06:03 PM

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.s..._complete.html

Looked like McDyess was not happy with the trade. But there were not quotes. Seems there now will be a buyout. He has this year and next year left on his deal. He will then resign with Detroit, adhering to NBA rules.

But I still think Denver has improved with the deal. Billups is a proven distributor, I think JR Smith will benefit the most.

jthig32 · 11-03-2008, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

You may want to rethink this statement...because I bet you most basketball minds you and I respect would say he is a sure fire first ballot guy. If your opinion of him is correct, that would make him "vastly overrated", no?

oh, and I think AI and Dirk will both probably go down as amazing players without rings...whereas Billups is a good player who got his.

I would say winning multiple scoring titles puts you on the fast track for the hall of fame, regardless of how many shots you took to get them.

He's been a great player in his career, no doubt about it. But I think he's a tad overrated, and I think the idea that Billups is a better player now and going forward is far from absurd. And Hollinger agrees with me, for whatever that's worth.

BGMaverick9 · 11-03-2008, 06:07 PM

That seems to help Detroit even more...let McDyess stay fresh and come back after a month or so.

sike · 11-03-2008, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

3. It makes room for Melo.[/B]

uh, you lost me there...lol. I'm not that big of a fan for Melo.

AI took a ton of shots...now more are going Melo's way...

BGMaverick9 · 11-03-2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

AI took a ton of shots...now more are going Melo's way...

I don't think that's good because he has a case of bonehead shot selection, like someone here who has had that problem.

I think as alby mentioned in the article, this actually frees up more for JR Smith. He's got the range and aggression, so I think he goes up a notch or two.

LonghornDub · 11-03-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

It's only illogical because you're working off your belief that Iverson is a positive at PG. Again, they didn't do it for Carter. Carter was out a lot of last season and they started stinking Steven Blake starting for a while.

Clearly they felt that Player X + Iverson at SG was better than Iverson at PG and Smith at SG. Perhaps you could argue that that says more about Smith than Iverson, but I disagree, given how poor their options at PG have been.

Oh, and I didn't intend for that to be condescending at all. Tone and such...sorry. Not intentional.

That's fair enough. I'm just still not sure how it adds up that AI could be a net negative at any position. I understand that he certainly has some real flaws to his game, and hell, to some extent I even agree with your assessment that he's more of a "fantasy star" than a star on the court, but I just can't see the guy as ever being a negative.

BGMaverick9 · 11-03-2008, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

That's fair enough. I'm just still not sure how it adds up that AI could be a net negative at any position. I understand that he certainly has some real flaws to his game, and hell, to some extent I even agree with your assessment that he's more of a "fantasy star" than a star on the court, but I just can't see the guy as ever being a negative.

I agree with the fact that any actual or perceived negatives are trumped by his positives.

Sometimes you have problems or question player's heart, you'll never have to question that with him. He gives you everything he's got when he is out there on the court. I don't really see him as a "leader" and all of that but when it comes to talent, I think if the price is right...you'd rather have him than pass on him.

sike · 11-03-2008, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

And Hollinger agrees with me, for whatever that's worth.

actually, he agrees with us both (calling AI a Legend). I think he did that on purpose. Just to settle this furious fight between us down.

particleman · 11-03-2008, 06:57 PM

As far as "Who is the better PG?" is concerned... I definitely think Billups is the better PG for this Denver team. With scorers like Anthony and Smith out there they just can't afford for Iverson to dribble around for 16 seconds and then distribute the ball. On the other hand, I don't understand paying Billups all that money for the next 4 seasons or whatever it is, and I definitely don't understand buying out McDyess. Why not force him to either play or retire?

I'm not sold on Iverson being a good fit for Detroit either, but you gotta like this as a salary dump. They're going to have $25+ million this offseason, with that young core. Smart move by Dumars.

And all in all I don't see it affecting Dallas much. This might make Denver better, but I can't imagine they'll be enough better that they become a serious contender.

Kidd Karma · 11-03-2008, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

That seems to help Detroit even more...let McDyess stay fresh and come back after a month or so.

I'm sure there was an under the table agreement. Carmelo was quoted as saying that he heard not to expect McDyess....but of course Chapman is selling it off, he'll be here, he's a professional, we were teammates. Don't think you trust your 4th big man role to Kwame Brown without a backup plan. Amir Johnson is a nice piece, but he's not a starter, McDyess was gong to see a lot of minutes behind him, while Maxiell got some burn behind Wallace. Odds are McDyess will be in a Piston uniform by Christmas with rested legs. This trade also sets them up to add a couple of solid bigs after Wallace and AI walks. I'm sure Stuckey will become the starting PG next year.

seagullstalker35 · 11-03-2008, 07:01 PM

here is the deal with iverson vs billups:

in a vacuum, iverson is a better player hands down no contest. but in the context of a team give me billups every day of the week. iverson is NOT a point guard, i dont care how many assists he gets. He does not run an offense like a point guard. when iverson plays point the offense gets bogged down and you end up with everyone standing around while iverson creates. the assists he gets are rarely in the flow of the offense. the difference between scoring point guards like billups, parker, harris and iverson is that those guys points can come within the flow of the offense without taking away from the other guys. iverson's points come when he isolates at the top of the key while everyone else stands around.

i think that iverson is one of the greatest individual players in nba history, first ballot hall of famer for sure. but he is not someone you can build a championship team around, and to be fair neither is billups. the problem with iverson is that he needs the ball to be effective, and in doing so he renders the rest of the team ineffective. you put a point guard on the floor with him and iverson isn't quite as good because he is better with the ball in his hands so he can run iso plays and create offense. you move iverson to the point and everything bogs down. no matter what you do with him the offense doesnt run as smoothly as it should.

basketballgirl25 · 11-03-2008, 07:05 PM

I don't think this trade with make Denver that much better that they will be a serious contender, but if it does make them a contender in the west cool

Tokey41 · 11-03-2008, 08:22 PM

I'd say that's pretty good value for AI, big risk for Detroit though... a 33 year old guard who relies on his speed to score and can't defend? They better hope a change of scenery is rejuvenating. On the plus side the season is young so they will have time to mesh. I still see a conference final exit at the most, they are going to need more.

Windmill360 · 11-03-2008, 09:16 PM

edit.

EricaLubarsky · 11-03-2008, 09:48 PM

Too bad Denver gave away Camby-- they could have been darn competitive.

rabbitproof · 11-03-2008, 11:42 PM

Has this been spoken for??

link: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...yhoo&type=lgns

----

Pistons get Iverson now, LeBron later?

By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports 5 hours, 33 minutes ago

Joe Dumars had the chance to consider Dallas’ Jason Kidd and his expiring contract over the summer, a league executive said Monday, but the Detroit Pistons president had bigger, bolder ideas. Allen Iverson still gives the Pistons a puncher’s chance in the Eastern Conference this season, but this trade isn’t about him. It isn’t about Chauncey Billups.

---

Man, if we could've gotten say Billups and Dice, that'd be nice but imagine if it had been say Kidd/Stack/Bass for Billups/Prince or Billups/Hamilton...

Anyways, someone (league executive/we like our team) is lying out of their ass.

jthig32 · 11-03-2008, 11:47 PM

Oh I wouldn't doubt for a second that the Mavs offered Kidd for Bllups over the summer. Wouldn't you?

jthig32 · 11-03-2008, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Too bad Denver gave away Camby-- they could have been darn competitive.

Yeah that's my biggset problem with this trade. If they still have Camby they are a legitimate contender after this trade, imo.

How frustrating for Denver fans.

rabbitproof · 11-04-2008, 12:01 AM

I don't doubt it. I wouldn't even be surprised if Josh was offered in some sort of combo deal (featuring Prince). I just wonder what the hold up might've been.

Most likely, JKidd is not what they were looking for but is AI? I also wonder how heavily we pursued it.

jthig32 · 11-04-2008, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

I don't doubt it. I wouldn't even be surprised if Josh was offered in some sort of combo deal (featuring Prince). I just wonder what the hold up might've been.

Most likely, JKidd is not what they were looking for but is AI? I also wonder how heavily we pursued it.

I would say they figured AI's style is more suited to at the very least giving the illusion that they are not completely giving up on this season in order to get the cap space. That would be my theory.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-04-2008, 03:57 AM

Pretty solid move for both teams. I've actually thought for years that Detroit would be a really good fit for AI. Ball-dominating guards like AI absolutely have to be surrounded by great defensive teams to be successful. He and Melo we're never going to win anything together, and I think everyone knew that. Denver needed defense badly, and Chauncey's arguably the best defensive PG in the league, as well as someone who's not going to have to take the ball out of Carmelo's hands to be effective. If it doesn't work out for Detroit, they've got plenty of flexibility when AI's and Sheed's contracts are up. Dumars is one hell of a GM.

MavsX · 11-04-2008, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.s..._complete.html

Looked like McDyess was not happy with the trade. But there were not quotes. Seems there now will be a buyout. He has this year and next year left on his deal. He will then resign with Detroit, adhering to NBA rules.

But I still think Denver has improved with the deal. Billups is a proven distributor, I think JR Smith will benefit the most.

screaming a smith is reporting that McDyess will return to the pistons once the nuggets buy out his contract. But isn't that the same thing stackhouse did/said during the kidd deal?

doesn't he have to wait 30 days, then any team will sign him?, if he says he is going back to detroit, didn't the NBA block that or say no more of that under the table stuff since the kidd trade?

basketballgirl25 · 11-04-2008, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsX

screaming a smith is reporting that McDyess will return to the pistons once the nuggets buy out his contract. But isn't that the same thing stackhouse did/said during the kidd deal?

doesn't he have to wait 30 days, then any team will sign him?, if he says he is going back to detroit, didn't the NBA block that or say no more of that under the table stuff since the kidd trade?

did McDyess say out loud or was he qouted for saying he would go back to the pistons? Because I thought stackhouse came out and said he was going to go back to the mavericks in 30 days. I don't know if that matters or not

Underdog · 11-04-2008, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsX

screaming a smith is reporting that McDyess will return to the pistons once the nuggets buy out his contract. But isn't that the same thing stackhouse did/said during the kidd deal?

doesn't he have to wait 30 days, then any team will sign him?, if he says he is going back to detroit, didn't the NBA block that or say no more of that under the table stuff since the kidd trade?

McDyess doesn't work for Cuban, so the rules probably don't apply...

jthig32 · 11-04-2008, 09:23 AM

Just because someone reports that he's returning doesn't mean it's a violation. Stack's mistake was actually saying, on the record, that he wasn't going anywhere.

Yes, McDyess will have to wait thirty days after being cut before he can sign with the Pistons.

MavsX · 11-04-2008, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Just because someone reports that he's returning doesn't mean it's a violation. Stack's mistake was actually saying, on the record, that he wasn't going anywhere.

Yes, McDyess will have to wait thirty days after being cut before he can sign with the Pistons.

dammit. oh well. you are so wise.