Kevin Martin

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by stuportremens

This is getting ridiculous. The last time he was traded, it was for Carl Landry. At this rate, soon somebody will argue that it takes at least Dirk and Roddy because Dirk alone won't do it.

The Kings though got a very cheap Landry, and because of Mcgrady's expiring deal and the cash they saved a ton of money

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by mavs777

The Kings though got a very cheap Landry, and because of Mcgrady's expiring deal and the cash they saved a ton of money

A cheap and "hot Carl" Landry. -- Mark Followill.

[rabbitproof]

Originally Posted by tcat075

Well, it depends on what you mean by hot air. I'm sure there is interest on both sides. I don't think there will be anything close to a compromise between the two sides, though. That's where Fish gets it wrong. He reports that Kevin Martin is available, he reports that Haywood is desired by Houston, and somehow, 2+2=27. Now we have Beaubois/Haywood for Martin rumors floating around. In actuality, its just interest from two teams for two players on the other team, which no real deal even being close to being completed. This isn't something Fish is completely pulling out of his ass, but not really true either.

2+2=27 is a good way to sum it up. I laughed at that because it reminds me of a lot of rumormongering out there.

I am leaning more towards skepticism, which is probably the boring way to think about things, but interest in each other's players is probably going to atleast lead to some meaningful conversations between the FOs.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by FreshJive

http://twitter.com/TheRocketGuy

The Rockets DID NOT offer Martin. They were interested in Gortat, and offered several scenarios, but never offered Martin.

It's Bill Ingram.....

[ComeOnNow]

Originally Posted by jthig32

It's Bill Ingram.....

KBerg_CBS Ken Berger
Source correcting me: #Rockets didn't offer Kevin Martin for Gortat. They specifically wouldn't offer him.

Not just Ingram... If the Rockets wouldn't offer Martin for a younger center who is hungry for minutes and is better at freethrows, with a better contract, I have my doubts that they will take Haywood. Do the Rockets have interest in Haywood? Probably. Do the Mavs covet Martin? Very possible. But that doesn't mean that the Rockets are willing to trade one for the other.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by ComeOnNow

KBerg_CBS Ken Berger
Source correcting me: #Rockets didn't offer Kevin Martin for Gortat. They specifically wouldn't offer him.

Not just Ingram... If the Rockets wouldn't offer Martin for a younger center who is hungry for minutes and is better at freethrows, with a better contract, I have my doubts that they will take Haywood. Do the Rockets have interest in Haywood? Probably. Do the Mavs covet Martin? Very possible. But that doesn't mean that the Rockets are willing to trade one for the other.

Its not just Haywood, it'd be Haywood and Beaubois. No way they do it straight up for Haywood.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by tcat075

Its not just Haywood, it'd be Haywood and Beaubois. No way they do it straight up for Haywood.

I'm not really sure where the Beaubois inclusion is coming from other than speculative stuff. I find it very hard to believe that Roddy will be included.

If something ever materializes, I think Houston would say they want Haywood and then Dallas will say ok, we want Martin. It's the art of a deal, you throw your first option of the best-case deal you'd want to make (basically a silly offer just hoping they'll bite) and then you talk it out to a deal you can settle with.

[MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs]

Originally Posted by tcat075

Its not just Haywood, it'd be Haywood and Beaubois. No way they do it straight up for Haywood.

That's just like...your opinion man. Many including DLord from Dallasbasketball feel that since decent 7 footers are so hard to find The Rockets would have to settle for Stevenson/Haywood or nothing. And I feel the same way and if they dont accept that then there's no deal. We're not in a position of desperation here. If anyone is it's the Rockets.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I'm not really sure where the Beaubois inclusion is coming from other than speculative stuff. I find it very hard to believe that Roddy will be included.

If something ever materializes, I think Houston would say they want Haywood and then Dallas will say ok, we want Martin. It's the art of a deal, you throw your first option of the best-case deal you'd want to make (basically a silly offer just hoping they'll bite) and then you talk it out to a deal you can settle with.

I believe Roddy is just speculation, but I can't see any way of Martin coming here without him. Maybe Butler and his expiring goes, but its not like Martin has a bad contract...two years left at 15 million, I believe I read somewhere. I know that you're right, that Dallas is probably just seeing if they can get Houston to panic especially now that another center is off the table in Gortat, but I just don't think they will be able to settle on a deal (unless Dallas decides to send Roddy).

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

That's just like...your opinion man. Many including DLord from Dallasbasketball feel that since decent 7 footers are so hard to find The Rockets would have to settle for Stevenson/Haywood or nothing. And I feel the same way and if they dont accept that then there's no deal. We're not in a position of desperation here. If anyone is it's the Rockets.

Oh, of course; I'm not saying that we must get Kevin Martin above all else. All I'm saying is that if the FO did want him, they'd have to give up Beaubois. My opinion is that Houston would have to stupid to give up Martin for Haywood only.

[FreshJive]

Originally Posted by ComeOnNow

KBerg_CBS Ken Berger
Source correcting me: #Rockets didn't offer Kevin Martin for Gortat. They specifically wouldn't offer him.

Not just Ingram... If the Rockets wouldn't offer Martin for a younger center who is hungry for minutes and is better at freethrows, with a better contract, I have my doubts that they will take Haywood. Do the Rockets have interest in Haywood? Probably. Do the Mavs covet Martin? Very possible. But that doesn't mean that the Rockets are willing to trade one for the other.

Maybe Ken berger's source is Bill Ingram, and it's all nonsense.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by tcat075

Its not just Haywood, it'd be Haywood and Beaubois. No way they do it straight up for Haywood.

The salaries still don't match for Haywood/Roddy - it would have to be something like Haywood/Stevenson, then they could add Roddy to the deal as sweetener (but Houston would also have to offer a low-dollar/high-upside guy to even hold the Mavs' interest...)

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Underdog

The salaries still don't match for Haywood/Roddy - it would have to be something like Haywood/Stevenson, then they could add Roddy to the deal as sweetener (but Houston would also have to offer a low-dollar/high-upside guy to even hold the Mavs' interest...)

Or you could do Haywood/Roddy/random cap filler, like Novak or Cardinal.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Or you could do Haywood/Roddy/random cap filler, like Novak or Cardinal.

hELL nO yOU dONT tRADE nOVAK oR cARDINAL yOU cRAZY mAN!

[sike]

Originally Posted by Underdog

hELL nO yOU dONT tRADE nOVAK oR cARDINAL yOU cRAZY mAN!

You can't control what the thig say, man....he crazy.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Or you could do Haywood/Roddy/random cap filler, like Novak or Cardinal.

Novakane FTW

[mavs777]

I wonder if we could get Patterson or Hill back

[mavs777]

They might insist on us taking a moderately bad Miller contract back
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=27u7ot4

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by mavs777

They might insist on us taking a moderately bad Miller contract back
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=27u7ot4

Like I said before - we're not so hard-up for Martin that we'll let them dictate the terms.

Houston can't insist a damn thing because we hold all the cards...

[tcat075]

Yeah, exactly UD. No move must be made, but there are many moves that could be made. The Mavericks are right on top of things...try to get one of those trades on the cheap, and don't give in if the team starts hardballing you.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Like I said before - we're not so hard-up for Martin that we'll let them dictate the terms.

Houston can't insist a damn thing because we hold all the cards...

Actually, seeing as they have the best (proven) player, I think Houston holds their fair share of card.

For the record, I wouldn't object to Miller coming to Dallas. That is, I do sort of object to Miller if you take my meaning, but as a backup 4/5 I think the Mavs could find some use for him.

[dude1394]

Miller would seem to be the big body that the mavs 5's do not have is 'wood moves. That is a slight bunch.

[wilmtalk]

Originally Posted by tcat075

-----------------------------------------------------------------------I also hate losing Roddy, because he's one of those few explosive penetrators. Martin drives and draws fouls, but he's not ridiculously explosive like Beaubois is. 80% of his shots are still jumpers (I'd give you Roddy's % but 82games is acting odd right now). Roddy, on the other hand, can basically get into the lane every possession if he wants. Even when he doesn't take shots, the penetration and subsequent collapse of the defense opens up open jump shots for our primarily jump shooting team. That's why Roddy is such a great fit for this team, and I don't think Martin is the same sort of player at all. That right there is why I'd be really, really hesistant to trade away Roddy right now, no matter who we were trading him for.

I am in general agreement with your entire post but this last part clearly articulates an important point about trades that most posters on this trade board always seem to forget. They always seem to forget or never recognize that what is the most important factor in trades is need combined with team chemistry. I think the problems that the Heat have experienced is one example of talent being hindered by the lack of chemistry. Roddy is an important fit for the offense just as Chandler was for the defense. TC would not have the same impact on most other teams. There were some who had the ability to recognized this long before it was played out on the court. In the same respect I don't think a lot of posters recognize why Roddy's unique talents are as potentially important to this team since they are not refected by numbers they can actually see on paper. They are entirely too caught up in stats which works for fantasy leagues but not reality.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Actually, seeing as they have the best (proven) player, I think Houston holds their fair share of card.

For the record, I wouldn't object to Miller coming to Dallas. That is, I do sort of object to Miller if you take my meaning, but as a backup 4/5 I think the Mavs could find some use for him.

You definitely have a point, but Houston has more need of Haywood than we have of Martin (especially with Gortat off the market), so the "better overall player" doesn't have as much leverage as it usually would.

Not that I'm against Miller either - I'm mostly against the word "insist". He'd definitely be a better insurance policy behind Chandler than Mahinmi, and could be useful behind Dirk since Marion would play exclusively at the 3 if Butler is shipped.

[mac222b]

don't see any way the Rockets do this deal if it doesnt include Roddy.
and in that case the Mavs are better off keeping Roddy and Haywood.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by Underdog

You definitely have a point, but Houston has more need of Haywood than we have of Martin (especially with Gortat off the market), so the "better overall player" doesn't have as much leverage as it usually would.

Not that I'm against Miller either - I'm mostly against the word "insist". He'd definitely be a better insurance policy behind Chandler than Mahinmi, and could be useful behind Dirk since Marion would play exclusively at the 3 if Butler is shipped.

I haven't really had a good chance to assess the situation around the league, but I'm guessing Haywood isn't the only real center on the market but based on perception...he's probably the most likely one that could be available.

I know going up against Dirk is a bad frame of reference but Miller can't hang outside of 5-8 feet from the basket on defense...from what I remember, that lateral movement is scary bad.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by wilmtalk

I am in general agreement with your entire post but this last part clearly articulates an important point about trades that most posters on this trade board always seem to forget. They always seem to forget or never recognize that what is the most important factor in trades is need combined with team chemistry. I think the problems that the Heat have experienced is one example of talent being hindered by the lack of chemistry. Roddy is an important fit for the offense just as Chandler was for the defense. TC would not have the same impact on most other teams. There were some who had the ability to recognized this long before it was played out on the court. In the same respect I don't think a lot of posters recognize why Roddy's unique talents are as potentially important to this team since they are not refected by numbers they can actually see on paper. They are entirely too caught up in stats which works for fantasy leagues but not reality.

That's not exactly what I was saying. I don't think Roddy is an "important fit for the offense". I don't think I know what Roddy is. All I'm saying is that he has a talent of athleticism and burst that few others in this league have, and it will not be easy to replace if the Mavericks choose to trade him away. That doesn't mean he's better than Carmelo or Kevin Martin or even Caron Butler, just like Shawn Bradley and Zydrunas Ilgauskas weren't the best centers just because no one else is as tall as them, but he is rather unique, so the Mavericks better be very, very sure of any deal they choose to put him in.

[NoTnERb]

would this be plausible?
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=2at2qjf

they get Haywood and they can also have DoJo who has potential. I'm just not really into the idea of letting go of roddy.

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Like I said before - we're not so hard-up for Martin that we'll let them dictate the terms.

Houston can't insist a damn thing because we hold all the cards...

why? Its not like we would be the only team wanting Martin its a 50/50 street

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by mavs777

why? Its not like we would be the only team wanting Martin its a 50/50 street

But we don't NEED him - dumping a fraction of our roster to acquire Martin & spare parts doesn't make any sense for a team that's 21-5...

[dude1394]

Thinking about it, Miller must be pretty dang bad for them to look at Martin for Haywood...I mean crap...the dude can't even be a stopgap??

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Eh, I don't really see Houston giving up their best player for Haywood. I mean, where would that leave them roster wise? I almost guarantee they'd ask for Butler or Roddy as well and IMO that is too much to give up....at least at this point or anytime soon.

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by Underdog

But we don't NEED him - dumping a fraction of our roster to acquire Martin & spare parts doesn't make any sense for a team that's 21-5...

and they don't need to trade him to us, and while this team is 21-5 and a good team i still don't think we are title contenders without another move

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Thinking about it, Miller must be pretty dang bad for them to look at Martin for Haywood...I mean crap...the dude can't even be a stopgap??

what makes you believe they are looking at martin for just haywood?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Thinking about it, Miller must be pretty dang bad for them to look at Martin for Haywood...I mean crap...the dude can't even be a stopgap??

I don't think anyone here really thinks Houston would give him up for just Haywood, or for Haywood and other non-assets.

They would certainly be looking for Roddy, and even that might not be enough.

But yes, to your original point, Miller is pretty horrible nowadays.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Yeah Brad Miller makes Jordan Hill look like an all-star.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by mavs777

and they don't need to trade him to us, and while this team is 21-5 and a good team i still don't think we are title contenders without another move

Of course they don't need to trade Martin to us... But they do need a center, and we just happen to be shopping one who's 7-feet tall and could perform well as a starter in their system. Plus, I bet more teams are interested in Haywood than Martin, considering position/price/availability - there will definitely be other suitors if Houston tries to hardball us...

[dash]

Originally Posted by ComeOnNow

KBerg_CBS Ken Berger
Source correcting me: #Rockets didn't offer Kevin Martin for Gortat. They specifically wouldn't offer him.

Not just Ingram... If the Rockets wouldn't offer Martin for a younger center who is hungry for minutes and is better at freethrows, with a better contract, I have my doubts that they will take Haywood. Do the Rockets have interest in Haywood? Probably. Do the Mavs covet Martin? Very possible. But that doesn't mean that the Rockets are willing to trade one for the other.

Yep, Martin is actually the very last player the Rockets would want to move. Martin is in the top 8 in points per game in the NBA (he only plays 30 minutes and 2nd in ppg in the 48 minutes stat), I highly doubt they trade someone of his ability for a guy like Haywood. My guess is the Rockets view Martin as the ideal sidekick and want to keep him around if they ever do acquire a star via trade or draft. If you read the thread on this 'rumor' at the Rockets board, just about everyone laughed at it.

Gortat is the slightly better player than Haywood and the Rockets never offered Martin in ANY trade scenario. Beaubois is a very nice young player but the Rockets already have Aaron Brooks, Kyle Lowry, Chase Budinger, Courtney Lee, Martin and also the recently acquired Terrence Williams that play the 2 backcourt positions. No room at all for Beaubois as he would likely be buried at the end of the bench.

[wilmtalk]

Originally Posted by tcat075

That's not exactly what I was saying. I don't think Roddy is an "important fit for the offense". I don't think I know what Roddy is. All I'm saying is that he has a talent of athleticism and burst that few others in this league have, and it will not be easy to replace if the Mavericks choose to trade him away. That doesn't mean he's better than Carmelo or Kevin Martin or even Caron Butler, just like Shawn Bradley and Zydrunas Ilgauskas weren't the best centers just because no one else is as tall as them, but he is rather unique, so the Mavericks better be very, very sure of any deal they choose to put him in.

Notice I said potential? I was in my post refering to the point you make about the availability of players like him in the league. He is the type of player who's potential impact would be difficult to replace. I was at first not really happy when the Mavs resigned Kidd to a 3 year contract. When they drafted Roddy my oppinion changed because with him on the floor Kidds shortcomings would be compensated for by a player with Roddys skills both on offense and defense. With the acquision of TC Kidds defensive libilities are less of a handicap because Chandler is the second line of defense for the quick guards that Kidd has trouble defending.

Roddy in essense is quick enough to defend the quick guards while also being able to break down the defense off the dribble which Kidd can no longer do. Why do you think JJB gets all his time on the floor. He brings those qualities which are lacking in the other guards on this team. Kidd is still a major asset to this team as long as he is teamed with the right players.

They main point of my post was that some of the players that other posters seem to be desperate to acquire might not really fit on this team. The two's they are promoting are generally defensive libilities. Yes Chandler makes up for a lot of that but he can't be on the floor all the time and is effective primarily in the zone. Remember why the team plays the zone-- To cover for the weak man to man defense of the prerimiter players. Do we really need another ball dominant offensive player who will hurt us on defense? Also remember the initial problem that Butler had fitting into the offense. How long would it take another ball dominant player to adjust if at all. It's a major gamble. Wait till Dirk is really on the decline. Dirk has shown that he can still consistantly carry the offense. I remember when a lot of posters were b*tching that Dirk wasn't getting the ball enough earlier in the season. .Bring in Martin or another player like him with out giving up Butler and Dirk will most likely never see the ball on offense. You'll turn him into just another spot up shooter. There is only one ball in the game at a time.


What this team needs is a player who will be primarily be able to break down the D off the dribble. They have plenty of defensive libility shooters who are major assets in fantasy leagues. The former is the type of player that Roddy represents. Martin also has that ability but as you have yourself said Martin is not in Roddys league in that respect. Martin and players like him represent mostly an offensive upgrade to simular players skills already on the team. We don't need another player who might be a defensive libility especially on the perimiter. Sure Chandlers presence compensates for that but Dirk presence also compensates on the offensive end. The difference is that Dirk has a history of being consistantly healthy.

You say that you don't know what kind of player Roddy is! Did you miss the games that he was allowed to play last year? Perhaps you were refering to the unknown factor of his recovery. But he is what this team with the roster as it is now really needs so much more than they would need a player like Martin or Iggy with a far less cost to the cap.

Also I believe that ball dominant players, especially those who were the primary scoring options on losing teams, more often than not get locked into a pattern of play that they need to get rid of when the are placed on a winning team. Post players like Gasol don't have the same problem adjusting because they are not primary ball handlers such as a two guard would most certainly be..
Most of the candidates proposed for being Dirks robin actually would end up wanting to be Batman. Why do you think the Kings traded Martin in the first place. He couldn't share the floor with Evens.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by wilmtalk

Notice I said potential? I was in my post refering to the point you make about the availability of players like him in the league. He is the type of player who's potential impact would be difficult to replace. I was at first not really happy when the Mavs resigned Kidd to a 3 year contract. When they drafted Roddy my oppinion changed because with him on the floor Kidds shortcomings would be compensated for by a player with Roddys skills both on offense and defense. With the acquision of TC Kidds defensive libilities are less of a handicap because Chandler is the second line of defense for the quick guards that Kidd has trouble defending.

Roddy in essense is quick enough to defend the quick guards while also being able to break down the defense off the dribble which Kidd can no longer do. Why do you think JJB gets all his time on the floor. He brings those qualities which are lacking in the other guards on this team. Kidd is still a major asset to this team as long as he is teamed with the right players.

They main point of my post was that some of the players that other posters seem to be desperate to acquire might not really fit on this team. The two's they are promoting are generally defensive libilities. Yes Chandler makes up for a lot of that but he can't be on the floor all the time and is effective primarily in the zone. Remember why the team plays the zone-- To cover for the weak man to man defense of the prerimiter players. Do we really need another ball dominant offensive player who will hurt us on defense? Also remember the initial problem that Butler had fitting into the offense. How long would it take another ball dominant player to adjust if at all. It's a major gamble. Wait till Dirk is really on the decline. Dirk has shown that he can still consistantly carry the offense. I remember when a lot of posters were b*tching that Dirk wasn't getting the ball enough earlier in the season. .Bring in Martin or another player like him with out giving up Butler and Dirk will most likely never see the ball on offense. You'll turn him into just another spot up shooter. There is only one ball in the game at a time.


What this team needs is a player who will be primarily be able to break down the D off the dribble. They have plenty of defensive libility shooters who are major assets in fantasy leagues. The former is the type of player that Roddy represents. Martin also has that ability but as you have yourself said Martin is not in Roddys league in that respect. Martin and players like him represent mostly an offensive upgrade to simular players skills already on the team. We don't need another player who might be a defensive libility especially on the perimiter. Sure Chandlers presence compensates for that but Dirk presence also compensates on the offensive end. The difference is that Dirk has a history of being consistantly healthy.

You say that you don't know what kind of player Roddy is! Did you miss the games that he was allowed to play last year? Perhaps you were refering to the unknown factor of his recovery. But he is what this team with the roster as it is now really needs so much more than they would need a player like Martin or Iggy with a far less cost to the cap.

Also I believe that ball dominant players, especially those who were the primary scoring options on losing teams, more often than not get locked into a pattern of play that they need to get rid of when the are placed on a winning team. Post players like Gasol don't have the same problem adjusting because they are not primary ball handlers such as a two guard would most certainly be..
Most of the candidates proposed for being Dirks robin actually would end up wanting to be Batman. Why do you think the Kings traded Martin in the first place. He couldn't share the floor with Evens.

Roddy had a really great, limited rookie year. I don't think that we can assume he's going to be a 50/40/80 guy for the rest of his year, average 20 ppg, and make the all-NBA team a few times just because of some nice games against crappy teams the coaches knew he'd excel at. I'm a huge Roddy fan, love his potential, and fully believe he can do that. Assuming he can, though, especially due to his injury that appears troublesome, is rather ludicrous. Once again, I love Roddy and I want him back as soon as possible because I know that if he can translate his skills we saw last year into extending minutes, he will be a huge help. But its too early to know that for sure.