Official: Rondo to Dallas!!

[G-Man]

I'm getting tired of people talking about how great Brandan Wright is.He was fun to watch, but when it came to nut cuttung time against the good teams in the West, he just disappeared. More likely, they just defended him well and neutralized him. If Wright had been effective against good teams, I might agree, but he was not.

Against:
SA 6 points 5 boards
Portland 6/3
Mia 4/2
Hou 14/11 (no Dwight Howard)
PHX 8/4
Memphis 5/3
Golden State 7/5

In this trade, we gave up a PG who can't defend or get the ball to shooters and help them score
A big who disappears when we need him most
And a swing man who defends well and shoots poorly. We already have Aminu for that.

The reason we are losing is not because of the guys we lost, but because this group hasn't been together long enough to defend as a team. Opponents are open and they are hitting their shots. However, we lost very little defensive potential in this trade, so just calm the F down and give some time.

Geez.

[Dnowit41]

Originally Posted by G-Man

I'm getting tired of people talking about how great Brandan Wright is.He was fun to watch, but when it came to nut cuttung time against the good teams in the West, he just disappeared. More likely, they just defended him well and neutralized him. If Wright had been effective against good teams, I might agree, but he was not.

Against:
SA 6 points 5 boards
Portland 6/3
Mia 4/2
Hou 14/11 (no Dwight Howard)
PHX 8/4
Memphis 5/3
Golden State 7/5

In this trade, we gave up a PG who can't defend or get the ball to shooters and help them score
A big who disappears when we need him most
And a swing man who defends well and shoots poorly. We already have Aminu for that.

The reason we are losing is not because of the guys we lost, but because this group hasn't been together long enough to defend as a team. Opponents are open and they are hitting their shots. However, we lost very little defensive potential in this trade, so just calm the F down and give some time.

Geez.

Preach on my man

[lucky3s]

Originally Posted by G-Man

I'm getting tired of people talking about how great Brandan Wright is.He was fun to watch, but when it came to nut cuttung time against the good teams in the West, he just disappeared. More likely, they just defended him well and neutralized him. If Wright had been effective against good teams, I might agree, but he was not.

Against:
SA 6 points 5 boards
Portland 6/3
Mia 4/2
Hou 14/11 (no Dwight Howard)
PHX 8/4
Memphis 5/3
Golden State 7/5

In this trade, we gave up a PG who can't defend or get the ball to shooters and help them score
A big who disappears when we need him most
And a swing man who defends well and shoots poorly. We already have Aminu for that.

The reason we are losing is not because of the guys we lost, but because this group hasn't been together long enough to defend as a team. Opponents are open and they are hitting their shots. However, we lost very little defensive potential in this trade, so just calm the F down and give some time.

Geez.

hope ur right. if i could rewind time, i'd take the trade back and let houston take rondo and have their chemistry ruined because if harden has the ball then u can easily double him with the guy who is guarding rondo cuz rondo without a ball is just as good as a totem pole being on the court

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by lucky3s

hope ur right. if i could rewind time, i'd take the trade back and let houston take rondo and have their chemistry ruined because if harden has the ball then u can easily double him with the guy who is guarding rondo cuz rondo without a ball is just as good as a totem pole being on the court

Well said. Rondo is useless without the ball. Thus he needs to dominate the ball to be effective.

[yahyes]

Originally Posted by lucky3s

hope ur right. if i could rewind time, i'd take the trade back and let houston take rondo and have their chemistry ruined because if harden has the ball then u can easily double him with the guy who is guarding rondo cuz rondo without a ball is just as good as a totem pole being on the court

That was the longest sentence I have ever read.

[yahyes]

I want Rondo to stay long term.

[dude1394]

We miss wright but imo not nearly as much as a shooter at the pg spot.

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by dude1394

We miss wright but imo not nearly as much as a shooter at the pg spot.

Yep like Jason Terry used to be for us.

[G-Man]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Yep like Jason Terry used to be for us.

Jet was only point guard in his first years here. During the run to the first finals, we were losing until The Little General put the ball into Devin's hands. His drives past Tony Parker is what opened things up to give Jet room to operate on the outside.

Today's Mavs have Rondo (and off the bench, Devin) driving and kicking, and Monta Ellis is the Jason Terry role.

In spite of the growing pains, I'm very excited to have a point guard who can run the break, guard a quick opponent, see the court and make the impossible pass. All Nelson was good for was standing in the corner, unguarded, hoping to hit a 3. Breaking in a new point guard is hard, because his play effects everyone else. I can't wait until this all gets into sync. But as they say in Jamaica, when you've been waiting 30 minutes for that cup of Blue Mountain Coffee, "No problem, mon...soon come."

[dude1394]

Yea jet played point but until we actually got a point guard we didnt know what we were missing. I do think that rondo is going to have to change his game to move the ball more and not have it stick. He isnt a scoring point at all, like almost all of the other points in the west.

So he is going to have to be able to give it up. Our offfense gets good shots off ball movement to do that he has to give it up.

[G-Man]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I do think that rondo is going to have to change his game to move the ball more and not have it stick. He isnt a scoring point at all, like almost all of the other points in the west.

So he is going to have to be able to give it up. Our offfense gets good shots off ball movement to do that he has to give it up.

I agree 100%. I just think that if, as Doc Rivers often said, he is one of the smartest players in the NBA, he will soon get very good at moving the ball in ways that create shots. I just didn't expect it to happen in 3 games and 1 practice.

But from day one, he's been getting the ball to open shooters, especially to Dirk. But Dirk has been missing shots, others have not been ready for the ball, and on many occasions, the passes have been off target. All of this gets better with time. Damn, it hasn't been one week yet, and a shocking number of people have already declared the trade a bust. But then it took a championship to get a lot of people to admit that the Jason Kidd trade was a success.

[dude1394]

Well part of the problem at least in my mind was that the offense was never a problem. In fact a historically NOT a problem. So the trade definitely messed with something pretty special. It was a big risk. And a very easy risk to see. Rondo/ellis and rondo not being able to shoot. Every pnr going under the screen is hard to overcome actually. So i actually share the concern. It will stay one until fixed, or not, no problem, let folks voice it.

Whether it turns out to be a risk worth taking will depend on the defense. That should have gotten better immediately i would think since i keep hearing that rondo is all that, but it hasn't either.

At this very moment, rondo has not brought better offense or defense. It is pretty hard to defend the trade other than calling out his previous greatness. Certainly not what he has been doing the last few seasons.

It might be nice for folks to be patient, it would be just as nice for others to not try and shut down discussion with, "be patient". Be patient is an argument, just not a real good one. A no response would seem more honest. Some folks will be patient, others won't. It is just their nature.

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Well part of the problem at least in my mind was that the offense was never a problem. In fact a historically NOT a problem. So the trade definitely messed with something pretty special. It was a big risk. And a very easy risk to see. Rondo/ellis and rondo not being able to shoot. Every pnr going under the screen is hard to overcome actually. So i actually share the concern. It will stay one until fixed, or not, no problem, let folks voice it.

Whether it turns out to be a risk worth taking will depend on the defense. That should have gotten better immediately i would think since i keep hearing that rondo is all that, but it hasn't either.

At this very moment, rondo has not brought better offense or defense. It is pretty hard to defend the trade other than calling out his previous greatness. Certainly not what he has been doing the last few seasons.

It might be nice for folks to be patient, it would be just as nice for others to not try and shut down discussion with, "be patient". Be patient is an argument, just not a real good one. A no response would seem more honest. Some folks will be patient, others won't. It is just their nature.

Yep. Give the ball to Rondo on picks, defense goes underneath. Give the ball to Ellis and Rondo's guy helps out since Rondo can't shoot. I don't see these problems being fixed. Rondo would really have to improve his shot in order for this to be fixed. Also less touches for Parsons I've noticed. Rondo needs to give the ball to the white boys more. lol

[Windmill360]

If you want to see this fixed faster, make monta come off the bench. This gets the other starters more involved at start of games, makes Monta the primary ball handler like he wants with the second unit, still alows Monta to play with some of the first unit, and solves some of our production problems from the bench. He needs to embrace the Jason Terry role. It will never happen, so this is going to be a bit of a process.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Windmill360

If you want to see this fixed faster, make monta come off the bench. It will never happen, so this is going to be a bit of a process.

Aint happening and what does that fix? Rondo and ellis will be on the floor at the end. We have to get the ending five solid or it will never work?

[Windmill360]

If the other starters are more involved to start games, we won't have as many bad starts like we've been having. With monta off the bench we have the firepower to keep our team hot if we do start well, or give the team the spark it needs if we start poorly. We need a 6th man, we dont have anybody in that role. Seems like an easy fix. But i agree with you it will never happen. Monta is in his prime, Terry wasn't. Monta wont go for it and rick knows that.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by dude1394

It might be nice for folks to be patient, it would be just as nice for others to not try and shut down discussion with, "be patient". Be patient is an argument, just not a real good one. A no response would seem more honest. Some folks will be patient, others won't. It is just their nature.

Be patient, don't be patient, that's up to you. Just know that the process the team is going to go through to try to make this work is probably going to last all season regardless of your willingness to wait it out.

As for shutting down discussion with the "be patient" line of thinking, I don't see that happening at all, as most people, even those urging patience, are perfectly willing to acknowledge the challenges that came with the trade. Many of the most well-reasoned and balanced critiques of the Mavs' prospects post-trade have been made by people who are on the be patient side of things.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Windmill360

If the other starters are more involved to start games, we won't have as many bad starts like we've been having. With monta off the bench we have the firepower to keep our team hot if we do start well, or give the team the spark it needs if we start poorly. We need a 6th man, we dont have anybody in that role. Seems like an easy fix. But i agree with you it will never happen. Monta is in his prime, Terry wasn't. Monta wont go for it and rick knows that.

Well I'm actually not trying to argue that monta off the bench would not be really nice. However him coming off the bench will not fix our ending five problem quicker. That needs resolution asap. Then we could experiment with different starting lineups.

[EricaLubarsky]

People are vastly underesmating just how big a shift this team needs to make to get value out of Rondo. We went from a team where all but the centers created their own since Nash left. Our whole system is changing with no practice, no camp, no pre-season.

Whether we are better on the other end is up in the air-- personally don't think we needed to rehaul out offense, but losing a shooter necessitated that we create more movement to even keep our offense the same. It's going to take time to figure out, though.

Defensively, though, I'm still very concerned. Defensively we shouldn't have had to start over

[markus1234]

Kidd was the same type of player like Rondo. He also dominated the ball, averaged ~9 assists per game 2008-2011. And at the end of the day we played great flow offense with him running the show. Rondo is not the problem. Lack of shooters is the problem. Rondo kicks the ball out to a wide open Jefferson or Aminu and they do not know what to do. Let's hope Dirk finds his shooting touch and Rick plays Charlie a little bit more till our players learn how to catch and shoot again.

And BTW. Our pre-Rondo offense is overrated. Vs good teams our offense could usually not score many points.

vs. POR L 108-87
vs. MIA L 105-96
vs. HOU(without Dwight) L 95-92
vs. GSW L 105-98

We padded our point differentials vs. Philadelphia, LAL and co.

[G-Man]

Rondo's first game was Saturday. Then two more Monday and Tuesday. In 2 days, it will be an entire week! And he hasn't gotten it all figured out yet? Heads must roll. People should be fired. Get the torches and lets march on the AAC. We want Donnie's head on a stick!

So just for grins, I went back to re-watch the PHX game to see what went wrong. But first I see what went right. 6:48 into the 2nd quarter, Rondo hits a 3 and the Mavs are up 37-30. He's made a few boards, a few assists and led some mean looking fast breaks...one a sick half court bounce pass that led the PHX announcers to comment on how it hit Jefferson in the hands at full stride, no bending necessary. Another was a pretty bounce pass to a trailing Smith. After he sneaks in for a layup after a Tyson rebound, Mavs lead 39-30. For Jameer Nelson, that's 2 weeks worth of highlights.

But then Dragic beats Rondo for a layup off the dribble and gets another by leaking out while Rondo loafs back down the court. Next play, RR tosses to an open Charlie V who passes on a 3 and swoops in for a layup. After CV gives up a dunk, Rondo misses on a pass to a cutting Ellis. Now its 41-40, when Rondo, on the next play, forgets that Dirk can't jump and misses him on a cut to the hoop, leading to a fast break Dragic and one. It turns into an ugly 16-2 run, after which we played them even for the 2nd half.

Clearly, Rondo got us the lead, then he blew it, mainly with turnovers clearly based on not knowing his teammates. Plus, we've got Jefferson playing more minutes and Smith, who hasn't played at all, and the uncertainty of bringing in another center. This is why I keep saying be patient. We don't have nearly enough information to conclude that this stuff won't get fixed.

I'm not trying to shut down the discussion, but I am critical of your argument. Its like you have a car and you can tell there is no way its going to make the cross country trip you want to make. So you take it to the shop, and after an hour in the waiting room, you get upset that its not fixed yet. Some things take time. You can be patient, or you can complain. But as far as I know, complaining doesn't make the repair go faster, it just makes you upset.

But from what I read about Rondo, criticism will make him try harder to prove the critics wrong. So maybe I should be the one to shut up, and let you inspire him to greatness. When that happens, Dude, feel free to take full credit. Even when you are wrong, you are still among my favorite posters.

Now, in the great Jewish tradition, its off to our favorite Chinese restaurant for Christmas dinner. We're not Jewish, but it beats the heck out of having to do dishes when all that great NBA action is on tv. HAPPY HOLIDAYS, one and all.

[dude1394]

Happy holidays to you!

I read somewhere else about jewish folks having chinese during the holidays. Is there anything to that? I love the tradition btw.

The car analogy is kinda funny. Your mechhanic tells you that your perfectly humming engine just won't make the cross country trip and you need your engine replaced. He puts it in and it sputters and coughs and sounds like it wont make the block, let alone cross country. You scream wth, my car was running perfectly now it sounds like it is on its last legs.

He says, be patient, it will cough and sputter at least halfway there. But about the time you get to the middle of the desert and there is no turning back, it will start purring like a cat. Trust me, this engine had the greatest ratings 3 years ago.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Your mechhanic tells you that your perfectly humming engine...

Analogy fail.

[LonghornDub]

Which games were people watching when they say the Mavs had a "perfectly humming engine" (and similar) before the trade? They ran up a nice record playing one of the easiest schedules in the entire league. Other than close losses to a Howard-less Rockets and Spurs team missing 2/5 starters (incl. the Finals MVP), they were virtually uncompetitive with every West playoff team they had played.

Obviously things could have improved, but it's striking to me that some apparently think, based on this evidence, that the Mavs traded away a title contender, particularly given that Brandan Wright--a one-dimensional backup--was the best player they gave up.

The ONLY argument I see against this deal is that the Mavs mostly cleaned out their tradable assets. If you'd actually rather have Wright, Crowder, and Jameer Nelson (as players, not trade assets) than Rajon Rondo....I don't know what to say.

[mavsfan1000]

Seriously another person making light of how effective Wright was off the bench? You mention a couple poor performances to say he can't play against the best. I say ridiculous to that. We were stacked. Yes Nelson wasn't great. But at least he could hit open 3's. Unlike Rondo.

[G-Man]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Seriously another person making light of how effective Wright was off the bench? You mention a couple poor performances to say he can't play against the best. I say ridiculous to that. We were stacked. Yes Nelson wasn't great. But at least he could hit open 3's. Unlike Rondo.

Did you miss my post showing that Wright failed to get double figures against any Western Conference playoff team except Houston minus D Howard? This isn't making light. Its making an evidence based argument.

Against:
SA 6 points 5 boards
Portland 6/3
Mia 4/2
Hou 14/11 (no Dwight Howard)
PHX 8/4
Memphis 5/3
Golden State 7/5

And is there anything else Nelson could do besides make an occasional three? Now we have the best assist and rebounding PG in the league.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Seriously another person making light of how effective Wright was off the bench?

He was incredibly effective at scoring. And a net negative on D and the boards. A highly efficient, but one-dimensional player.

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

You mention a couple poor performances to say he can't play against the best.

I'm not sure what you're reading.

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

We were stacked.

It's cute to throw out words like "stacked," and you would have been right several years ago, but in the 2014 West, the Mavs were not stacked. They're good. Stacked? No. If they were stacked, they wouldn't be ranked at the very bottom of the league in defensive rebounding and 3PT defense. Basketball is about more than offense, as resistant as you may be to that.

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Yes Nelson wasn't great. But at least he could hit open 3's. Unlike Rondo.

I'm not sure what point you think you're making by cherry picking literally the only basketball skill at which Nelson excels versus Rondo, but I can assure you, it's not a very compelling one.

[hayth.james.g]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

He was incredibly effective at scoring. And a net negative on D and the boards. A highly efficient, but one-dimensional player.



I'm not sure what you're reading.



It's cute to throw out words like "stacked," and you would have been right several years ago, but in the 2014 West, the Mavs were not stacked. They're good. Stacked? No. If they were stacked, they wouldn't be ranked at the very bottom of the league in defensive rebounding and 3PT defense. Basketball is about more than offense, as resistant as you may be to that.



I'm not sure what point you think you're making by cherry picking literally the only basketball skill at which Nelson excels versus Rondo, but I can assure you, it's not a very compelling one.

God this post is amazing.

[sefant77]

I really dont get all the whining.

So the people who wanted to keep Wright know that he is going to be an UFA. And keeping him together with Chandler and Ellis would have killed our entire cap space?! Means keep on rolling with the same team and the same PGs.

Going for Dragic (or Rondo) as FA? You had to give up Wright anyway to create 10-12m cap. And fight with a handful teams for the two good available PG Dragic and Rondo....Rockets, Lakers, Knicks, Mavs etc. And Rondo probably allready traded to another teams incl. his bird rights.

And then you had the chance to get Rondo, show him the franchise and secure his bird rights and the price was only a 2016 late 1st? Yeah that was the true price, because again: Getting a guy like Rondo or Dragic as FA? Goodbye Wright...

And even if Dragic is maybe the better fit, would have been crazy to gamble for his FA signing here.

And people are forgetting Playoff Rondo. Wright didnt show jack so far in the playoffs. or even against most of the WC playoffteams. We have a solid chance to get playoff rondo in longterm and a great chance to get like a 80% playoff rondo. And this guy wipes the floor with Brandan Wright (sorry Brandan).

Re-sign everyone next summer and throw the Mini MLE after a backup big and you got allready a really nice seven player rotation. Maybe trade at draft night the 2015 pick with Feltons expiring and you got your 8th solid guy...

This season we have to get creative and lucky with a guy like JO. But the trade was and will be always an absolute no-brainer.

[Kante]

Can't agree more. When you get a chance to do Wright for Rondo, you do it (and it wasn't more as much as liked Crowder).

[dude1394]

Playoff rondo. Sounds like people trying to excuse crappy regular season play tbh. I look forward to playoff rondo in the regular season when we need to win games.

[sefant77]

I guess you are also looking forward to Playoff Rebounding Dirk...the sucka is always coasting the entire regular season and doesnt crash the boards...

Playoff Rondo just means that he showed in the past that he even has an extra gear for the playoffs - pretty much like Dirk.

[markus1234]

Rondo is playing great already. His rebounding gives us extra possessions and we play much better defense when he is on the court.

Once his (lack of chemistry) turnovers go down, we will be a good team.

[Kante]

Originally Posted by G-Man

I'm getting tired of people talking about how great Brandan Wright is.He was fun to watch, but when it came to nut cuttung time against the good teams in the West, he just disappeared. More likely, they just defended him well and neutralized him. If Wright had been effective against good teams, I might agree, but he was not.

Against:
SA 6 points 5 boards
Portland 6/3
Mia 4/2
Hou 14/11 (no Dwight Howard)
PHX 8/4
Memphis 5/3
Golden State 7/5

In this trade, we gave up a PG who can't defend or get the ball to shooters and help them score
A big who disappears when we need him most
And a swing man who defends well and shoots poorly. We already have Aminu for that.

The reason we are losing is not because of the guys we lost, but because this group hasn't been together long enough to defend as a team. Opponents are open and they are hitting their shots. However, we lost very little defensive potential in this trade, so just calm the F down and give some time.

Geez.

Missed this post somehow.

I nominate it for the post of the year award!

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by sefant77

I guess you are also looking forward to Playoff Rebounding Dirk...the sucka is always coasting the entire regular season and doesnt crash the boards...

Playoff Rondo just means that he showed in the past that he even has an extra gear for the playoffs - pretty much like Dirk.

No..and i dont know why you get so defensive. I have not seen a defensive difference maker in rondo, but that is what he is supposed to bring. I understand offense is going to be screwed up for a while bringing him in, but defensively it shouldnt matter.

But i keep reading this "playoff rondo" like I'm supposed to be waiting for something so that i can see the rondo greatness. If he is all that i do not see why i have to wait for the playoffs to find out.

I sure as **** do not have to wait to the playoffs to see the grestness of the dirkster.

[sefant77]

So maybe give Rondo some more time than just one freaking week aka three games...two against pretty hot teams...

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Which games were people watching when they say the Mavs had a "perfectly humming engine" (and similar) before the trade? They ran up a nice record playing one of the easiest schedules in the entire league. Other than close losses to a Howard-less Rockets and Spurs team missing 2/5 starters (incl. the Finals MVP), they were virtually uncompetitive with every West playoff team they had played.

Obviously things could have improved, but it's striking to me that some apparently think, based on this evidence, that the Mavs traded away a title contender, particularly given that Brandan Wright--a one-dimensional backup--was the best player they gave up.

The ONLY argument I see against this deal is that the Mavs mostly cleaned out their tradable assets. If you'd actually rather have Wright, Crowder, and Jameer Nelson (as players, not trade assets) than Rajon Rondo....I don't know what to say.

So the mavs offense was NOT the toast of the nba world? They did not have a great functioning offense? I really must have been watching a different nba. I was reading articles on grantland breaking down our great offense, almost talking about how it was historic.

What about that is not a humming engine?

I understand the totality of crappy defense and all. But at the end of the day we did NOT have an offensive problem that i could see. If we did, educate me.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by sefant77

So maybe give Rondo some more time than just one freaking week aka three games...two against pretty hot teams...

Well i will, but damn the rondo rooters are thin skinned. The best post in this whole thing was g-mans who went back and actually looked at his performance.

[tap2390]

Originally Posted by dude1394

So the mavs offense was NOT the toast of the nba world? They did not have a great functioning offense? I really must have been watching a different nba. I was reading articles on grantland breaking down our great offense, almost talking about how it was historic.

What about that is not a humming engine?

I understand the totality of crappy defense and all. But at the end of the day we did NOT have an offensive problem that i could see. If we did, educate me.

You're right. Our offense was fantastic, but how far will that get us? How far did it get other offensive minded teams? In all but one of our losses we gave up 100+ points. To me the Rondo trade was primarily about perimeter defense.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by tap2390

You're right. Our offense was fantastic, but how far will that get us? How far did it get other offensive minded teams? In all but one of our losses we gave up 100+ points. To me the Rondo trade was primarily about perimeter defense.

That is EXACTLY the point I am making. The Rondo proponents highlight his great passing, great court vision, bbiq. Great, I get it, he might be the greatest thing as a passing point guard since sliced bread.

But this team anyway, did not need a lot of help there, in fact, well hardly any. But they do need defensive help tremendously, but I don't really see the rondo proponents touting his defense that much. It is odd.

EDIT: I will say that Dallas has won the rebounding contest 2 of the last 3 games. I thought the Hawks would be tougher but both of those teams are kinda small. But a win is a win for a definite team issue.