Tank or try? - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Twenty4sevenn · 07-09-2015, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tap2390

Trade Dirk to the Rockets

Don't ever say that again.

flyslow · 07-09-2015, 07:47 AM

Tank but with some class:

1. Don't be hypocritical about it. Be open about our goal: win zero games, get draft choices

2. See what Dirk wants and try our best to accommodate him. If we are fortunate enough that he would like to remain affiliated with the Mavs, then be grateful that a person of such high character wants to stay with the Mavs in some capacity even if not as a player.

3. Allow Carlisle to move on if he wants to leave. Find a coach that is motivated to teach and develop young players and is willing to go with that process for more than a year or two.

4. Tell are the veteran players that remain that if they want to move on then we will try our best for them. If they want to stay then their job is to assist in the development of our young players and build the organization. If they go not want to do that and they are untradeable, then let them ride the pine.

5. In the future we should never forget the very valuable lesson we have learned: character counts. The huge mistakes with Rondo and Lam Lam could have easily been avoided. Their bad character was on display for all the world to see. Married to a woman whose last name is Khardasian? What more do you need to know? Acquire players in the future with character as a high priority. Is Cuban capable of doing that? If he hasn't learned by now then my best guess is that I will loose interest in the Mavs and the NBA. After all I don't watch the soaps or the WWE, why should I be interested in the NBA?

6. With regard to when the Clippers come to town, a poster suggested the game be played in front of an empty arena. Excellent idea. What a message that would send to DJ but also to the entire NBA.

bunkmoreland · 07-09-2015, 07:48 AM

Tank one year. During Mavs/Clippers games, foul DeAndre Jordan every possession until 9/13 players foul out and a forfeit must be declared.

dirt_dobber · 07-09-2015, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

How do you even go about "trying" at this point, though? The Mavs have NOTHING to work with. We've got a roster that is light years away from being competitive in the West, basically no trade assets, and cap space but nobody to spend it on. I'm not a "fan" of tanking either, but I think the Mavs are gonna be tanking whether they want to or not.

try - by going hard with whatever you do have and let the chips fall where they may.
Let Dirk bomb away.
Same for Wesley Matthews'.
See what Parson's can give you.
Get scrappy on defense.
Play unconventional style (kind of Nellie-esque)
Coach 'em up with Carlisle.
Get a serviceable center - someone young and hungry that wants to prove he belongs.

If this results in "light years away from being competitive in the West" than so be it - at least you tried. But just to pull what the 76'ers are doing would sicken me as a fan.

Thespiralgoeson · 07-09-2015, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirt_dobber

try - by going hard with whatever you do have and let the chips fall where they may.
Let Dirk bomb away.
Same for Wesley Matthews'.
See what Parson's can give you.
Get scrappy on defense.
Play unconventional style (kind of Nellie-esque)
Coach 'em up with Carlisle.
Get a serviceable center - someone young and hungry that wants to prove he belongs.

If this results in "light years away from being competitive in the West" than so be it - at least you tried. But just to pull what the 76'ers are doing would sicken me as a fan.

If doing the above things means giving our first round pick away to the Celtics next year, that would sicken me as a fan.

dirt_dobber · 07-09-2015, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

If doing the above things means giving our first round pick away to the Celtics next year, that would sicken me as a fan.

ahhh yes - the ghost of Rondo will haunt us for awhile...

MFFL · 07-09-2015, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunkmoreland

Tank one year. During Mavs/Clippers games, foul DeAndre Jordan every possession until 9/13 players foul out and a forfeit must be declared.

The NBA doesn't allow forfeits in that scenario. The first player to foul out is reinstated with an additional foul. When another player fouls out, the next player in line is reinstated. You can have an ugly team of mismatched players but you will have 5 players on the court

bunkmoreland · 07-09-2015, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFFL

The NBA doesn't allow forfeits in that scenario. The first player to foul out is reinstated with an additional foul. When another player fouls out, the next player in line is reinstated. You can have an ugly team of mismatched players but you will have 5 players on the court

Interesting. Well that could be even more fun then.

MFFL · 07-09-2015, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

If doing the above things means giving our first round pick away to the Celtics next year, that would sicken me as a fan.

We owe them a pick regardless. Pull the bandaid off

2016 first round draft pick to Boston
Dallas' 1st round pick to Boston protected for 1-7 in 2016, 1-7 in 2017, 1-7 in 2018, 1-7 in 2019 and 1-7 in 2020 and unprotected in 2021 [Boston-Dallas, 12/18/2014]

Erod · 07-09-2015, 09:54 AM

If Dallas tries, get ready for about a decade of being the Orlando Magic.

By all means, it's time to tank.

tap2390 · 07-09-2015, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twenty4sevenn

Don't ever say that again.

Why? With Dirk they would compete for a ring, doesn't Dirk deserve that? They're one of the few trade destinations that make sense along with Golden State. The Spurs have too many power forwards already.

All I'm saying is IF Dirk decides he wants another ring, it would turn out to be best for both parties as bad as it would hurt to see him in another jersey. But hell, Brett Favre did it.

bunkmoreland · 07-09-2015, 10:00 AM

I say you let Dirk decide. If he asks to be traded, sure, you trade him. If he would rather stay here, you honor that too. He deserves to get to make the call.

Thespiralgoeson · 07-09-2015, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunkmoreland

I say you let Dirk decide. If he asks to be traded, sure, you trade him. If he would rather stay here, you honor that too. He deserves to get to make the call.

Exactly. As I said the Jordan thread, if I were Cuban, I would offer to buy out Dirk's contract so he can retire with dignity, or play somewhere else if he wants to- even in Europe if that makes him happy. If we can't give him another chance to compete, then he at least deserves to end his career on his own terms.

DirkFTW · 07-09-2015, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFFL

We owe them a pick regardless. Pull the bandaid off

2016 first round draft pick to Boston
Dallas' 1st round pick to Boston protected for 1-7 in 2016, 1-7 in 2017, 1-7 in 2018, 1-7 in 2019 and 1-7 in 2020 and unprotected in 2021 [Boston-Dallas, 12/18/2014]

I'm in the try camp for this year. Realistically, we'd have to tank multiple years, so why not hold off one more year for Dirk's sake. Plus, we'd then get rid of our obligations to Boston instead of having that hang over our heads as we're trying to rebuild.

Gotta go for Hibbert though. Then between Harris, Matthews, Justin Anderson, and Hibbert, perhaps Carlisle can fashion a decent defensive identity that can go with Parsons and Dirk being the engines on offense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFFL

The NBA doesn't allow forfeits in that scenario. The first player to foul out is reinstated with an additional foul. When another player fouls out, the next player in line is reinstated. You can have an ugly team of mismatched players but you will have 5 players on the court

So... we could DNP-Old everyone except 5 bruisers? Raja Bell, Artest, MBenga, Cardinal and Felton (sorry-not-sorry). Although with Artest, we might need a sixth man in case he gets ejected.

bunkmoreland · 07-09-2015, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirkFTW

I'm in the try camp for this year. Realistically, we'd have to tank multiple years, so why not hold off one more year for Dirk's sake. Plus, we'd then get rid of our obligations to Boston instead of having that hang over our heads as we're trying to rebuild.

You make an excellent point. I had not thought about it that way.
If Dirk doesn't want to tank, maybe it is best to just give it the best shot we can for one more year, convey the pick and THEN start over.

Thespiralgoeson · 07-09-2015, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunkmoreland

You make an excellent point. I had not thought about it that way.
If Dirk doesn't want to tank, maybe it is best to just give it the best shot we can for one more year, convey the pick and THEN start over.

Again, the problem is, we have nothing to work with. I think we're going to be tanking whether we like it or not because we have a shit roster, no trade assets, and the free agent pool is completely dried up.

bunkmoreland · 07-09-2015, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Again, the problem is, we have nothing to work with. I think we're going to be tanking whether we like it or not because we have a shit roster, no trade assets, and the free agent pool is completely dried up.

Agree that we have little to work with. But if you give Dirk the choice between full on rebuild or signing guys with an intention of an admittedly desperation shot at being competitive and he says he wants to give it one more shot this year, maybe you give him that. Maybe you use it as payout for his service as well as conveying the pick. And then midway through the season, if it is hopeless as we expect, then you start trading for the future.

purplefrog · 07-09-2015, 10:43 AM

Tanking is most likely the intelligent thing to do for the Mavs long-term future. However, it goes against my grain to develop an intentional strategy for a high lottery pick. I would rather pick up a bunch of players who are willing to leave it all on the court on a daily basis, who will hustle, be physical, and are consummate pros, and then let the chips fall where they may.

Underdog · 07-09-2015, 10:48 AM

LOL, some of you still think tanking is an OPTION...

DirkFTW · 07-09-2015, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

LOL, some of you still think tanking is an OPTION...

Agreed. Tanking is not an option.

Underdog · 07-09-2015, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirkFTW

Agreed. Tanking is not an option.

Third base!

How is tanking "not an option" when our roster is warm garbage and there are no free agents left on the market? I mean, I guess you can *TRY* to win games with Satnam Singh as your starting center, but trying isn't doing. Right now we're a lot closer to the #1 pick in the draft than we are to the 8th seed in the West.

Fragism · 07-09-2015, 11:01 AM

Just tank. Sign Roddy B for entertainment purposes

EricaLubarsky · 07-09-2015, 11:05 AM

By my approximation:

Try- win at a pace of about .340-.400, miss the playoffs, give our pick away, lose some good talent including coach

Tank- win at a pace of about .150-.200, miss the playoffs, keep our pick, potentially also lose good talent

Twenty4sevenn · 07-09-2015, 11:08 AM

I think some of you don't know what "tanking" means. Tanking is PURPOSELY losing. Tanking is the organization and players saying "we are gonna try to be the worst in the league". Tanking is despicable and everyone involved in that idea should feel bad.

If we suck, fine. I can handle that. But at least try. I will pull for and support a .500 team for the rest of my life. With no shame at all. I will not ever support a team who decides to lose on purpose. For any reason.

Melonhead · 07-09-2015, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFFL

Golden State
Houston
Clippers
Memphis Grizzlies
San Antonio Spurs
New Orleans Pelicans
Oklahoma City
Phoenix Suns

Are better. That's eight.

Portland
Utah
Denver
Sacramento
Lakers
Minnesota

Are not better. Even with a merry min rotation at center

So we're 9th.

Sac is way better than the mavs right now. Utah is better. So we're 11th

Melonhead · 07-09-2015, 11:13 AM

Dirk said he would play until it isnt fun anymore. There is no way he is looking forward to this season as fun.

EricaLubarsky · 07-09-2015, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twenty4sevenn

I think some of you don't know what "tanking" means. Tanking is PURPOSELY losing. Tanking is the organization and players saying "we are gonna try to be the worst in the league". Tanking is despicable and everyone involved in that idea should feel bad.

If we suck, fine. I can handle that. But at least try. I will pull for and support a .500 team for the rest of my life. With no shame at all. I will not ever support a team who decides to lose on purpose. For any reason.

Mavs won't make .500 next season. Not with 2/3 of games against the West and no center. We are talking .300 or .400. Let's not pretend this is a choice between .500 and .000. It's between .400 and .150

ocelot_ark · 07-09-2015, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twenty4sevenn

I think some of you don't know what "tanking" means. Tanking is PURPOSELY losing. Tanking is the organization and players saying "we are gonna try to be the worst in the league". Tanking is despicable and everyone involved in that idea should feel bad.

If we suck, fine. I can handle that. But at least try. I will pull for and support a .500 team for the rest of my life. With no shame at all. I will not ever support a team who decides to lose on purpose. For any reason.

We can absolutely "try" while still tanking. It all boils down to player personnel. If Greg Smith is our starting center, for instance. If we hold Wes and Parsons out for "health reasons" for considerable stretches. If we sit Dirk every other game to "prolong his career." If we ship off Devin for a draft pick to someone that could use a veteran guard. If we take on bad contracts to get some draft picks.

Regardless, there are plenty of ways for us to be terrible while the players we DO have are giving 100%.

The biggest issue, as has always been the case for the Mavs front office, is a complete disregard for the value of draft picks. They give them away like they're candy. That Rondo trade was beyond terrible, even if Rondo had turned out to be okay. You don't give a 1st rounder to take a known attitude problem.

hayth.james.g · 07-09-2015, 11:18 AM

It's time for a new era for the Dallas Mavs. This year we have to do whatever is in the best interest of Dirk. If he wants to play it out, then he more than deserves it. We get our 35-42 wins and pass over the pick to the Celtics.

Personally, As much as I would love to see Dirk retire a Mav, I think he deserves another legitimate shot a title. Would love to see him traded or bought out at his discretion. Mavs tank and we have something to root for (win Dirk win). I am interested to see how this next phase takes course. I hope Parsons can add some much needed layers to his game. Get great at something. Obviously we run the risk of losing him next off season, but if we land a top 2-3 pick and with tons of cap space we should have at least something enticing to offer.

Anyways at this point it is what it is. Life moves on. I am forever thankful to at least be apart of a franchise centered around such a selfless star. It's very rare in today's sports. Let's give Dirk everything he wants or asks for and move on. Time for Cuban to write his own legacy not hinged on The Great German.

Twenty4sevenn · 07-09-2015, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Mavs won't make .500 next season. Not with 2/3 of games against the West and no center. We are talking .300 or .400. Let's not pretend this is a choice between .500 and .000. It's between .400 and .150

.500 is an arbitrary number I used. I don't care what our record is if the FO, coaches, and players are doing their best to win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ocelot_ark

We can absolutely "try" while still tanking. It all boils down to player personnel. If Greg Smith is our starting center, for instance. If we hold Wes and Parsons out for "health reasons" for considerable stretches. If we sit Dirk every other game to "prolong his career." If we ship off Devin for a draft pick to someone that could use a veteran guard. If we take on bad contracts to get some draft picks.

Regardless, there are plenty of ways for us to be terrible while the players we DO have are giving 100%.

The biggest issue, as has always been the case for the Mavs front office, is a complete disregard for the value of draft picks. They give them away like they're candy. That Rondo trade was beyond terrible, even if Rondo had turned out to be okay. You don't give a 1st rounder to take a known attitude problem.

Doing those things would be our FO trying to lose. I'm not down with that.

Underdog · 07-09-2015, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twenty4sevenn

I think some of you don't know what "tanking" means. Tanking is PURPOSELY losing. Tanking is the organization and players saying "we are gonna try to be the worst in the league". Tanking is despicable and everyone involved in that idea should feel bad.

If we suck, fine. I can handle that. But at least try. I will pull for and support a .500 team for the rest of my life. With no shame at all. I will not ever support a team who decides to lose on purpose. For any reason.

I think "tanking" in this case boils down to how we build our roster, not how the players perform on the court... Pro basketball players are ALWAYS going to try to win games -- but Cuban has the opportunity to improve our chances of racing to the bottom if he doesn't go out and try to sign the best talent available (which doesn't appear to be an option anyway, so it's probably a moot point).

Remember, if we don't end up as one of the worst 7 teams in the league, then we lose this season's draft pick to Boston... I mean, we're definitely not playing for a ring, and we're probably not even playing for the 8th seed -- is it worth losing our pick if we're only good enough to be the 10th seed in the West? It's not like Dirk's final years are going to be any less wasted...

G-Man · 07-09-2015, 11:22 AM

I like the idea of using this years cap space to take on some unwanted contracts, as long as they come with 1st round picks.

The best thing Dirk could do for the Mavs is be traded, if the trade nets us 1st round picks. He may be just that loyal.

Forgotten is that the greatest Dallas Cowboys player of all time was Hershell Walker. His trade netted us Alvin HArper, Darren Woodson, Russell Maryland and Emmitt Smith. Dirk is no longer good enough to get us multiple hall of famers, but him leaving would help us tank. If we had 2 lottery picks-our own and one via trade, along with Chandler and Matthews, it could be a start.

Dirk could go down in history as maybe the only player responsible for two dynasties. We'd give him a ring and put his name on the banner for every championship the new team wins.

Plus, if we trade Dirk, I'd have another team to root for during the rebuild.

Right now, my favorite team is whoever is playing the Clippers. My favorite player is the next guy who fouls Deandre Jordan hard.

Thespiralgoeson · 07-09-2015, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I think "tanking" in this case boils down to how we build our roster, not how the players perform on the court... Pro basketball players are ALWAYS going to try to win games -- but Cuban has the opportunity to improve our chances of racing to the bottom if he doesn't go out and try to sign the best talent available.

Remember, if we don't end up as one of the worst 7 teams in the league, then we lose this season's draft pick to Boston... I mean, we're definitely not playing for a ring, and we might not even be playing for the 8th seed. Is it worth losing our pick if we're only good enough to be the 10th seed in the West?

Exactly- players are always going to try to win- coaches too. But if I'm an owner or a gm of a team that has absolutely no chance of being even remotely competitive, then I'm not about to try to frantically make desperation moves that will make the team just barely good enough not to get a lottery pick. I hoard my cap space and try to trade whatever assets I have for more picks, and then I hope I get very lucky in the draft.

SMC0007 · 07-09-2015, 12:07 PM

I think tanking could be entertaining to watch... well comical. It may be more fun to watch than them trying. Blatantly launching up odd shots and ridiculous passing. I don't wanna see turnovers tho. Maybe pants the other team on occasion. Globetrotters meets failed and1.

FreshJive · 07-09-2015, 01:56 PM

Where does this idea that we have to tank multiple years come from? I guarantee this is not Cuban's idea. They just signed Wes Matthews. This roster is good enough, that a high draft pick, and next season's cap space can put a competitive team on the floor. "David Robinson season" does not mean 76ers plan.

Thespiralgoeson · 07-09-2015, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshJive

Where does this idea that we have to tank multiple years come from? I guarantee this is not Cuban's idea. They just signed Wes Matthews. This roster is good enough, that a high draft pick, and next season's cap space can put a competitive team on the floor. "David Robinson season" does not mean 76ers plan.

Well obviously you don't want to tank for multiple years. If you manage to get a superstar in the draft next season, then you go from there. But if you get nothing out of the draft, then tank until you get something you can build around.

MavzMan · 07-09-2015, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyslow

Tank but with some class:

1. Don't be hypocritical about it. Be open about our goal: win zero games, get draft choices

2. See what Dirk wants and try our best to accommodate him. If we are fortunate enough that he would like to remain affiliated with the Mavs, then be grateful that a person of such high character wants to stay with the Mavs in some capacity even if not as a player.

3. Allow Carlisle to move on if he wants to leave. Find a coach that is motivated to teach and develop young players and is willing to go with that process for more than a year or two.

4. Tell are the veteran players that remain that if they want to move on then we will try our best for them. If they want to stay then their job is to assist in the development of our young players and build the organization. If they go not want to do that and they are untradeable, then let them ride the pine.

5. In the future we should never forget the very valuable lesson we have learned: character counts. The huge mistakes with Rondo and Lam Lam could have easily been avoided. Their bad character was on display for all the world to see. Married to a woman whose last name is Khardasian? What more do you need to know? Acquire players in the future with character as a high priority. Is Cuban capable of doing that? If he hasn't learned by now then my best guess is that I will loose interest in the Mavs and the NBA. After all I don't watch the soaps or the WWE, why should I be interested in the NBA?

6. With regard to when the Clippers come to town, a poster suggested the game be played in front of an empty arena. Excellent idea. What a message that would send to DJ but also to the entire NBA.

I'm absolutely on board with this strategy. Come on #1 pick Ben Simmons!

FreshJive · 07-09-2015, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Well obviously you don't want to tank for multiple years. If you manage to get a superstar in the draft next season, then you go from there. But if you get nothing out of the draft, then tank until you get something you can build around.

That's why I think it's a disaster to try to make the playoffs next year. The most likely scenario is that they won't make the playoffs and lose their draft pick. This is more likely to ensure those multiple years of misery, than one season of all out tanking would.

MFFL · 07-09-2015, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melonhead

Sac is way better than the mavs right now. Utah is better. So we're 11th

I refuse to believe that Sac is better than us. Any team with that chemistry is going to implode messily

EricaLubarsky · 07-09-2015, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFFL

I refuse to believe that Sac is better than us. Any team with that chemistry is going to implode messily

Sac has more talent, but they will fire their coach for an interim and have at least two fist fights in the locker room this year.