Diop, Moore, Johnson (and other centers) - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

echo · 08-12-2005, 10:18 AM

There are a few older threads on backup centers, but since many of the names mentioned are off the board I thought I would condense things.

The three names mentioned are:

DeSagana Diop (restricted) from Cleveland. 7'0, 280 lbs. 23 yrs old. 3 seasons. Career stats: 1.6 ppg, 2.6 rbs, .9 blks, 35.8 FG%, 40% FT % in 10.8 minutes a game. Couldn't geplay for a non-playoff team despite a need for a quality backup center. 8th pick in the draft and some raw talent, but is he better than DJ at this point?

Mikki Moore (unrestricted) from the Clippers. Career journeyman. 7'0, 223 lbs. 30 yrs old. 7 seasons. Career stats: 4.7 ppg, 3.2 rbs, .06 blks, 51.6 FG%, 77.6 FT% in 13.6 minutes per game. Last season he was 5.4 ppg, 3.3 rbs, .4 blks, 50.2 FG%, 78.7 FT% in 15.9 minutes per game. Nothing special, but at least he's capable of playing now.

Ervin Johnson (unrestricted) from Minnesota. 6'11, 255 lbs. 37 yrs old. 12 seasons. Career stats: 4.2 ppg, 6.2 rbs, 1.3 blks, 50.6 FG%, 60.5 FT% in 20.4 minutes per game. Last season he could barely get off the bench in Minnesota despite being behind a spare Kandi who missed half of the season. Last seasons numbers: 1.6 ppg, 2.5 rbs, .3 blks, 51.9% FG%, 64% FT% in 8.9 minutes per game. I think he's totally done.

Other cheap guys of note:

Francisco Elson (restricted) from Denver. 7'0, 235 lbs. 29 yrs old. 2 seasons. Career stats: 3.6 ppg, 3.1 rbs, .6 blks, 47% FG%, 60.5 FT% in 14.1 minutes per game. Stuck behind Camby and Nene in Denver.

Elden Campbell (unrestricted) from NJ/Det. 7'0, 279 lbs. 37 yrs old. 15 seasons. Probably not much left. Barely played in NJ. Last season in 30 games with Detroit he averaged: 3.9 ppg, 2.7 rbs, .2 blks, 33.6 FG%, 78.4 FT% in 11.3 minutes per game.

Andrew DeClercq (unrestricted) from Orlando. 6'10, 255 lbs. 32 yrs old. 10 seasons. Hurt most of last season. Career stats: 4.8 ppg, 4.2 rbs, .5 blks, 50.7 FG%, 62.1 FT% in 16.8 minutes per game.

Then you have Wang, Scott Williams, Kevin Willis, Bruno Sundov, Jelani McCoy, etc.

None of these guys are worth more than the LLE. Not crazy about relying on Diop as a backup when DJ is probably as (or more) advanced. The only guy worth one year at the LLE is Moore IMO.

Thoughts?

dalmations202 · 08-12-2005, 10:26 AM

Give me Elson. He seems to have a little upside at least. We have better than Diop in PPod. Moore, Johnson just take up space, and don't let the kids develop. Campbell is less than Damp and has the same issues. Let's face it the rest are spares, so you might as well let DJ develop.

<edit> Refuse to let Bradley retire and make him play, if they just want to spare us to death. At least Bradley could change a game, even if he couldn't do it consistently.

bobatundi1 · 08-12-2005, 10:29 AM

if the money's all the same, i'd go for Diop purely on age. none of these guys thrill me, but at 23, Diop could still have upside; the rest of the names I've seen tossed about are over the hill and were never that great anyway.

echo · 08-12-2005, 10:30 AM

I like Elson, but if we can only offer 2 million a year (after signing Christie) Denver will certainly match. Camby is fragile so he has value to them. Of the rest I prefer Moore because if DJ develops he can sit. But unlike Diop he has at least proven he can play a bit. Johnson and Campbell are done. I want no part of either.

echo · 08-12-2005, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: bobatundi1
if the money's all the same, i'd go for Diop purely on age. none of these guys thrill me, but at 23, Diop could still have upside; the rest of the names I've seen tossed about are over the hill and were never that great anyway.

Look at Diop's shooting percentages. Pure crap. He has been given some minutes and has progressed zero in three seasons. We have two projects already, makes no sense to add another who is probably not as ready to play as DJ is now.

echo · 08-12-2005, 10:47 AM

Pretty sad I'm jumping on the Mikki Moore bandwagon now considering who I wanted when the offseason began!!! But since the guys I was most interested in (Gadzuric, Zaza, Hunter, Mutombo, D. Davis) are gone or no longer obtainable because of salary I think he makes the most sense.

Follow my logic. Start the season with Moore as your primary backup to Damp. Send DJ and PPod to the NBDL. Give DJ some heavy minutes for 10-20 games there. I think it will help his development more than getting 5-6 minutes per game at the start of the season. Bring him back to the Mavs (sending Marshall down) with about 50-60 games left. With heavy NBDL minutes under his belt he should be better able to play 15-18 minutes a game behind Damp. Moore is phased into the 3rd center position and hopefully DJ is playoff ready. Not ideal, but better than any alterantive I see.

madape · 08-12-2005, 11:06 AM

Not much left. We really screwed the pooch on this one.

Out of that bunch of scrubs, I guess I'd take <gag> Mikki Moore. I'm interested in someone who can come in and play right now. I don't want any project centers like Diop. We have a couple of those guys. I don't want any broken down cripples like Ervin Johnson or Scott Williams.

Erick Dampier is as unreliable as they come. We need someone we can depend on to take over when he gets injured or becomes uninterested (both of which are very high probabilities).

I can't beleive it's come to this.

echo · 08-12-2005, 11:06 AM

I guess I should add Booth to the list as he will likely be an amnesty casualty. Raef, Blount and Rasho are long shots to be released.

kg_veteran · 08-12-2005, 11:11 AM

It should be pointed out that the Mavs could have had Rasho for TAW, if they were so inclined.

The team is not without options.

echo · 08-12-2005, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: madape
Not much left. We really screwed the pooch on this one.

Out of that bunch of scrubs, I guess I'd take <gag> Mikki Moore. I'm interested in someone who can come in and play right now. I don't want any project centers like Diop. We have a couple of those guys. I don't want any broken down cripples like Ervin Johnson or Scott Williams.

Erick Dampier is as unreliable as they come. We need someone we can depend on to take over when he gets injured or becomes uninterested (both of which are very high probabilities).

I can't beleive it's come to this.

I'm not thrilled either, but it makes no sense to add another project (Diop) and guys like Johnson, Campbell, Williams, Willis really have nothing left. And Damp will miss some games and be in foul trouble in others. Plus we want him as fresh as possible come playoff time.

bobatundi1 · 08-12-2005, 11:32 AM

yeah, i take it back. Diop does us no good. if we're going for an unproven player and hoping for upside, i'd rather see DJ get the minutes.

The Miles · 08-12-2005, 11:38 AM

Diop is where Hunter was last year, not much difference. The 62 win Suns went with a veteran minimum bust backup C and now he is getting paid millions. They are everywhere, all you do is sign them and play them and their value rises.

All the team is doing is replacing 2.7 ppg, 2.8 rpg, .82 bpg, 45.2% fg's. That is what Bradley gave the team as the backup last year in 77 games off the bench, 11.5 mpg. It isn't exactly tough to find guys that can replace that and more.

echo · 08-12-2005, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: bobatundi1
yeah, i take it back. Diop does us no good. if we're going for an unproven player and hoping for upside, i'd rather see DJ get the minutes.

Normally I wouldn't be against someone like Diop. However in three seasons he hasn't shown anything so he's right there with DJ and PPod in the project category, and DJ definitely showed more than Diop in summer league. Plus if you sign Diop you will have Diop. DJ, PPod, Powell and Marshall on your 15 man roster. No guarantee any are ready to contribute. I guess you could add Harris to that list, but I think he's at least ready for decent backup PG minutes. Plus Diop can't be sent to the NBDL, all the other guys can.

echo · 08-12-2005, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: The Miles
Diop is where Hunter was last year, not much difference. The 62 win Suns went with a veteran minimum bust backup C and now he is getting paid millions. They are everywhere, all you do is sign them and play them and their value rises.

All the team is doing is replacing 2.7 ppg, 2.8 rpg, .82 bpg, 45.2% fg's. That is what Bradley gave the team as the backup last year in 77 games off the bench, 11.5 mpg. It isn't exactly tough to find guys that can replace that and more.

True, but I trust a guy that had one productive season as a backup more than a guy that has had none. Are you convinced Diop is more ready than DJ or even PPod? If so how? If not, why bring him in. With Moore or Booth you know what you're getting. By season's end I would like to see DJ as our primary backup, but if he falters I would rather have a guy who has at least some experience. Bringing in Diop almost insures that Dirk plays heavy center minutes if Diop/DJ falter. A center that that can't hit 40% of his FG's doesn't exactly inspire me.

FilthyFinMavs · 08-12-2005, 12:14 PM

I was for signing Diop yesterday but some of you have convinced me that we really don't need another Ppod and Benga even though I think Diop is more advanced than both of them. I'd take Elson. I like what he brought off the bench for the Nuggets. Actually he's the best center up there IMO.

The Miles · 08-12-2005, 12:25 PM

Backup Cs are like NFL kickers, they all do the same thing basically. Sure, there are some really good ones like Morten Anderson (or Mutombo/Gadzuric this year in FA), but the majority of them are guys that are interchangable.

Just bring one in, give him some minutes in preseason competing with DJ, and in the end you have three guys you can play in a game at C and one in the NBDL in case of emergency.

3/3/1 (and that is rounding up!) is what the team is replacing here.

echo · 08-12-2005, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: The Miles
Backup Cs are like NFL kickers, they all do the same thing basically. Sure, there are some really good ones like Morten Anderson (or Mutombo/Gadzuric this year in FA), but the majority of them are guys that are interchangable.

Just bring one in, give him some minutes in preseason competing with DJ, and in the end you have three guys you can play in a game at C and one in the NBDL in case of emergency.

3/3/1 (and that is rounding up!) is what the team is replacing here.

I agree that the pickings are pretty slim now. There were guys who definitely would have been an upgrade over Bradley, but they are gone. Now you simply have to roll the dice on inexperience versus a proven, yet mediocre backup. Based on potential I like DJ the most, but he could very well flop (like Diop has so far) and be less productive than a mediocre Moore or Booth. Assuming a Boston trade for Pierce (and either Raef or Blount) isn't in the works I guess you roll the dice and if DJ/Diop or Moore are not working out you try and make a trade in season. I just hate it when Dirk gets heavy center minutes.

Thespiralgoeson · 08-12-2005, 12:44 PM

Elson's the guy I want, but as echo pointed out, Denver will certainly match any offer we can give him. Moore's my second choice.

echo · 08-12-2005, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Thespiralgoeson
Elson's the guy I want, but as echo pointed out, Denver will certainly match any offer we can give him. Moore's my second choice.

Well I saw Elson on a free agent list but checked another and he's not on it. Evidently he had a team option that was exercised so scratch him off the list. My apologies for including him.

Thespiralgoeson · 08-12-2005, 12:56 PM

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The Miles · 08-12-2005, 01:06 PM

If you want to upgrade Bradley, you go with Moore. If you want to go with pure talent, you go with Diop.

I say you don't need a 3rd PG (Quis/Christie can do it) and you sign both.

echo · 08-12-2005, 01:14 PM

A few other names.

Keon Clark? He didn't play last year but had some decent years. Athletic. Only 30. Where is he now?

Jahidi White is available. 6'9, 290 lbs. 29 yrs old. Career 6.1 ppg, 6 rbs, 1.1 blks, 51% FG%, 53.8% FT% in 18.2 minutes per game.

Vitaly Potapenko is available.

Nobody else available I've heard of.

uberfan · 08-12-2005, 01:31 PM

I want whomever I can get for TAW. Our backup needs to be someone who can play starter-type minutes when Damp is injured or in early foul trouble.

Rasho or Blount. I know there are not the same type player, but either one can fill my criteria. Raef and outside possibility.

As to anyone else listed in this thread not named Diop, I prefer going with DJ Benga. I agree with the thought that Diop is only one more developmental guy--still he could be on the cusp on moving from project to propect.

Thespiralgoeson · 08-12-2005, 01:41 PM

TAW for Rasho was already turned down by the Mavs, so I doubt it will happen now. Cuban seems serious about cutting payroll, so I can't see Blount coming here unless Pierce comes with him. Even if Boston waives him, I dunno 2 mil would be enough to get him. If it is though, I'm all for it.

grndmstr_c · 08-12-2005, 01:49 PM

Just a thought...the new CBA guarantees that no team will be able to outbid the Mavs for DJ's services next year, no matter how well he plays. In light of that the Mavs may be looking at developing him in games a little more this year than they otherwise would have for fear of losing him, and therefore might feel more comfortable going with an cheap, unproven guy like Diop to round out the depth chart.

Lebanese_Fan · 08-12-2005, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: The Miles
If you want to upgrade Bradley, you go with Moore. If you want to go with pure talent, you go with Diop.

I think Moore is more talented than diop with more potential. I can't see diop chosen over moore unless it was for financial reasons.

SeriousSummer · 08-12-2005, 02:07 PM

Rasho for TAW looks good to me now. If you can't do that, then I'd try Diop. You can never have too many center projects--the chances of one working out are so low that you need a lot of them. Bring Booth back, as a last resort. Third time's the charm.

As for this year, be honest, when it matters Dirk will play center. Let's just hope that it doesn't matter too often.

MrCheerios · 08-12-2005, 03:23 PM

In the playoffs, dirk was the best defender on Yao and amare. Anyone brought in at this point won't change that fact. So spare the headache of going after these scrubs and just have DJ play backup C during the reg season, and dirk play backup C during the playoffs.

EricaLubarsky · 08-12-2005, 03:29 PM

Arranged in order of total minutes played last season. The number on the later players are less reliable based on too small a sample size. Stats are stated as per 48 minutes to show effectiveness across different amounts of playing time

Erick Damp 16.2points, 11 shot attempts, 55% FG, 15rebounds, 1.5assists, 0.45steals, 2.4blocks, 3.0turnovers (1609 min sample)
+5.8 roland rating, -4.9 oppPP100, -1.1 oppFG%

Mark Blount: 17.4points, 14 shot attempts, 53% FG, 8.9rebounds, 2.9assists, 0.7steals, 1.5blocks, 3.6turnovers (2130 min)
-3.0 roland rating -1.1 oppPP100, +0.9 oppFG%

Rasho Nest 11.0points, 11.6 shot attempts, 46% FG, 12.3rebounds, 1.9assists, 0.83steals, 3.15blocks, 2.0turnovers (1785 min)
+5.9 roland rating, -5.7 oppPP100, -2.6 oppFG%

Mikki Moore 16.1points, 11.7 shot attempts, 50% FG, 10.0rebounds, 1.9assists, 0.77steals, 1.3blocks, 2.6turnovers (1178 min)
-3.8 roland rating, +0.5 oppPP100, -0.7 oppFG%

Fran Elson 12.7points, 11.0 shot attempts, 47% FG, 10.3rebounds, 1.7assists, 1.7steals, 2.0blocks, 2.0turnovers (939 min)
-3.3 roland rating, +1.0 oppPP100, +2.6 oppFG%

Ervin Johns 8.5points, 6.3 shot attempts, 52% FG, 13.2rebounds, 0.7assists, 0.8steals, 1.5blocks, 2.1turnovers (410 min sample)
-10.5 roland rating, +2.5 oppPP100, no impact on opp FG%

Elden Cam 14.8points, 15.1 shot attempts, 31.7% FG, 11.4rebounds, 2.3assists, 0.98 steals, 0.86 blocks, 3.6turnovers (390 min)
-6.1 roland rating, +0.4 oppPP100, +1.4 oppFG% Detroit
-10.6 roland rating, +14.2 oppPP100, +5.1 oppFG% New Jersey

Desag Diop 6.3points, 11shot attempts, 29% FG, 10.9rebounds, 2.3assists, 1.3steals, 4.2blocks, 1.9turnovers (306 min)
-7.1 roland rating, -5.8 oppPP100, -4.7 oppFG%

Andrew De 8.8points, 8.8shot attempts, 44.4% FG, 9.8rebounds, 0assists, 1.9steals, 0.0blocks, 1.0turnovers (49 minutes)
-13.1 roland rating, +10.3 oppPP100, +7.3 oppFG%

Mavs414 · 08-12-2005, 05:19 PM

i would rather just try to have dj as the backup center

kappasigma · 08-12-2005, 05:26 PM

DJ can be a future backup center for a long time for the mavericks, maybe even play a good 7-10 years in the league. he needs the time, he's on the rise and can peak in the next 2-3 years as a solid and strong center. these other guys are done.

Quetzalcoatl · 08-12-2005, 07:15 PM

What we need is a backup center, nevermind who will be, but we need a backup center who takes the Nowitzki minutes as center. I don't want to see him playing at that position this year.

ocelot_ark · 08-12-2005, 07:58 PM

When comparing SPARES, and I'm sorry, that's what all of these guys are...you go with the guy who at least has the potential to develop into something serviceable. If Moore, at 30, isn't more than a journeyman by now...he never will be. Give me Diop, if these are my only choices. Just because we sign him doesn't mean that we have to play him. Let him, DJ, and Pavel battle it out during training camp for that backup C role. At the very least, Diop is a VERY good shot blocker. Who would you rather have guarding Tim Duncan or Shaq? Diop? Or Mikki Moore?

Second choice? Elson - just because him and KG are mortal enemies. Any enemy of KG is a friend of mine. But I guess he's not even a FA.

mikeinrowlett · 08-12-2005, 10:31 PM

I think this type of thread occurs every year before the season begins. At least since Mark Cuban has owned the team. There is nothing left.....our off season sucked.....all this before the off season is even over. A couple of years ago it was please sign some scrub that signed with Portland we never heard from again.

Relax people, the off season is not yet over.

Give Cuban a chance to pull something out. He always does and I am confident he will again.

I pick Moore by the way.

Bayliss · 08-12-2005, 11:21 PM

Quote:

I think this type of thread occurs every year before the season begins. At least since Mark Cuban has owned the team. There is nothing left.....our off season sucked.....all this before the off season is even over. A couple of years ago it was please sign some scrub that signed with Portland we never heard from again.

How dare you talk about Vladimir Stepania like that. Had the Mavs signed him they would be looking at their first championship. He was gold, Jerry. Gold.

Mavs4skin · 08-12-2005, 11:40 PM

I would rather give the backup minutes to DJ. He has too much talent to be relegated to towel waver again this year. None of those guys are better IMO.

Dirkenstien · 08-12-2005, 11:49 PM

Booth plays good D and can slow down Amare.

Rasho wouldn't be bad to have as a backup to Damp...I'm all for making that trade now; I just hope we haven't burned any bridges.

I'd like to see DJ develop, however we must remember that this team is competing for a championship and cannot rely on a foul proned project to consistently step it up as our 2nd string center.

IMO:
1) Booth
2)Rasho