Iverson is the man

[endtroducing]

60 points. discuss.

[twelli]

That's amazing, no matter how you look at it. I think the last guy who scored 60 was Shaq on his birthday when they fed him the ball all the time. I you like him or not, Iverson is a heck of a player... and he's soooo small.....

[endtroducing]

I have more respect for AI than any other player in the league...busts his ass EVERY night, even if it's Atlanta or a junior high team from West Virginia...the guy is a machine.

[mavs413]

I was just going through today's box scores and I saw that Francis almost had a triple double with 32-13-8, damn good. Then, I scrolled down and saw Iverson's 60! 24 Made Freet Throws! Amazing stuff! I wish I would've watched it on league pass.

Twelli, the last player to get 60 was TMac, late in the season last year.

[V2M]

AI is incredible. He's gonna' runaway with the scoring title and if Philly wins the division, he may even get a strong consideration for the MVP title.

[4cwebb]

60 points on 36 shots is pretty solid. And 27 free throws in one game is darn near amazing...

[FINtastic]

Not to mention he threw in 6 dimes and 5 steals. Pretty impressive night from the little guy.

[GP]

The more I think about this the more I think this 60 point game is a microcosm of what is wrong with AI's career. This guy has just about the most talent of any ballplayer I've ever seen. He is lightening quick, tenacious, can beat anyone off the dribble, and can pass as well as anyone. When he came out of college I absolutely thought he was going to be one of the greatest point guards in the history of the NBA but what happened? He thinks he is a 2 guard.

I really believe that he could have easily averaged 14-15 assists a game but instead he beats his man off the dribble, penetrates runs into a second and even third defender and then shoots wild shots. He also gets to the rim frequently and misses shots that are good shots. This guy can get a layup at any time against anybody. With his talent we should be comparing him to the great point guards of all time like Stockton and Johnson. The year they made it to the finals he played somewhat under control and made some very average teammates look good (anyone remember Matt Geiger).

[dirno2000]

When he came out of college I absolutely thought he was going to be one of the greatest point guards in the history of the NBA but what happened? He thinks he is a 2 guard.

He played the same way in college...he's always been a scorer that just happens to be 6'1 wheras Stockton came into the league as one of college basketball's top assists men.

The year Philly went to the finals (and Iverson won the MVP) he scored a couple of more points, but none of his other stats were much different than they've been any other season. They simply had the best defensive team in the league. Matt Gieger wasn't a huge player in that team becaue they traded for Deke that year...actually that was his final year as a good basketball player...was never the same after Shaq destroyed him in the finals.

[MavKikiNYC]

Is Iverson better than Marbury?

[V2M]

Without a doubt.

[seal614]

nice to see a little respect for AI

[FilthyFinMavs]

Now who was saying AI isn't a top 10 player in this league? You gotta remember this guy is listed as 6 foot and I think even that's questionable. What he does night in and night out is amazing. The only thing stopping him from being a top 5 player in this league is scoring which isn't effecient most nights.

[seal614]

yeah the topic isn't too far down, I was pushing for AI top 10... a few others were reminding me how much better Steve Francis is.

- Brian

[poohrichardson]

Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
Is Iverson better than Marbury?

Yes.... and it's not even close. Throw the numbers out the window and realize: AI makes his team mates better (they're the least talented team in the division and still competing every night) whereas Stephon maybe makes his team mates WORSE.. hell, I could average 8 apg if the only play I ran was the pick and roll..

[MavKikiNYC]

Duncan
Shaq
Yao
Dirk
Kirilenko
Ginoblie
Garnett
Kobe
TMc
Lebron
Kidd

There's 11 players I'd take before I'd take Iverson. I could probably come up with 10 more.

But 60 points is a hot performance.

[seal614]

Yao... Ginobili?

I mean, an argument can definitely be made --> I'd be on the other side.

The rest I give you hands down ~9

I think most people would take AI over Marbury...

Marbury really does manage to average 9apg and make his team worse. How he does this is beyond me.

- Brian

[dirno2000]

I'd take Iverson over but I don't know that Marburry makes his teammates worse...most of those guys just aren't very good.

By the same token, I don't think Iverson makes his teammates better. That statement gets tossed around but it rarely applies. Do the bit players on the 76ers play at a higher level with AI on the court? If so I haven't seen it. A lot of times he stifles their abilities. In our last two losses to Philly, we’ve seen guys step up in ways they can’t with AI on the court because he demands the ball. What he does is make the team better because he's just so explosive on offense and disruptive on defense.

There are only a handful of players, Nash and Kidd come to mind, who truly make their teammates better.

[EricaLubarsky]

Kirilenko, Duncan...they tend to make their teammates much better. And there are guys like Shaq that anchor defenses and make openings for others.

[dirno2000]

Duncan and Shaq definitely make their teammates better. Not sure about AK…he's not a great passer and he doesn't demand the double team. If he does have that ability he may want to start using it.

[seal614]

good point Dirno, the Jazz could use everything AK's got.

[EricaLubarsky]

AK has an oncourt/offcourt differential in opp. FG% of nearly 6% . That is insane.

He may be only a Josh Howard on offense but he makes his whole team better on the defensive side.

[chumdawg]

I think Iverson may have the biggest heart among all NBA players.

[endtroducing]

dissing a guy who drops 60. insane.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
Duncan
Shaq
Yao
Dirk
Kirilenko
Ginoblie
Garnett
Kobe
TMc
Lebron
Kidd

There's 11 players I'd take before I'd take Iverson. I could probably come up with 10 more.

But 60 points is a hot performance.

When you say you'd take those players over AI that just means those players are the ones you like better right? You aren't suggesting that Ginobilli, Yao and Kirilenko are all better players than AI are you? I'd take Josh Howard over AI myself but he's still a top 10 talent.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally posted by: endtroducing
dissing a guy who drops 60. insane.

where is the diss, again?

[rakesh.s]

Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
Duncan
Shaq
Yao
Dirk
Kirilenko
Ginoblie
Garnett
Kobe
TMc
Lebron
Kidd

There's 11 players I'd take before I'd take Iverson. I could probably come up with 10 more.

But 60 points is a hot performance.

I made the statement that iverson isn't a top 10 player and immediately the homers came out in full force and started creaming their pants. He has 3 or 4 games like this every year and immediately, he is the greatest player in the league..give me a break.

The only reason they won the game is because he scored 60..check the box score..i believe he had more than half the team's points..when you account for that % of your team's points, you're not making anybody better..it's a great individual performance that got you one game.

I'd leave Yao and Ginobilli off that list...I'll take Ray Allen and Amare instead..Gilbert Arenas is slowly moving up the list also..He gets no respect because he plays for Washington..I hate Chris Webber but I have to give him some respect..He might still be a top 10 player with 4 triple doubles in 5 games. Kirilenko is arguable but the Jazz were unstoppable early on in the season with Kirilenko averaging 5 bpg. However, the difference between Kirilenko and Iverson is that Kirilenko is more likely to change a game with his defense than Iverson is with his 35% shooting.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: rakesh.s

I made the statement that iverson isn't a top 10 player and immediately the homers came out in full force and started creaming their pants. He has 3 or 4 games like this every year and immediately, he is the greatest player in the league..give me a break.

The only reason they won the game is because he scored 60..check the box score..i believe he had more than half the team's points..when you account for that % of your team's points, you're not making anybody better..it's a great individual performance that got you one game.

I'd leave Yao and Ginobilli off that list...I'll take Ray Allen and Amare instead..Gilbert Arenas is slowly moving up the list also..He gets no respect because he plays for Washington..I hate Chris Webber but I have to give him some respect..He might still be a top 10 player with 4 triple doubles in 5 games. Kirilenko is arguable but the Jazz were unstoppable early on in the season with Kirilenko averaging 5 bpg. However, the difference between Kirilenko and Iverson is that Kirilenko is more likely to change a game with his defense than Iverson is with his 35% shooting.

3 or 4 games? Where have you been? He's done this more than 3 or 4 times this season.

LMAO@ Giving CWebb respect for achieving triple doubles but not AI for scoring 50+ more than any other player this year. Walker achieved back to back triple doubles last season. Let's slip him in there also.



BTW, AI shoots 42% from the field. Not 35%.

[rakesh.s]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

3 or 4 games? Where have you been? He's done this more than 3 or 4 times this season.

LMAO@ Giving CWebb respect for achieving triple doubles but not AI for scoring 50+ more than any other player this year. Walker achieved back to back triple doubles last season. Let's slip him in there also.



BTW, AI shoots 42% from the field. Not 35%.

1. Feb 12 ORL W 112-99 1 42 17 36 47.2 2 5 40.0 24 27 88.9 1 3 4 6 3 5 1 1 60
2. Dec 20 UTH L 101-103 1 46 18 31 58.1 4 6 66.7 11 17 64.7 0 1 1 6 7 7 0 6 51
3. Dec 18 @ MIL W 116-97 1 40 17 29 58.6 4 7 57.1 16 21 76.2 2 6 8 5 3 2 0 0 54

I count..let me see..1,2..3

Webber 21,10,5.5 on 45% shooting with 4 triple doubles in 5 games..speaks for itself..Who else is putting up 4 triple doubles in 5 games??

I didn't bring walker up..and i'm not talking about last season

Scoring != greatness

making teammates better = greatness

iverson is shooting 41.5%..we'll see what he finishes at...he is more likely to give you a 9-27 shooting night than he is a 11-20 night

Out of 45 games played, he shoots 45% plus in 15 games...the other 30 are well below..If that isn't a volume shooter I don't know what is.

[dirno2000]

Iverson at the half...31 points, 6 assists

[V2M]

41.5% shooting with 10.7FTA (8.8FTM) is not bad at all. To add to his 29.7pts/game, he's also averaging 7.6 assists. If you take AI out and put in Nash or Kidd, I doubt if they could average 7.6 assists on that team.

AI last year wasn't great, may be. But this year, I can't see how people don't like what he's doing. He's as much an MVP as Nash, Dirk or TD.

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

When you say you'd take those players over AI that just means those players are the ones you like better right? You aren't suggesting that Ginobilli, Yao and Kirilenko are all better players than AI are you? I'd take Josh Howard over AI myself but he's still a top 10 talent.

I'd take every one of those players over Iverson. And Josh Howard too. Yes, because I like their games better than Iverson's, but also because I believe they're better players to build and/or anchor a team around.

If I started looking at contracts and projected longevity, then I have no doubt there are at least 10 more players I'd take before Iverson.

He's a great indiviual talent, but definitely not a player I'd want to build or anchor a team around.

[seal614]

no kidding mavkiki he is on his way out of his prime...

there was on real diss on AI. At least you can say he is "arguably" top 10. Some people said yes, some no.

Rakesh if you want to count only his 50+ as noteworthy then sure 3-4 and he "blows" the rest of the year. btw, who called him the "greatest player in the league" ?? heart... yeah I might give him that but that's another totally arbitrary thing to evaluate.

AI has had plenty of double double nights 35 and 10 etc...

You can also argue that he does or does not make his teammates better and beyond assists numbers this is the most wishy-washy thing to evaluate I have ever seen.

Marbury "making his teammates worse" is obviously FALSE but sometimes I don't understand the guy regardless of his impressive stats.

Whoever is taking Josh Howard over AI... fine I guess on UPSIDE but otherwise... who's the "homer" ??

I'm gonna disagree with you on AI's ability to change a game. AI can take over a game by HIMSELF with the best of them. And with Aaron McKie running with him I think it's appropriate a whole lot of the time.

I think Kidd and Nash could average more assists on the sixers, but I don't think either of them are half the scorer Iverson is ~ duh. And we all know that is his FORTE, why knock him for it? Do we give KG shit for doing EVERYTHING on his team? Should he "leave some" rebounds or assists or even point for the others? It's pretty stupid to knock somebody just because they do something 10x better than the rest of their team combined.

Iverson is a volume shooter. Wow you just let us in on a big secret Rakesh.

I guess I have to change what I said. Instead of "I'd take..." swap that for "better than" does that help?

- Brian

[edit] the fact that you took Kobe on your list speaks volumes

[dirno2000]

You can also argue that he does or does not make his teammates better and beyond assists numbers this is the most wishy-washy thing to evaluate I have ever seen.

It can’t be measured with stats, but if you watch enough basketball you kind of get a feel for players who make their teammates better. Let me ask you this: have you ever been watching a game and said, “ya know, that guy would really be good if he were playing with Allen Iverson”? Like I said the phrase “he make players around him better” is one of the most overused in basketball but it’s clear that a few guys do. They’re guys who can 1) Draw an inordinate amount of attention which opens the court for everyone else (Shaq, Duncan) or 2) Have the ability to break down a defense AND think pass 1st (Nash, Kidd). It’s not a coincidence that McDyess became a star in everyone’s eyes while playing with Kidd…same for Kenyon Martin. It’s arbitrary to say that Nash is making Amare and Marion better, but do you want to argue otherwise?

I love AI and I’ve defended him on this board many times, but I’m glad he’s the centerpiece of your team as opposed to mine. He’s a great scorer, but it’s a lot of pressure to put on a guy of his physical stature to say “you need to give us 30 a night to win”. So what happens…he starts to break down and you don’t have another reliable no. 2 scorer. AI dominates the ball so much that I don’t think you can bring another serious offensive threat and make it work. That ‘s why the year they went to the finals was the perfect storm…the ideal Iverson team: a bunch of players around him that were content to play defense and rebound while Al got his 30. They were so good defensively they could even weather his 6-28 nights. The problem is there’s a finite number of players that would put up with that…most of the ones that will suck and are just happy to be in the league. Because of this, the Sixers will never contend, even in a weaker conference.

AI’s Achilles heel his that his greatness infringes on the players around him.

[seal614]

dirno, I know exactly what you mean from watching countless nba games. BUT would I take what I've seen/concluded and discuss it here with certain others? Nope, some argue just to argue. That's fine, that's why I try to keep it pretty straight forward.

AI's other "2nd option" players have been mediocre at best. Honestly, pick one that you'd like to pair with Dirk and then fill with role players. Stack you can make an argument... BUT

Van Horn
Big Dog

I mean come on. You're right that the finals year was EXACTLY what AI needs. But who's to knock the fact that a great defensive team complements AI?? Somebody else might argue that AI finally had SOMEBODY to play with (Deke) and went deep into the playoffs. In the current setup the sixers will NOT contend for a title, no kidding. Clearly every team would like to be considered a "contender" but things don't always play out, I wouldn't rip a single player because of this.

Not sure what you think of Billy King, I know what I think. We have really yet to see AI play with another current "star" that doesn't have an attitude problem. Big Dog - Stack. At least you use the word "greatness" and Iverson's name in the same sentence.

Clearly his size is an issue, for better and for worse. Nash and Kidd (I think) are extremely special players and it's nice to see Nash get his credit finally. BUT, I think it's unfair to compare a scorer to these guys. Then again, the only thing anybody cares about around here is a pass-first point gaurd. In that case, yeah pretty much 99% of the league is trash. Everybody has a role. Does Iverson not fill his and then some? Oh yeah btw, Hall of Fame... what do you guys think?

- Brian

[edit] not that this means anything about AI's career but it's kind of funny that this argument takes place on the night that he makes the pass for the game winning bucket by... Marc Jackson

[dirno2000]

AI's other "2nd option" players have been mediocre at best. Honestly, pick one that you'd like to pair with Dirk and then fill with role players. Stack you can make an argument... BUT

Van Horn
Big Dog

Don’t’ forget Kukoc who was an 18 point 5 assist guy before going to Philly. Iverson was so happy to have him that he came to the press conference. Big dog is kind of a head case, but he’s a head case that can fill it up. He got fewer shots last year with AI than he was getting with Cassell and Ray Allen. It would have been interesting to see what Iverson and Hughes could have done together. I could be wrong, but I can’t imagine a player with 18-20 ppg capabilities would want to play with Iverson because, while it pretty simplistic, scorers like to shoot.

You're right that the finals year was EXACTLY what AI needs. But who's to knock the fact that a great defensive team complements AI?

I’m not knocking it…just saying that it’s hard to assemble a team of guys who will be content to sell out on defense and rebound every night without worrying about touches. Plus a team like that isn’t well equipped to withstand his injuries which will probably be coming with more frequency as he ages.

Not sure what you think of Billy King

The Greg Buckner and Kenny Thomas contracts tell me all I need to know.

At least you use the word "greatness"

I like the player…I’m just not sure his game is such that any series of moves will put Philly back in contention. Hopefully they can get someone else in there and prove me wrong because I’d love to see him make another playoff run.

[rakesh.s]

Originally posted by: seal614


[edit] the fact that you took Kobe on your list speaks volumes

Last time I checked, Kobe had his team in the 8th spot in what conference..oh yeah, the WEST

Guys like Marc Jackson and Kenny Thomas aren't exactly pushovers...and dalembert isn't adonal foyle..He has a decent set of big men and swingmen to complement him, so if he can't make them better then whose fault is it??

Apparently the volume shooter thing was a secret to folks like you who can't see that he shoots 35% or less on most nights.

If I'm starting a team today, give me kobe over iverson..I would never, EVER build my team around a volume shooter

[seal614]

Kobe is now a volume shooter in case you didn't realize. In fact, Kobe scores LESS (27) on a LOWER % (40). He also averages less assists and less steals in the same minutes.

If you want to go by standings then (although utter bs) the sixers are in 3rd? I mean I think it's garbage but they are where they are. Marc Jackson can score on almost anybody down low, but plays no D. Kenny Thomas is streaky.

I hope the sixers hold onto dalembert and iguodala as both guys will be something to see in the future. I can't help but think that Iverson is at least helping Sammy along. If not, then the 15 lobs he sends Sammy's way everynight are something else. Ditto Iguodala but it's tough to judge his game because he holds SO much back to stay on the floor.

I mean we have a starter that Jersey pretty much gave us for pennies. Sure he's turning into a great player, but how can he do that with AI on the court? ~ Korver.

He is a volume shooter but breaking down good nights vs. bad pretty much shows that you are looking for something to whine about. He shoots 42%. While low, it's not 35 as much as you'd like it to be.

Kobe shoots 15% on 12% of his nights; who cares.

- Brian

[DubOverdose]

AI now wants out of Philly supposedly! He is tired of rebuilding and wants to have a shot at a championship.

[rakesh.s]

Originally posted by: seal614
Kobe is now a volume shooter in case you didn't realize. In fact, Kobe scores LESS (27) on a LOWER % (40). He also averages less assists and less steals in the same minutes.

If you want to go by standings then (although utter bs) the sixers are in 3rd? I mean I think it's garbage but they are where they are. Marc Jackson can score on almost anybody down low, but plays no D. Kenny Thomas is streaky.

I hope the sixers hold onto dalembert and iguodala as both guys will be something to see in the future. I can't help but think that Iverson is at least helping Sammy along. If not, then the 15 lobs he sends Sammy's way everynight are something else. Ditto Iguodala but it's tough to judge his game because he holds SO much back to stay on the floor.

I mean we have a starter that Jersey pretty much gave us for pennies. Sure he's turning into a great player, but how can he do that with AI on the court? ~ Korver.

He is a volume shooter but breaking down good nights vs. bad pretty much shows that you are looking for something to whine about. He shoots 42%. While low, it's not 35 as much as you'd like it to be.

Kobe shoots 15% on 12% of his nights; who cares.

- Brian

the point being that kobe in the west(a tougher conference in case you didn't notice) is making his teammates better.

did anyone think the lakers were even going to sniff the 8th spot?

Like i said earlier, Iverson has good enough players to have a decent record in the east..and that isn't happening..they're hovering around .500 and Boston could win that division the way they're playing, which means that sixers might not even make the playoffs

Dalembert gets 15 lobs?? I guess he can't catch because he's averaging 7 ppg..so no, iverson isn't really "helping sammy along"

I'm not whining about anything..I'm stating why i don't think Iverson is as great as your homer-ism makes him out to be..It seems like you can't back up the trash you've been spewing