California lawmaker proposes no-spanking law

[TheBlueVan]

LOS ANGELES (AFP) - A California lawmaker says she has proposed a law that would make spanking a small child a crime to be punished by jail time or a fine.
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The bill, backed by Democrat Sally Lieber of San Francisco, a member of the state legislature, would outlaw spanking children three years old or younger and carry a possible penalty of jail time or a 1,000-dollar fine.

"I think it's pretty hard to argue you need to beat a child three years old or younger," said Lieber, who plans to introduce the bill next week.

The bill, which was still being drafted, would make the crime a misdemeanor and be written to ban "any striking of a child, any corporal punishment, smacking, hitting, punching, any of that," Lieber said.

The bill will likely pit those who advocate protecting children at all costs against lawmakers wary of government intervention creating a possible meddlesome "nanny state."

"Where do you stop?" said Republican Chuck Devore. "At what point are we going to say we should pass a bill that every parent has to read a minimum of 30 minutes every night to their child? This is right along those same lines."

California Governor
Arnold Schwarzenegger, who has the authority to veto the bill if it is adopted, has so far avoided endorsing or rejecting the idea.

In an interview with the San Jose Mercury News, which first reported the proposal this week, the film-star-turned-politician said he was "smacked about everything" during his childhood in Austria.

"That was the way Austria worked," he told the newspaper. "You know, I think it maybe had something to do with after the war. People were maybe more angry and more frustrated, you know, having lost the war or whatever else."

The governor said he understood the desire to "get rid of the physical, the brutal behavior that some parents have."

And he added that he and his wife, Maria Shriver, have never hit their four children. "Absolutely not," he said.

[Nemesis]

Most people my age were probably spanked, beaten, whipped, lashed, etc.. by their Dad or Mom for punishment at a certain degree of offense. Hell, if I got it at school, I could count on another one, no questions asked to the teacher when I got home. It was just the way things were then. Maybe, it effected my self-esteem, maybe I would have been more well adjusted now if I was put in time out or just looked at with pure disappointment. Who really is normal that you know? Regardless, I do know I won't be laying a hand on my child. We know too much about the possible effects it may cause in the development of a child.

[rmacomic]

My parents spanked me, but it backfired. By age six I was into heavy bondage. My teachers would paddle me, and I would say "Thank you Mistress may I have another." They only ever spanked me once. Wonder why?

[TheBlueVan]

haha, i got spanked a lot

[nashtymavsfan13]

I was spanked growing when I was younger, but not very severly. I don't think it had any negative effects on me. I hate the argument that "it teaches kids violence" because violent video games are much worse. The other argument is you lose trust for your parents, but I actually think it helps teach you right and wrong, obedience, and respect for your parents. I have no problem with it for kids about 2-10 and I think this law is pretty stupid.

[TheBlueVan]

yeah there was nothing wrong w/ me being spanked. i think the key for me was my parents never did it when angry, and i always knew they loved me. in that context, i see nothing wrong with spanking. physical punishment can turn nasty when tempers are involved though

this law is ridiculous, if that lady represented me, id go spank my kids on her lawn

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by TheBlueVan

yeah there was nothing wrong w/ me being spanked. i think the key for me was my parents never did it when angry, and i always knew they loved me. in that context, i see nothing wrong with spanking. physical punishment can turn nasty when tempers are involved though

Yeah, it's important for them to do it consistently when there is a legit reason and to make sure the kids still realize they love them and are just trying to protect them and teach them obedience. When tempers are involved though, you are right, it can turn nasty. That's why I think it's best to just spank kids from ages 2 to 10 because then they don't really have a huge temper and don't mouth off to the parents as much as long as they are being raised correctly.

Originally Posted by TheBlueVan

this law is ridiculous, if that lady represented me, id go spank my kids on her lawn

Lol! Brilliant

[Nemesis]

Come on, you guys are smarter than that. Spank your kids on someone's lawn? Hopefully, you are kidding.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Come on, you guys are smarter than that. Spank your kids on someone's lawn? Hopefully, you are kidding.

I definetly think he is, and I just found it funny, I never said it'd be a thing I'd do.

[TheBlueVan]

yeah, that was a joke, lol. did you know in sweden its illegal to hit your children, even if its spanking. some friends of our lived over their and the neighbors called the cops when the guy spanked his kid for stealing something

[FINtastic]

That's why I think it's best to just spank kids from ages 2 to 10 because then they don't really have a huge temper and don't mouth off to the parents

We must not hang out with the same 2-10 year old kids

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

We must not hang out with the same 2-10 year old kids

I don't know about that, look at how many of them hang out on this board

[Drbio]

Spare the rod spoil the child.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

We must not hang out with the same 2-10 year old kids

Haha, well the ones I've seen for the most part don't have real bad tempers to the point where "tempers would be involved" like BlueVan was saying.

[FINtastic]

I just know I used to talk back a lot as a child when I was getting punished. And my sister was about 10x worse. Her blowups are legendary around our house.

[TheBlueVan]

no no, i meant the PARENT'S tempers. thats when things get bad, when parent's lose their cool. kids...theyre kids, i mean c'mon

[Five-ofan]

I got beaten like red headed rented mule step child when i was little. JK. I did get spankings though and they were painful. I also had the same rule about spankings at school and then at home. My kids are getting spankings when they do something wrong too. Did spankings hurt? Yes. Did they make me mad at my parents? Yes. Did they generally make me not do whatever I had done that led to the spankings again? Pretty much no I didnt do it again.

[Nemesis]

You can accomplish the same effect on children w/o physical harm, IMO.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

You can accomplish the same effect on children w/o physical harm, IMO.

Got any? Sometimes my kiddo's needed and asked for a spanking, they got it.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by TheBlueVan

no no, i meant the PARENT'S tempers. thats when things get bad, when parent's lose their cool. kids...theyre kids, i mean c'mon

Oh, I thought you meant both the parents and the kids.

[TheBlueVan]

ok, i know FOR A FACT that spanking was the only way to keep me from doing some of the stuff i did. i'll spank my kids, but only if its really really necessary

[Five-ofan]

yeah, grounding or time out or stern looks just dont have the same effect as a spanking does.

[TheBlueVan]

another thing, back when spanking was acceptable/expected, were people worse or angrier? i doesnt really seem so

americans are growing up to be wusses

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

yeah, grounding or time out or stern looks just don't have the same effect as a spanking does.

Of course! But, spanking works short-term and will cause shame to the child long-term. An alternative I can suggest (and you can do your own research) is discipline through positive reinforcement. All those you listed above are not positive reinforcement. Some of those may be appropriate, but putting fear in a child through physical harm will only make the child scared to do whatever they got spanked for-->in front of you.

I was punished just like you. It doesn't make it right.

I think I might have been lucky, my Dad didn't spank me until he had calmed down. Most aren't that lucky. They get spanked at the height of frustration.. I can't even bare the thought of that.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by TheBlueVan

another thing, back when spanking was acceptable/expected, were people worse or angrier? i doesnt really seem so

americans are growing up to be wusses

Ok, I know you aren't kidding here. So, because americans don't think beating their children is acceptable practice, we are "wusses"? Did you think about that before you wrote it? Do you think that kids that have been whipped are tougher than kids who aren't? What is your reasoning here.

[Five-ofan]

umm my parents spanked me when they were pissed and i honestly think im a better person for it(not so much the when they were pissed part but the spanking in general part) I dont think there is a right or a wrong answer to this. I do also think that there is a time when it needs to stop. Past the age of 12 its not really a viable option.

edit- also spanking doesnt equal beating and you know it. To equate the two is assinine and foolish.

[Nemesis]

There is most definitely a right answer. There is no fence to stand on here.

[rmacomic]

I say we take this issue to the streets. Next time you see someone's kid acting up, and the parents ignoring it. Spank the brat, then spank the parent.

[Drbio]

Spank 'em. It works. Although I see no need to spank someone under the age of 3. That can be reasonably argued.

[u2sarajevo]

Yeah... spanking would only work if the child knew and understood why they were getting that punishment. I don't really have an issue with this law.

I don't spank my children. I can't imagine (don't want to imagine) what they would have to do to warrant a spanking.... In other words I'm not opposed to it, but it would have to be an extreme case.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Who really is normal that you know? Regardless, I do know I won't be ...

heh heh. This made me laugh. Most people are normal. By definition.

I hate the argument that spanking doesn't work with a 2 year old because they won't know what they are getting spanked for. Everyone uses basic reinforcement principles with a 2 year old. 2 year olds aren't stupid. Heck, if reward and punishment work with sea slugs, why not a 2 year old?

I also hate the argument that spanking causes long term shame. Sticking someone in a corner without their PS3 will cause long term shame if everyone in society says that that's abusive. And it will cause a heck of a lot more problems than shame if someday kids are allowed to call the cops when their parents stick them in a corner without their PS3.

And I hate the argument that it teaches violence. Kids know the difference between the role of a parent and the role of a child (at least they should if we continue to make those distinctions part of their lives). Kids aren't stupid. Just because they see a parent doing something doesn't mean they'll want to do it later. How many teenagers put on a suit and tie, grab a briefcase, and drive off to work because they saw Daddy do it every day while they were younger? How many kids vacuum the living room, reshingle the roof, or mow the lawn just because they see their parents do chores? And those are things we'd want our kids to do. THose are things we encourage kids to do.

The worst part of the law is that it takes parenting out of the parents hands. Beating/abuse/etc. is already against the law. Laws like the one proposed are not about leaving bruises or drawing blood, or causing long term shame. Things like that are already illegal. Under the proposed law, would any swat on the butt or a slap on the wrist be illegal? Some people would like to make that a matter of putting the kids in foster care, and the parents in jail, and letting a court judge decide. This is about spanking, and is part of an agenda to outlaw spanking in all situations, with kids of any age.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

The worst part of the law is that it takes parenting out of the parents hands. Beating/abuse/etc. is already against the law. Laws like the one proposed are not about leaving bruises or drawing blood, or causing long term shame. Things like that are already illegal. Under the proposed law, would any swat on the butt or a slap on the wrist be illegal? Some people would like to make that a matter of putting the kids in foster care, and the parents in jail, and letting a court judge decide. This is about spanking, and is part of an agenda to outlaw spanking in all situations, with kids of any age.

absolutely. the law is extending the role of the state too far into parenting.

never spanked my kids. they did some things that could have resulted in spanking, but I'm against it. hard to convince me that the message the kid gets- violence is the solution to the issue- isn't absorbed by the child.

the kids behavior can be corrected without it.

[TheBlueVan]

there is a WORLD of difference between beating and spanking. i would never ever ever beat my kids, but if necessary, i would spank them. it all depends on the attitude the parent has and how they go about disciplining the child.

[TheBlueVan]

perhaps a lot of behavior can be corrected without it. my parents used it as a last resort, not a first impulse

like i said, my sisters NEVER got spanked, they didnt habitually act up the way i did

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

absolutely. the law is extending the role of the state too far into parenting.

never spanked my kids. they did some things that could have resulted in spanking, but I'm against it. hard to convince me that the message the kid gets- violence is the solution to the issue- isn't absorbed by the child.

the kids behavior can be corrected without it.

Working in the public school system at both high and low social economic districts, I learned that parents in part expect teachers to raise their kids. So maybe the line is blurred here.

[alexamenos]

California lawmaker proposes no-spanking law

oh...no spanking kids....i thought it meant something else.

nevermind

[Pirate]

Is such a law constitutional? I'm not convinced it is. You are telling parents how to raise their kids.

Beatings and abuse are already illegal. To say that you have a need to ban spankings, because you dont want kids to get abused, is a devious lie. Let me raise my kids and get your nose out of my home, big brother.

If kids are old enough to understand right and wrong and what they are being told to do, spankings can at times make sense. When my son was 2, he was playing with the electric socket. He knew he was told not to do it. He did it anyhow, until his hand got swatted a couple times. Then he promptly decided he needed to stop. Should I have used a less immediately persuasive method? In that case, I dont think so. But that was a spank, on the hand. Illegal, says this busybody of a legislator.

And once you get this law on the books, it will inevitably become onerous to deal with for a parent trying to do the right thing. The burden (legal and financial) shifts onto the parent to prove to prying (but now legally empowered) outsiders that they are being perfect parents. The state ends up second guessing everything.

Leave parents alone and trust them. Of all the decision makers in the world, its the parents, who love those kids, that are most likely to make the wisest decisions - but second guessing butt-inskys will always think they know better. Go away.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by Pirate

Is such a law constitutional? I'm not convinced it is. You are telling parents how to raise their kids.

I don't think it is.

Beatings and abuse are already illegal. To say that you have a need to ban spankings, because you dont want kids to get abused, is a devious lie. Let me raise my kids and get your nose out of my home, big brother.

Exactly. Raising the child is the province, right and responsibility of the parent, NOT the government. We already have limitations that protect the children from physical or mental abuse. Telling me what methods of discipline are acceptable is another thing entirely.

Leave parents alone and trust them. Of all the decision makers in the world, its the parents, who love those kids, that are most likely to make the wisest decisions - but second guessing butt-inskys will always think they know better. Go away.

Spot on. This all comes back to some legislator who thinks he knows better than the parents do about how to raise their kids. I'm sorry, but it's none of his business, and as a parent I am a heck of a lot more concerned about my child's welfare than anybody else (except God) ever will be.