Kidd Trade: Like it or not?

[sike]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I doubt you're in the minority now. Based on what I've been reading my guess is that if this poll was re-posted the results would shift. Seems like a lot of posters who were originally against it have talked themselves into it.

lets hear your own thoughts, dirno.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

You know...I applaud the Mavericks for doing something. I really do. I think Mark Cuban really believes that he's doing is the right thing, and I think he lost a lot of sleep over it. I think he cares infinitely more than even we do.

But I'm going to tell everyone why I don't like the trade, and it has nothing to do with X's and O's. It's just my opinion. And I promise that 99% of you will disagree.

The Mavericks are not going to win a championship. It is too late. It is too late with this group, with Dirk, Josh and Avery, and maybe Cuban. When You look at what has happened in the last 2 seasons, and you can throw 2003 in there as well if you're obsessed with fat alcoholic guys who only coach one side of the ball, it just isn't going to happen.

Up 2 games to none. 6 to play in the game 3, up 13. That was it. That was their chance. That is their legacy. Do you REALLY think...REALLY think and feel in your heart that the Mavericks can win this year or next year? Because that's it, that's all they've got, and then this thing is going to get blown to hell.

San Antonio, L.A, New Orleans, Denver, Utah, Golden State, Phoenix, Houston....The mavericks could easily, EASILY lose to these teams in the playoffs, and no one would think it strange this season. Oh and once you get past that, you have to deal with Detroit, or Boston, or Orlando.

This move is too late. It's too hard now, and it's not going to get easier next year either.

The odds are so greatly stacked against it, that I would rather have a team that wins 50 games a season for the next 6 years, than a team that just gets disappointed because they decided to REALLY go for it at the exact same time that aging Phoenix, and San Antonio are going to make their last legit pushes at this thing. And then you have at least 3 good years of Pao and Kobe....and watch out for Portland. Utah isn't going anywhere. And oh yeah, KG is going to claim at least one or two coming up here.

That's why I don't like the deal. I already know that the Mavs will not win a ring. But what I don't know, is can they continue to entertain me? With Devin Harris and those 2 picks, they were much more likely to do that. But now, they're doomed to be just good enough in 3 years that they start a string of seasons that have them finishing in the 6,7,8,9 spot every year...not being able to draft well, and not being able to contend.....with no rings to show for it, and an owner that has grown tired of spending money and not getting anything out of it. (Hicks+Arod, ftw)

So why do I watch if I know they won't win a ring? Because I love basketball, and I love the Mavs. I love Dirk and Josh and Cuban, and I know now that the journey is the fun part for me, not the end.

This trade is a divide in the question they've been asking on the radio recently about the Miami Heat: Would you rather win a ring, and then sniff 15 wins for a long time after that? Or would you rather your team be perpetually entertaining and competitive with no ring?

I guess I know what side of the divide I'm on now.

I just don't want to hear any of you complaining in 2011; I promise to keep my mouth shut.

Wow dude...just...wow.

I'm not a fan of the trade for the completely opposite reason. I think we were good enough to win the title with Devin.

There is ZERO reason to think that this Mavs team doesn't have as good a chance as anyone in basketball to win a title in the next two seasons, especially after this trade.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Wow dude...just...wow.

I'm not a fan of the trade for the completely opposite reason. I think we were good enough to win the title with Devin.

There is ZERO reason to think that this Mavs team doesn't have as good a chance as anyone in basketball to win a title in the next two seasons, especially after this trade.

he is just down...he'll come out of it with a little time...

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Does that include you? I don't think I've seen you post your overall thoughts, just pieces here and there.

I think it does include me. I voted no when the poll was originally posted and from a purely basketball perspective I’m still against it. Like you I hope to be proven wrong as Jason Kidd runs all over the floor and getting Josh and Dirk easy looks. But to be honest I’m still not convinced that Kidd makes Dirks life that much easier. The one exception should be when he’s posting up smaller players. He’s usually open for a couple of seconds before getting pushed out of the lane and right now we don’t have anyone who can get him the ball in that window. By the time he get it he still has his back to the basket but he’s 15 feet away.

I absolutely hate the idea of admitting that Devin isn’t going to be the all-star who will allow us to remain a contender as Dirk declines. Like you, I felt a tinge of sadness when I heard that he was on a plane to N.J. that morning (as gay as that sounds).

The thing that’s swaying me is just the general thought that this team needed to be shaken up. My feeling after last season was that something has to change even if it’s just for the sake of change. When you lose the way we did you can’t help becoming shell-shocked. So the concern was that when the bullets started flying they’d look around and say “these are the same guys and the same coach who choked against Miami and Golden State”. Now there’s something different. Now we have Jason Kidd and if that puts Dirk’s mind at ease then it’s well worth it. It will be even better if Kidd can remedy Dirk’s on court sulking by getting him an easey basket or talking him through it.

And as an NBA fan how can you not be exited about seeing Jason Kidd play night in and night out. I’d become board with the team to the extent that I was no longer taping games and if it wasn’t one of the super powers there was no guarantee I would watch. After last season I didn’t have the energy to live and die with this team for 82 games. If nothing else, this trade has renewed my passion for regular season Mavs basketball and that’s got to count for something.

[jthig32]

You know, your point about the team needing a shakeup is a solid one. This past offseason I was shouting in every thread I could that this team HAD to make a change, simply to make a change. I was convinced that the mental makeup of this team was shot.

Somewhere along the way this season, I became convinced I had been wrong. And I'm not exactly sure how it happened, because it's not like the Mavs had been playing like gangbusters.

Man, I still don't know what to think. I am really, REALLY going to miss Devin, and I am 100% convinced that he has not reached his ceiling and is going to be an all-star level PG.

However, right now, if you put a gun to my head and told me I could have the trade back if I wanted, I'd probably decline and just see what happens.

Man I hope this works.

[elec99]

This trade makes us better against some teams, and worse against others.
I don't see how we're better against the spurs, I just don't. We lose a center, and the fastest guy on the team. The spurs can contain Nash, why would Kidd be any different? Plus Kidd doesn't shoot as well.
Now we'll also go up against a Laker and Suns team with a strong center, but without Diop.
This means more double teams against these teams, but with slower personnel. So we have a slower rotation as that ball is being passed back out to the perimeter. Oh, did I mention all of the other west contenders can shoot amazingly from the 3 point line as well?

I know centers aren't exactly abundant, but I think we traded one weakness for another.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

You know...I applaud the Mavericks for doing something. I really do. I think Mark Cuban really believes that he's doing is the right thing, and I think he lost a lot of sleep over it. I think he cares infinitely more than even we do.

But I'm going to tell everyone why I don't like the trade, and it has nothing to do with X's and O's. It's just my opinion. And I promise that 99% of you will disagree.

The Mavericks are not going to win a championship. It is too late. It is too late with this group, with Dirk, Josh and Avery, and maybe Cuban. When You look at what has happened in the last 2 seasons, and you can throw 2003 in there as well if you're obsessed with fat alcoholic guys who only coach one side of the ball, it just isn't going to happen.

Up 2 games to none. 6 to play in the game 3, up 13. That was it. That was their chance. That is their legacy. Do you REALLY think...REALLY think and feel in your heart that the Mavericks can win this year or next year? Because that's it, that's all they've got, and then this thing is going to get blown to hell.

San Antonio, L.A, New Orleans, Denver, Utah, Golden State, Phoenix, Houston....The mavericks could easily, EASILY lose to these teams in the playoffs, and no one would think it strange this season. Oh and once you get past that, you have to deal with Detroit, or Boston, or Orlando.

This move is too late. It's too hard now, and it's not going to get easier next year either.

The odds are so greatly stacked against it, that I would rather have a team that wins 50 games a season for the next 6 years, than a team that just gets disappointed because they decided to REALLY go for it at the exact same time that aging Phoenix, and San Antonio are going to make their last legit pushes at this thing. And then you have at least 3 good years of Pao and Kobe....and watch out for Portland. Utah isn't going anywhere. And oh yeah, KG is going to claim at least one or two coming up here.

That's why I don't like the deal. I already know that the Mavs will not win a ring. But what I don't know, is can they continue to entertain me? With Devin Harris and those 2 picks, they were much more likely to do that. But now, they're doomed to be just good enough in 3 years that they start a string of seasons that have them finishing in the 6,7,8,9 spot every year...not being able to draft well, and not being able to contend.....with no rings to show for it, and an owner that has grown tired of spending money and not getting anything out of it. (Hicks+Arod, ftw)

So why do I watch if I know they won't win a ring? Because I love basketball, and I love the Mavs. I love Dirk and Josh and Cuban, and I know now that the journey is the fun part for me, not the end.

This trade is a divide in the question they've been asking on the radio recently about the Miami Heat: Would you rather win a ring, and then sniff 15 wins for a long time after that? Or would you rather your team be perpetually entertaining and competitive with no ring?

I guess I know what side of the divide I'm on now.

I just don't want to hear any of you complaining in 2011; I promise to keep my mouth shut.

Flaco, I don't know if this is true about you, but you gave the forum every reason to believe you were NOT happy with the team's current setup. You have been very pessimistic, and so it seems strange to me that now you're saying you wish nothing changed.

Do you really mean what you say, when you say you would rather see six more entertaining years of 50-win seasons with no ring? Because that's what we've been seeing, and you sure don't seem entertained, Mr. Choketown U.S.A.

Furthermore, considering the Mavs will most likely win 50+ games the next two or three seasons, those draft picks we gave can't be expected to be worth much more than Maurice Ager (Josh Howard was by far the exception, not the norm). Of course, you seemed aware of this when, while overvaluing the worth of the '08 and '10 draft picks, you said the 6,7,8,9 seed picks won't be very valuable.

A hopeful future offers nothing more than a false sense of security. It is not entertainment. Entertainment can only be given by who is on the court right now.

So if we are doomed to six years of misery after two years of fun, you should really try to cherish these two years while they're still here (you even said you would have fun even without a ring, so it should be easier for you), and endure the six years later, rather than endure eight years of misery, spending the latter six wishing you had appreciated the former two years more.

[Flacolaco]

Do you really mean what you say, when you say you would rather see six more entertaining years of 50-win seasons with no ring?

Rather than only 2 more years of 50 win seasons, with no ring? Yeah I am.

You're missing the point of my post.

The Mavericks are not going to win a championship, in my opinion, in the next 2 years, which is as long as they have now that kidd is here. It can't be done. I think if everyone thought over what has transpired the last few years, and the lay of the land in the West right now, they would find that they believe the same. I am not a hopeless romantic fool. The mavericks had their chance, and it's gone now. Which is why I can't understand the timing of this deal. It's too late.

So from my point of view, the choices are:

1. Not win a championship and blow this group up in a few years now that kidd is here and harris + diop + picks are gone.

or

2. Not win a championship, but at least keep that nucleus together and be at least competitive for a while longer. At least root for nice guys like Devin Harris. Not some wife beater who's lost in the Finals even more times than we have, that ties up the whole pay roll and eventually sours our owner on spending money.

[craggmac]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Rather than only 2 more years of 50 win seasons, with no ring? Yeah I am.

You're missing the point of my post.

The Mavericks are not going to win a championship, in my opinion, in the next 2 years, which is as long as they have now that kidd is here. It can't be done. I think if everyone thought over what has transpired the last few years, and the lay of the land in the West right now, they would find that they believe the same. I am not a hopeless romantic fool. The mavericks had their chance, and it's gone now. Which is why I can't understand the timing of this deal. It's too late.

So from my point of view, the choices are:

1. Not win a championship and blow this group up in a few years now that kidd is here and harris + diop + picks are gone.

or

2. Not win a championship, but at least keep that nucleus together and be at least competitive for a while longer. At least root for nice guys like Devin Harris. Not some wife beater who's lost in the Finals even more times than we have, that ties up the whole pay roll and eventually sours our owner on spending money.

Well, that is just damn depressing. I am disappointed in you. You are one of the posters in these forums that I have always enjoyed reading their posts. But this one, I must say, kind of makes me feel like going down and canceling my internet service.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Flaco,

Are you entertained by the Mavericks? Really? You're always gloom and doom, and you just never seem to be having any fun at all. Even when Devin and other "nice guys" were around, which most of them still are. Even when you had this hypothetical hopeful (yet still doomed, in your opinion) future. You were already depressed, so I don't really see how the Kidd trade changes things in that regard.

I wasn't a member of the forum two years ago, but I'm guessing you didn't put any faith in the Mavs the year they made it to the finals, and probably assumed they would lose to the Spurs, and perhaps even the Suns. Did you actually enjoy any of that playoff run while it was in progress? Did you enjoy at least some of the playoff wins? Or did you tell yourself not to enjoy a single victory unless they won the whole enchilada?

I sure hope not, because you really are screwed if that's your approach. This perpetual defeatist attitude where success is defined only by something you supposedly "know" is unattainable just makes me believe your evaluations aren't based on the actual roster at all. Instead, it looks more like you discredit them only because you root for them. Would you feel as good about the Blazers as you do now if you were a Blazer fan? Would you have any faith in the Jazz if you were a Jazz fan? A Rockets fan? (Ha!) etc.

Bottom line, your history causes me to disregard what you say about how you enjoy watching a team that you believe is doomed to fail. You want that title as badly as anyone else. In fact, I think you want it so badly that you are unable to enjoy anything that transpires, because you also believe there's no way this team will accomplish the one thing you want them to.

[Flacolaco]

Lucky for me, I expect what I say to be disregarded.

Especially about basketball. I don't know anything about basketball. I have said so repeatedly. That's why you'll only ever see me stick my nose into the middle of a serious "basketball" thread to post a funny picture. My opinions are worthless.

I'm sorry that I see this move as "rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic" but that's what it is. Do you REALLY think, in your "heart of hearts" or your head, take your pick, that the Dallas Mavericks are going to win the NBA title this year or next? Do you? Be honest. Really think about it.

The only thing I want this team to accomplish, is to give me 82 nights a year when I get to kick back and watch a sport I love, played by guys I (mostly) love. My Stars and my Mavericks are my haven, and my refuge from every day life in the real world. I just want them to try as hard as they can. That's all.

I liked the group. I admit I didn't want them split up. I touted all off-season that it's "HOW" you play, not WHO plays. I see this trade as a give up. A give up on the 'how'. Changing the WHO is an excuse. To me it's saying "well it was too hard to win that way, so we'll give that up." They could've worked harder, they could've gotten better.

Am I hard on them only because I root for them? Yeah I guess so. It's called tough love.

I love this team. You think what you want.

[ty]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I'm sorry that I see this move as "rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic" but that's what it is. Do you REALLY think, in your "heart of hearts" or your head, take your pick, that the Dallas Mavericks are going to win the NBA title this year or next? Do you? Be honest. Really think about it.

I've thought about it enough. So has Avery. So has Cubes. So has Dirk.

I do think that we have better chances of winning this year or next.

Now, more than ever, Dirk is being underestimated. But, why? He is the MVP. He is almost everything you want in the "best player" on a team.

Yet, the past two years--he's been seen to have a "tragic flaw".

To me, Kidd is the perfect counter to that flaw.

It makes me truly believe that we are going to have a ring very soon.

[Dirkadirkastan]

I see it two ways.

1) The West is tough. If you don't like our chances, it's because there are so many other good teams in the West. But can't you make that argument for anybody?

2) If we're going to lose, someone is going to beat us. Who? It looked like last year that nobody could stop us, except for that nagging team that went 3-0 against us in the regular season. This year, who is going to beat us in a seven game series? What specific weakness is so perfect that another specific team can exploit that with their personnel? Although I can think of some issues and I'm not saying we're unbeatable, I also think no one can stop Nowitzki, especially with Kidd getting him the ball. So I have good enough reason to have a positive outlook and have as much fun watching as the Mavs will have fun playing.

Since when was an improvement a cop out? Improvements are just no-brainers. Since when was a lateral move a cop out? That doesn't make the challenge any easier.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Oh man, I'm so glad Flaco isn't the GM.

Flaco: Dance, monkeys, dance! You can't actually win, you just think you can! Keep your silly dreams to yourself.
Dirk: I'm sick of working so damn hard to create every shot for myself and my teammates. The days of Nash were much more fun, can we get a real point guard?
Flaco: NO! It's more fun for me if you work your ass off into mediocrity just long enough so I can bring in new guys to sustain this level of hopeless decency after you retire.
Dirk: But if there is a real opportunity to take a chance and go for the gold...
Flaco: Silence! That kind of thinking is a cop out! We're not going to win now, and we're not going to win later, because it's all about the future. You're not looking at the big picture.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I just don't want to hear any of you complaining in 2011; I promise to keep my mouth shut.

Holy Moley Flacolaco...2011 is an eternity away, an eternity.. Your premise is that they cannnot win a championship with this team? Okay...but the alternative is to blow it up, so you can "possibly" win one in 2011.

There's just no guarantees, all you can do is lace 'em up and play 'em. You just never know, you really don't. See NYGiants as an example. Detroit Pistons comes to mind as well.

You should enjoy the ride, but the players themselves want to see the mgmnt doing what it takes to win now, that's what Kidd means about the mavs having a vision, it's just not the same old mavs anymore. The goal is the jewelry. When you DO have a supersta' you've got to ride him until it's obvious that he doesn't have it anymore.

I don't think that it's obviouis yet, so you've got to take that shot. The alternative is permanent mediocrity because you will NEVER have a gurantee.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

And as an NBA fan how can you not be exited about seeing Jason Kidd play night in and night out. I’d become board with the team to the extent that I was no longer taping games and if it wasn’t one of the super powers there was no guarantee I would watch. After last season I didn’t have the energy to live and die with this team for 82 games. If nothing else, this trade has renewed my passion for regular season Mavs basketball and that’s got to count for something.

If the fandom is getting bored with it, you can imagine how much the mgmnt was also seeing it with the team. No doubt they needed a shake-up.

It's funny isn't it. This IS the same team that won 67 games but they just weren't the same. They were capable but didn't have the drive. It was extremely important to get that drive back and it's pretty obvious that the coach wasn't going to be able to do it. And that wasn't a knock on coach, maybe Jack-zen could have shaken 'em out of it with some meta-physical deal but Avery couldn't. Not sure anyone could really, they've been through a lot.

[dirt_dobber]

WOW as of this morning it is 58% AGAINST and 42% FOR.......

interesting as to who has voted both for and against........

FOR
#1MavsFan, 12 Tone Melodies, antoinewalker, Aussie Mav, AxdemxO, Big Boy Laroux, birdsanctuary, Caseman, chumdawg, consp1r4cy, craggmac, DanC, DelNegro, Dim499, dirkadirka, Dirkenstien, dirkFREAKINnowitzki, DirkFTW, Dirrrk4-3, dirt_dobber, Dor-Style, Dr.Zoidberg, drtmvs, Dwane, EricaLubarsky, FINtastic, fluid.forty.one, foglemann, Folterkammer, FreshJive, fxtan, GermanBlitzkrieg, ghazi, gonzo326, gps, gruppy, Gus, helmsclam, HURRICANECUB, Hydhypedplaya, iella, jacktruth, jet31, JHo5, joemavs7, johoquisydirkjet, juckie, KFunk, kg_veteran, kuki301, longsufferingmavsfan, Lor20, LRB, Mav Addict, MavinVA, mavsjunkie, mav_love, me770706, MikeB, monty55555, Msep41, muzak, Nash13, Nbalegend41, NewMexiMav, Nowitness41, pepe, peppersquad, phil52, Pj5, ProdigyDub, purplefrog, Quetzalcoatl, Razor55, reflexred, rmacomic, Rocketball4Life, sani, SeriousSummer, ShaggyDirk, sonedski, sp3nc3r13, spreedom, StackAttack, stoble, Stressboy, StrikerV, studeyp, the DoNkEy PuNcH, TheBlueVan, thereaper, TomThaMavsFan, turbo.mav, twistaeffect2004, ty, Ummmmm Ok, Underdog, usafreedom3, vjz, vmac, wmbwinn, WraithXx, XERXES

AGAINST
#41, abovemaverage, adirktotheheart, afro4president, angelace406, aswin, atrewsfan, BadWolf, baldone, ballin_boi, Bambalaz, barto, Bathouse Bear, baylorbear82, BBJONES, bcrav4, Benny, bernardos70, blahblehblah, blakepilot, Blue Brick, bobatundi, Bookit, casper93, Chicken Diavlo, Chin, cinemablend, cshedd, dallasryp, dalmations202, DarenG, Darth Ape, dautowerk, Day1MavsFan, DevinFuture, DevinHarriswillstart, Dirk1313, Dirkadirkastan, Dirkgreatness, dirno2000, Dor, Dortmund, drypenn, DubOverdose, duneventrip, encwhooper, endrity, FineCubanCigar, Flacolaco, freestyle, Freshlyill24, g30hd3, GermanDunk, GermanFan, grahamattacks, harsh euro barge, horse900703, hotsauce, ifluvdharris, ilMavvento, Jack.Kerr, JamesVE, Janett_Reno, JD45, Jerry Stackhouse, jflick, jfossee, Josh, jthig32, junebug, LakerFanwoot, Lakers5150, lanslort, Male26Dan, mav4ever, mavs5241, mavsfan1000, MavsFanFinley, MavsMandy, mavsrdbest, MavsX, melkor, mellowyellow75206, MFFL, Michi1980, mnmpeanut, mqywaaah, nashtymavsfan13, NateCohen, Natte, Ninkobei, nowhereman, numnuts665, NYMavFan, ocelot_ark, onesixthen, pandalover810, phil smith, pkdumas, Pongo, Popeye, rabbitproof, RingTheBell, roadrunner, Robillion, robz, sarodr44, satrekker, sbibi, SchumiWDC, scorched03, sharlettemelton, shaw-xx, Simon2, SkullLeader, Snow Man, soulfood76, Stranger, stuportremens, tdn, Thespiralgoeson, thurst0509, Tokey41, Trapper, Trent Steele, TripleDipping, tsar, TVI, u2sarajevo, V2M, vashjan, viggenja37, vlad, VoteForBen, WayOutWest, wdboy, weston, whoisray, Winwall, wireonfire, xcacophony, Yuckychimp, zanahale

[V2M]

^ I changed my vote as soon as I realized George and Stack are not included...

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dirt_dobber

WOW as of this morning it is 58% AGAINST and 42% FOR.......

interesting as to who has voted both for and against........

Check the second vote - a lot of people changed their opinions once the final deal went through...

[sike]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

And as an NBA fan how can you not be exited about seeing Jason Kidd play night in and night out. I’d become board with the team to the extent that I was no longer taping games and if it wasn’t one of the super powers there was no guarantee I would watch. After last season I didn’t have the energy to live and die with this team for 82 games. If nothing else, this trade has renewed my passion for regular season Mavs basketball and that’s got to count for something.

sadly...I fell into this boat as well. The past two seasons had just nearly sucked the life out of me for my Mavs. I still made the effort to see the highlight and watch the big games...but if this trade does nothing else...it has infused me with life again...and while this means nothing to anyone else, I'm VERY thankful.

[sike]

you can add sike to the "for" list.

[horse900703]

u have to like it now.........

[Knickfan]

Wouldn't have been a bad trade if they didn't give up so much.

[LRB]

Originally Posted by Knickfan

Wouldn't have been a bad trade if they didn't give up so much.

I'm sure the Mavs will survive without Keith Van Horn.

[Jack.Kerr]

Originally Posted by LRB

I'm sure the Mavs will survive without Keith Van Horn.

Ironically, I bet they wish they still had HIM as a trading chip.

[LRB]

Originally Posted by Jack.Kerr

Ironically, I bet they wish they still had HIM as a trading chip.

It would be nice to still have him as a trading chip, but at the price of Kidd or even Stackhouse? I'm not so sure about that. KVH might not be worthless, but he's not something that the Mavs can't live without. Neither are Diop and Harris something that the Mavs can't live without when they get Kidd. Hassel well, I don't know if he was worth that much to this team.

The Mavs give up a good young guard, a decent backup big man, a spare swingman, a retired spare who's potentially would have been valuable in trading with a team want salary cap relief or just to make a trade work with the cap, 2 most likely very late 1st round picks and 1 late 2nd round pick and $3 million of a billionaire's money. They get back an all-star guard at the tailend of his career but still playing at an all-star level, a spare swingman with potential, and a spare big man. Not as good as the deal the Fakers got, but still sounds like a great deal to me. And it doesn't sound like the Mavs gave up anything that they can't live without

[Jack.Kerr]

Originally Posted by LRB

It would be nice to still have him as a trading chip, but at the price of Kidd or even Stackhouse? I'm not so sure about that. KVH might not be worthless, but he's not something that the Mavs can't live without. Neither are Diop and Harris something that the Mavs can't live without when they get Kidd. Hassel well, I don't know if he was worth that much to this team.

The Mavs give up a good young guard, a decent backup big man, a spare swingman, a retired spare who's potentially would have been valuable in trading with a team want salary cap relief or just to make a trade work with the cap, 2 most likely very late 1st round picks and 1 late 2nd round pick and $3 million of a billionaire's money. They get back an all-star guard at the tailend of his career but still playing at an all-star level, a spare swingman with potential, and a spare big man. Not as good as the deal the Fakers got, but still sounds like a great deal to me. And it doesn't sound like the Mavs gave up anything that they can't live without

I'm referring more to the fact that Stackhouse's mouth (and perhaps the Mavs' lack of preparation) led to their having to use KVH to acquire Kidd, instead of being able to use the KVH-chip in a subsequent trade.

I don't think that Kidd as the sole acquisition is enough to make the Mavs a top-tier Western Conference team, especially at this point in the season. And I would also fear that they gave up more defensively than they're going to be able to replace.

They may not really have had a choice, but I don't think they're going to be able to close the gap. I guess we can enjoy seeing Kidd's style of play, and seeing him meld (or not) with Dirk. That should be fun, as long as it lasts.

[ty]

Originally Posted by Knickfan

Wouldn't have been a bad trade if they didn't give up so much.

...because the Knicks know all about "good" trades?

[nikeball]

The curse of KVH has been lifted.

[Jack.Kerr]

Originally Posted by ty

...because the Knicks know all about "good" trades?

Well, they certainly know about "bad" ones.

[Stressboy]

Jack.Kerr, if Cuban had been willing to spend more money he could have signed KVH to 15mil and gotten a third team involved in the trade. I worked up a few in the trade forum. Its obvious he did not want to spend the money. He only did it to save face after the stack disaster. I really don't think they would have done anything else. For the difference in the money we could have gotten someone like Wally instead of the Cavs for instance but we will never know because I don't think it was an option. If he had spent more money he could have kept Diop and Hassel as another option.

[Jack.Kerr]

Originally Posted by Stressboy

Jack.Kerr, if Cuban had been willing to spend more money he could have signed KVH to 15mil and gotten a third team involved in the trade. I worked up a few in the trade forum. Its obvious he did not want to spend the money. He only did it to save face after the stack disaster. I really don't think they would have done anything else. For the difference in the money we could have gotten someone like Wally instead of the Cavs for instance but we will never know because I don't think it was an option. If he had spent more money he could have kept Diop and Hassel as another option.

Couldn't he have used KVH in a separate deal?

I don't see how involving a third team in the Jersey trade would necessarily have helped. I agree that player like Wally would've just been cluuter.

I do hope that they can pull it all together and make some kind of little run going into the playoffs. Kidd is a fun player to watch, without a doubt, and seeing him work with Dirk should be entertaining. But 28 games isn't a lot of time for a major overhaul. All that experience better count for something. And quick.

[Stressboy]

Would mike miller have worked for you?

http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=32335

Take a look at that thread and you will see that just like the Cavs 3 team trade the Mavs could have done whatever they wanted with the KVH money if they had been willing to actually use it.

[dude1394]

I am quite happy that we didn't give up devean and stack (even for a month) to make this deal. Very happy. It's only cube's money and it's not even a bunch of money that is long-term.

I did not like the idea of being without stack for a month and devean (who is playing much better than anyone not named terry off the bench) in the western conference. I could easily have seen us being 2 games out.

We'd probably have been 2 games out anyway without devin so this is also a way to stay in the race.

[Tokey41]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

You know...I applaud the Mavericks for doing something. I really do. I think Mark Cuban really believes that he's doing is the right thing, and I think he lost a lot of sleep over it. I think he cares infinitely more than even we do.

But I'm going to tell everyone why I don't like the trade, and it has nothing to do with X's and O's. It's just my opinion. And I promise that 99% of you will disagree.

The Mavericks are not going to win a championship. It is too late. It is too late with this group, with Dirk, Josh and Avery, and maybe Cuban. When You look at what has happened in the last 2 seasons, and you can throw 2003 in there as well if you're obsessed with fat alcoholic guys who only coach one side of the ball, it just isn't going to happen.

Up 2 games to none. 6 to play in the game 3, up 13. That was it. That was their chance. That is their legacy. Do you REALLY think...REALLY think and feel in your heart that the Mavericks can win this year or next year? Because that's it, that's all they've got, and then this thing is going to get blown to hell.

San Antonio, L.A, New Orleans, Denver, Utah, Golden State, Phoenix, Houston....The mavericks could easily, EASILY lose to these teams in the playoffs, and no one would think it strange this season. Oh and once you get past that, you have to deal with Detroit, or Boston, or Orlando.

This move is too late. It's too hard now, and it's not going to get easier next year either.

The odds are so greatly stacked against it, that I would rather have a team that wins 50 games a season for the next 6 years, than a team that just gets disappointed because they decided to REALLY go for it at the exact same time that aging Phoenix, and San Antonio are going to make their last legit pushes at this thing. And then you have at least 3 good years of Pao and Kobe....and watch out for Portland. Utah isn't going anywhere. And oh yeah, KG is going to claim at least one or two coming up here.

That's why I don't like the deal. I already know that the Mavs will not win a ring. But what I don't know, is can they continue to entertain me? With Devin Harris and those 2 picks, they were much more likely to do that. But now, they're doomed to be just good enough in 3 years that they start a string of seasons that have them finishing in the 6,7,8,9 spot every year...not being able to draft well, and not being able to contend.....with no rings to show for it, and an owner that has grown tired of spending money and not getting anything out of it. (Hicks+Arod, ftw)

So why do I watch if I know they won't win a ring? Because I love basketball, and I love the Mavs. I love Dirk and Josh and Cuban, and I know now that the journey is the fun part for me, not the end.

This trade is a divide in the question they've been asking on the radio recently about the Miami Heat: Would you rather win a ring, and then sniff 15 wins for a long time after that? Or would you rather your team be perpetually entertaining and competitive with no ring?

I guess I know what side of the divide I'm on now.

I just don't want to hear any of you complaining in 2011; I promise to keep my mouth shut.

I don't remember ever giving you rep, but apparently I can't give you any more. I couldn't have said it better myself. We missed our best chance at a title, the west is so wide open that it's impossible to say with absolute certainty that we'll be winning the title in the next two years. I'm perhaps not as pessimistic as I think we still have a shot, not a good one... but a shot none the less. I don't think anyone can say they like our shot at a title this year... I don't think any fan of a western conference team can say that and not be somewhat a homer.

With the Kidd trade we didn't improve anything we needed to improve (except open looks... great), but in turn we lost so much of our identity. I honestly believe our chances aren't that much greater with this trade than they were before, and at least with Harris and Diop we could have a few more years of trying to compete for the title (I don't think the west is going to get any less competitive but I do think one of those years we may just get through to the finals on pure dumb luck). The difference now is that we only have two years to get by on pure dumb luck.

Edit: I wanted a trade as much as anyone but I was lobbying for a big SG or a post threat (Miller, Maggette, AK-47, I would even be in support of Randolph) but Kidd? The point wasn't an issue for us... it wouldn't have been an issue for another 10 years or so if we hadn't made this trade. Now in two years it will be an issue, like Flac said, I hope no one complains about this team in 2011... this is what you wanted.

[VivaNajera]

The future is now

[Jack.Kerr]

57% didn't like the trade.