Concerns with this year's team - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Thespiralgoeson · 11-07-2007, 01:35 PM

Probably doesn't deserve it's own thread but I wanted to dive right back into the thick of things after a lengthy absence from the boards. Now, the only full game I've had the chance to watch this season was Monday's game against the Rockets, I may be judging to quickly, but here's my two cents:

The team still looks about as good as it did last year, injuries aside. It looks like we've definitely got some much-needed front-court depth with Juwan and Bass (I thought we relied on George WAY too much last year) Either way, we shouldn't have to worry about Dirk's minutes being to high. Diop looks fantastic, and I'm really digging Jet's role as the sixth man.

However, and again keep in mind this is only based on one game, the problems that killed us against Golden State and Miami the year before, don't seem to have been fixed at all. Ball movement seems to have improved a bit, but the guards still have trouble getting into the lane. I suppose I can chuck some of that up to Devin being injured, but anyone who has any delusions about JJ being the answer to all of our backcourt problems is sadly mistaken.

Worse yet, it seems just as easy as it was last year for the opposing team to take Dirk out of the game. The guards don't seem to be able to get him the ball when he needs it to save their lives.

Basically I think the team has the same potentially fatal flaws it has had since Nash left; our guard-play is lacking something, and Dirk can still get taken out of the game rather easily. We're still in the championship picture, no doubt. I know we can beat a team like the Spurs again. However, when push comes to shove, when we go up against a team with lots of athletic scorers, I fear the results will still be the same; our guards will be made into total non-factors, and Dirk will be held to 20 points off of 30% shooting while the LeBrons, Wades, or god forbid the Baron Davis' and Steve Nash's of the league will eat us alive.

LonghornDub · 11-07-2007, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Probably doesn't deserve it's own thread but I wanted to dive right back into the thick of things after a lengthy absence from the boards. Now, the only full game I've had the chance to watch this season was Monday's game against the Rockets, I may be judging to quickly, but here's my two cents:

The team still looks about as good as it did last year, injuries aside. It looks like we've definitely got some much-needed front-court depth with Juwan and Bass (I thought we relied on George WAY too much last year) Either way, we shouldn't have to worry about Dirk's minutes being to high. Diop looks fantastic, and I'm really digging Jet's role as the sixth man.

However, and again keep in mind this is only based on one game, the problems that killed us against Golden State and Miami the year before, don't seem to have been fixed at all. Ball movement seems to have improved a bit, but the guards still have trouble getting into the lane. I suppose I can chuck some of that up to Devin being injured, but anyone who has any delusions about JJ being the answer to all of our backcourt problems is sadly mistaken.

Worse yet, it seems just as easy as it was last year for the opposing team to take Dirk out of the game. The guards don't seem to be able to get him the ball when he needs it to save their lives.

Basically I think the team has the same potentially fatal flaws it has had since Nash left; our guard-play is lacking something, and Dirk can still get taken out of the game rather easily. We're still in the championship picture, no doubt. I know we can beat a team like the Spurs again. However, when push comes to shove, when we go up against a team with lots of athletic scorers, I fear the results will still be the same; our guards will be made into total non-factors, and Dirk will be held to 20 points off of 30% shooting while the LeBrons, Wades, or god forbid the Baron Davis' and Steve Nash's of the league will eat us alive.

You could have ended this post after the first paragraph IMO. There's no reason to judge how this team will fare in the playoffs based on one game in November (that they won, incidentally). Plus, you do realize that our starting PG and primary penetrator wasnt even playing in the game you watched?

Underdog · 11-07-2007, 01:39 PM

The "LeBrons" of the league haven't done squat against us (as proven by "the original" LeBron, himself...)

Maybe you should watch more games before making your assessment...

Thespiralgoeson · 11-07-2007, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

You could have ended this post after the first paragraph IMO. There's no reason to judge how this team will fare in the playoffs based on one game in November (that they won, incidentally).

Well, I was right about those problems after one game last year, and look what happened, so I don't think I'm that far off base.

Quote:

Plus, you do realize that our starting PG and primary penetrator wasnt even playing in the game you watched?

I mentioned it in the post, so yes, I was fully aware of that. And our "primary penetrator" didn't exactly do a lot of penetrating against Miami or Golden State, so unless he significantly improved since April, I'm not too optimistic.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-07-2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

The "LeBrons" of the league haven't done squat against us (as proven by "the original" LeBron, himself...)

Maybe you should watch more games before making your assessment...

Because we haven't played them in a series yet. But if Dwayne Wade can average 40 a game on us in a series, why should I have any reason to believe that LeBron couldn't do the same. My point is, we still struggle with athletic swingmen.

And really, how many more games do I need to watch? I watched all 82 games last year and our problems were still the same as the year before. Do you really think any move we made in the offseason is going to change that?

jthig32 · 11-07-2007, 01:48 PM

Devin has significantly improved since April.

LonghornDub · 11-07-2007, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Well, I was right about those problems after one game last year, and look what happened, so I don't think I'm that far off base.

I mentioned it in the post, so yes, I was fully aware of that. And our "primary penetrator" didn't exactly do a lot of penetrating against Miami or Golden State, so unless he significantly improved since April, I'm not too optimistic.

Just because you were right once doesn't mean that you have the ability to perceive a team's playoff problems in November. The odds are overwhelmingly slanted in your favor when they say in November "this team has flaws that will prevent them from winning the championship"--after all, the odds of any single team winning the title are low to begin with.

As for Devin, he HAS improved a lot. If you had watched the first game and a half you would have seen that. Also, it's a bit off base to compare the past 2 years, when he wasnt the starting PG, to now. Honestly, I'm not sure what makes you think you should be able to imply that he hasn't improved a lot when you admittedly haven't even seen him play.

jthig32 · 11-07-2007, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

And really, how many more games do I need to watch? I watched all 82 games last year and our problems were still the same as the year before? Do you really think any move we made in the offseason is going to change that?

Uh, yes. Eddie Jones and Trenton Hassell are both better defenders than anyone we had on this team last year, and they're not as much of a liability on defense.

And Paul Westphall has made huge changes to the way this team plays offense. Watch a few more games, you'll see it.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-07-2007, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Devin has significantly improved since April.

I feel better already.

jthig32 · 11-07-2007, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I feel better already.

Well...he has. I mean what more do you want from me? I watched the entire preseason (that I could) and all four games of the regular season.

You can see clear improvement in Devin's game, and his confidence level is incredibly high now that this team and committed to him as the PG.

LonghornDub · 11-07-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well...he has. I mean what more do you want from me? I watched the entire preseason (that I could) and all four games of the regular season.

You can see clear improvement in Devin's game, and his confidence level is incredibly high now that this team and committed to him as the PG.

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. The guy who hasn't seen Devin play this year obviously knows more than you, me, or anyone else about whether he has improved.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-07-2007, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

Just because you were right once doesn't mean that you have the ability to perceive a team's playoff problems in November. The odds are overwhelmingly slanted in your favor when they say in November "this team has flaws that will prevent them from winning the championship"--after all, the odds of any single team winning the title are low to begin with.

First of all, I never said this teams flaws will prevent them from winning. Jesus, the title of the thread was "Concerns with this years team." Concerns... nothing more. And I wasn't just "right once." I've been right for the past three years.

Quote:

Honestly, I'm not sure what makes you think you should be able to imply that he hasn't improved a lot when you admittedly haven't even seen him play.

Never said he hasn't.

LonghornDub · 11-07-2007, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

First of all, I never said this teams flaws will prevent them from winning. Jesus, the title of the thread was "Concerns with this years team." Concerns... nothing more. And I wasn't just "right once." I've been right for the past three years.

I don't think your concerns on the team are valid when you've seen one out of the first four games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Never said he hasn't.

Really? That's intersting. Cause you did say this--

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Worse yet, it seems just as easy as it was last year for the opposing team to take Dirk out of the game. The guards don't seem to be able to get him the ball when he needs it to save their lives.

Basically I think the team has the same potentially fatal flaws it has had since Nash left; our guard-play is lacking something

You're making assertions that are wholly dependent on the assumption that Devin has not significantly improved. I'd say, by implication, that achieves about the same effect as explicitly saying that he hasn't improved.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-07-2007, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. The guy who hasn't seen Devin play this year obviously knows more than you, me, or anyone else about whether he has improved.

Jesus, dude, chill out. I never once said Devin hasn't improved. I'm simply reluctant to believe that since April, he's become the answer to the problems that killed us against Golden State and Miami. Nor did I even say that this team was doomed to fail. And I sure as hell never pretended to be clairvoyant or even know more than you or anyone else about this team.

People, read the title of the thread again. Concerns people. That's it. Concerns. Nothing more. This was basically my preseason thread. Chill.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-07-2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

I don't think your concerns on the team are valid when you've seen one out of the first four games.

My concerns would be valid if I hadn't seen one second of any game. Everyone has concerns during the offseason, and during preseason. That's what these are for me.

Quote:

You're making assertions that are wholly dependent on the assumption that Devin has not significantly improved. I'd say, by implication, that achieves about the same effect as explicitly saying that he hasn't improved.

Fair enough. All I'm saying is, these the areas we need to work on through the season; dribble penetration, and getting Dirk the ball. Same shit from last year.

LonghornDub · 11-07-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Jesus, dude, chill out. I never once said Devin hasn't improved. I'm simply reluctant to believe that since April, he's become the answer to the problems that killed us against Golden State and Miami. Nor did I even say that this team was doomed to fail. And I sure as hell never pretended to be clairvoyant or even know more than you or anyone else about this team.

People, read the title of the thread again. Concerns people. That's it. Concerns. Nothing more. This was basically my preseason thread. Chill.

I'm quite "chill", thank you. In fact, I never claimed that you actually said Devin hasn't improved--but you sure as hell implied it. Your entire original post is essentially implicit on such an assumption.

As for voicing your concerns, you're obviously more than welcome. I'm just voicing my rebuttal to your concerns. And personally I think you should wait until you've had a bit more time to digest this year's team before you start organizing and articulating your concerns. But that's just me.

And for what it's worth, I'm not attacking you. Just your concerns.

wmbwinn · 11-07-2007, 02:12 PM

Concerns:

problems with athletic swingmen: Truly, the Mavs held Lebron James to the worst game of his career. When the Mavs were asked about it later, they humbly said he missed a lot of shots. "He had shots, but missed them" was I believe the basic idea in the quotes. I'm worried about the Denver Nuggets, where you have to shut down the point guard and swingman/small forward. Lets also wait and see what happens when we face Kobe and Wade. I'm hopeful that the Mavs have defenders now in Hassel and Jones (added to JHo). But, I view it as too soon to be sure.

problems with penetration: in my opinion, the problem with the Mavs offense is the lack of a scoring center. Diop is doing worlds better than the previous years of his career. Damp did better last year and may have improved more but we don't know because he is injured. I don't know if JuHo is going to give us anything. Bass is fun and may make a difference against some teams but he isn't going to be the center against Yao or Shaq or several other true centers. The reason the Mavs can't seem to penetrate is because the defense can ignore the post men and focus on the guards. Generally, even Dirk is playing like a guard or SF. So, if the whole defense is focusing on the perimeter action and the big men ca't punish that, then there is your problem. True, you could fix that with the miracle of a Steve Nash. But, few other guards do what Nash does. If the Dallas offense is going to look better, it will because they develop more offense in the low post. Dirk's best post up game is the high post which again is in the category of issues a defense can regard as the perimeter game.

So, I actually agree with the thread's author. I don't view us as a forlorn loss. But, I am watching anxiously to see what happens as we face more skilled 2,3 guards/forwards and to see how our centers/PF's play closer to the basket.

jacktruth · 11-07-2007, 02:18 PM

I'll back the spiral up. I thought some of the same things and hey, it's either discuss this or go back to work.

I do think that Dirk has flaws to his game that make him stoppable. He can't play the post well enough to beat bigger players and he's not fast enough to get around smaller players. You have to take advantage of mismatches with him, which takes good offensive coaching, which has certainly not been Avery's strength. For long stretches of the game, particularly with Stack and Jet in there, we were doing nothing but isolation plays.

There were times that we just lacked the ability to slow down McGrady.

However. . .
Dirk is far from being an offensive liability. We do have much better offenses this year. During the Houston game when I was thinking "too much isolation," they did some substitution, and they made the adjustments with different offensive looks.

They also made some adjustments by going to a zone and using Howard to guard McGrady at the point - 2 turnovers. And let's face it. Who doesn't lack the ability to slow down McGrady sometimes.

In the end, we won the game off great defense, and solid offensive execution. Yes, Houston did score some points on us. It happens every game. THey had some runs on us. Happens every game. But it seemed to me that no matter how good it looked like Houston was doing, we never seem to fall very far behind. This Mavs team puts constant offensive pressure on the opponent, much better than they did last year.

In the end, if the Houston game was the only game I saw this year (and it was), I would be pretty encouraged by our chances. We pretty much owned the 4th quarter. We owned Yao. We own the rockets.

Tokey41 · 11-07-2007, 02:23 PM

I think the main concern we should have above all else if the start of the year is any indication is being completely healthy. I wish we could what this team looks like at full strength. Howard, Harris, Dampier, George, Bass... I mean really what more can you say? We haven't seen 3 of our top 5 guys (if you count Damp) in the rotation together. If this team is 100% come playoff time i'll be happy.

LonghornDub · 11-07-2007, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

I think the main concern we should have above all else if the start of the year is any indication is being completely healthy. I wish we could what this team looks like at full strength. Howard, Harris, Dampier, George, Bass... I mean really what more can you say? We haven't seen 3 of our top 5 guys (if you count Damp) in the rotation together. If this team is 100% come playoff time i'll be happy.

Agreed. The injuries are scaring the crap out of me.

purplefrog · 11-07-2007, 02:26 PM

I am choosing to ignore all concerns for now.

That being said, time will tell on some of spiral's points. Thursday will give us a little bit of insight.

Flacolaco · 11-07-2007, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

Agreed. The injuries are scaring the crap out of me.

Speaking of which, does anyone know anything about Josh's ankle? or how Bass is doing? It's too early in the year for them to be all banged up like this.

LonghornDub · 11-07-2007, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Speaking of which, does anyone know anything about Josh's ankle? or how Bass is doing? It's too early in the year for them to be all banged up like this.

According to the DMN--Josh , Bass, and EJ are day-to-day with their ankles. Devin is probable for Thursday.

Quote:

The Mavericks don't know if they will have Brandon Bass (left ankle), Josh Howard (right ankle) or Eddie Jones (right ankle) for the Golden State game.

All three were listed as day-to-day and did not practice Tuesday.

Meanwhile, Devin Harris went through the full practice and is probable against the Warriors. Erick Dampier also went through a full practice for the first time. Coach Avery Johnson said the team will see how Dampier recovers from his first full-scale scrimmage. The 6-11 center still has no firm timetable for his return.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...e.35efc2c.html

DirkFTW · 11-07-2007, 02:41 PM

I'm concerned the Mavs are too awesome.

jayC · 11-07-2007, 02:48 PM

The fact Diop actually can catch the ball is a thing of beauty. Diop had no fouls against Yao Ming, foul trouble hurt him last year. Diop is probably our most dynamic lowpost defender.

Devin Harris , I haven't seen enough of him to draw a conclusion. The fact that Barrea goes from benchwarmer to contributor is remarkable. The guy is in only his second year in the league.

Juwan Howard can spare us to death again. I guess he can hit the open eighteen footer.

I am excited about Trenton Hassell making open jumpshots from the perimeter. Finally a good defender opposite of Josh who can hit the open 18 footer.

I think the game is still all about match-ups. A rematch with the defending champs is still in our favor.

MavsX · 11-07-2007, 03:31 PM

LOUD NOISES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rabbitproof · 11-07-2007, 03:39 PM

Yeah. Things are going pretty well for us.

JJB and Bass come from nowhere to become semi-rotation players.
Juwan hopped on board a tick before midnight. Should be better than Cro at the least.
Dirk is passing well. Will help with double-teams moving forward.
Diop is finishing, catching the ball and staying out of foul trouble.
JET has taken to his 6th man role without grumps and is excelling. Take that, Manu!
Josh looks better than ever.
Devin is playing with confidence, a bonafide j and leading things on the court.
Hassell and Jones have yet to have 'big' games but are still able to contribute without the flash.
Avery is backing off a bit and staying true to plans despite injuries and additions.

Athletic teams like Atlanta still pose a problem but I'll wait until our injuries heal and our new guys finishing gelling before I get concerned.

V2M · 11-07-2007, 06:16 PM

My biggest concern is that it's still... NAH-VEM-BUR!

Underdog · 11-07-2007, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirkFTW

I'm concerned the Mavs are too awesome.

Yeah, that worries me too...

Maybe we should let BronBron score some more points or allow Houston to win when we're short-handed due to injuries? Or maybe we can just give up on winning sloppy so we can look flawless by always winning pretty (and just ignore the losses)? Maybe we could be more like Golden State, Denver, or Phoenix so people will watch our flash & forget about our constant shortcomings in the post-season? Or maybe we can lose to the Spurs like everyone else in the league?

Just some suggestions to make the Mavs live down to everyone's expectations...

Dirkadirkastan · 11-07-2007, 08:05 PM

Our 10.0 MOV is what's bothering me.

shaw-xx · 11-07-2007, 08:52 PM

The Houston game was definitely not the best out of our backcourt. Jet saved us. Devin was for sure missed. You could say JJB played like Nash against the Kings but like Ager who didn't know what to do on the court against Houston. For four games, I'm basically fine with what you've concerned. Dunno if I'm a little optimistic...

alby · 11-07-2007, 08:56 PM

Dallas will win a solid 59+ games this year, so don't worry about us during months November - April.

wmbwinn · 11-07-2007, 09:14 PM

Spiral never said anything about the Mavs having an off year. He noted we would probably win over 60 games again. His whole post was about what might happen in the playoffs again if we don't fix a few things. There have been several posts that seem to have entirely lost that focus.

dude1394 · 11-07-2007, 09:32 PM

Mavs seem to have made steps to try and address some of the issues they had, it'll take a while to see how it pans out. If Jason or Josh had shot better (or more) in the second half of the GSW series I expect we'd have won that one as well.

If the mavs continue to work on zones that will help as well. We already have a better scoring diop(much more aggressive). We've resolved the small back court by making Jason the sixth man instead of starting.

I don't think Eddie Jones/Trenton Hassell are tremendous upgrades over buckner but Hassell does look stronger and doesn't only sit out and shoot threes. Eddie had better get his shot back or he'll be inactive most of the time.

craggmac · 11-07-2007, 09:35 PM

I'm getting the feeling that this post might not have been the best option for you.

mqywaaah · 11-07-2007, 09:49 PM

Wild Horses!!!

DLord · 11-07-2007, 10:38 PM

Spiral, from what I've seen the Mavs have made tremendous changes this season, even though on the surface they look like very much the same team.

Your opinion telling us they haven't changed and therefore won't change, without having actually watched to see what indeed they are doing, is silly. With only a brief glance, how would you know? And one should watch multiple games before opining on trends and attempted change, in my opinion.

I can name you a ton of significant changes that already showing up, and based on what we are already seeing there's no reason to think there won't be even more as the season goes along. Others here have already noted quite a few of those for you. And keep in mind you don't want to change everything - a team that wins 67 has a lot of things they should rightfully retain. Frankly, I've been positively impressed so far with the amount of positive change that has obviously been initiated.

Silk Smoov · 11-07-2007, 11:00 PM

Spiral, I can understand your points. I do agree that the Mavs are still potentially "Fatally Flawed". BUT, on the other hand, I clearly see Dirk improving in the box. I am liking what I see with Dirk in the low post. By the time the playoffs come, Dirk should be pretty potent in the lane. Second, Diop has improved greatly in the low post as well.

If I add those two things up, then I am very optimistic about our chances. I also think that Hassel and EJ is also what we needed on defense. I really like what they bring to the defensive side. Both of them are very physical and have experience.

If Harris keeps improving, then Diop will average a double, double this season. I never thought I would say that, but Diop also MAYBE the most improved player on the team. This all makes me very excited about the season.

My real concern that I pointed out that I wanted to keep an eye on was the opponent scoring average. I would like the opponent score to come down to about 90pts a game. Defense wins titles, so I would like to see more consistent defense to keep scores low. Right now, our offense is mainly outscoring the other team.

chumdawg · 11-07-2007, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLord

Spiral, from what I've seen the Mavs have made tremendous changes this season, even though on the surface they look like very much the same team.

Your opinion telling us they haven't changed and therefore won't change, without having actually watched to see what indeed they are doing, is silly. With only a brief glance, how would you know? And one should watch multiple games before opining on trends and attempted change, in my opinion.

I can name you a ton of significant changes that already showing up, and based on what we are already seeing there's no reason to think there won't be even more as the season goes along. Others here have already noted quite a few of those for you. And keep in mind you don't want to change everything - a team that wins 67 has a lot of things they should rightfully retain. Frankly, I've been positively impressed so far with the amount of positive change that has obviously been initiated.

David, your enthusiasm is admirable...but no one ever mistook you for being objective when it comes to the Mavs.

You occasionally struggle to make a consistent argument even in one post, or article as it were. Here you say that the Mavs "have made tremendous changes" and that you can name "a ton of significant changes" yourself. Yet at the same time you cover all the bases by suggesting that a 67-win team doesn't want "to change everything" and has "a lot of things they should rightfully retain." Which is it? Tremendous and significant changes, or retaining a lot of what they are?

It is reminiscent of the way you treated the idea that the Mavs struggle against fast teams. You decided to chalk Golden State's dominance up to some other (unstated) factor and leave them out of the discussion. But what happened in the end? The Mavs struggled against a fast team.

I don't really wish to join the specifics of Spiral's argument, because I feel that we haven't seen near enough to know yet. But at the same time, watching just the Houston game is probably good enough to form some opinions, at least early ones. None of the other games--yes, even Cleveland--were near as interesting a matchup. Yes, we have guys out injured, that's true. But you can still learn something about a team even when one or two or their top eight or nine is out.

I guess I'd like to see you detail the "ton of significant changes" you already see showing up. I think that would further the discussion, much more so than telling Spiral he can't see anything himself from one game--the most telling one, at that.

Tokey41 · 11-08-2007, 12:05 AM

You know who showed great inside scoring during three series of the 2006 playoffs? Dirk. It didn't last. But I guess if he can't take the beating in the paint i'd rather Dirk just be Dirk, especially if Diop can keep scoring points (I was literally at a loss for words when I saw this) and Bass develops.