HOLY COW!!! Rangers get Lee and a TOP prospect from Milwaukee

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Male23Dan

By the way, doesn't Sori have the most OF assists of all OFs this year? Crazy that he didn't want to play that but his strong arm is helping so much. Think he will stay there or tell any team that goes to sign him that he will only play 2B?

The question was Kinsler for Sori, not Wilk. Wilk has been rather disappointing, but don't discount him for next year. He's playing with a bum shoulder and still leading the Rangers in HR's.

Having a high number of assists doesn't necessarily make you a good OF, btw. It can also mean that most teams are taking the extra base on him whenever they can. He also leads the majors in errors for OF, or at least he did last time I checked.

Most of the press out of D.C. refers to Sori as an absolutely dreadful defensive left fielder.

I would imagine he wants to move back to 2B. His numbers this year are special for any position, but once he goes back to his career norms, he becomes a slightly above average offensive left fielder.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

the fact remains that the rangers are a potentially better team now

I agree with this. As I've restated several times, I like the trade. I just want some perspective, especially considering how much it will cost to try to resign Lee.

I think in general people are hesitant to trade top prospects, and overly willing to trade solid major leaguers that have disappointed somewhat. For instance, I would have MUCH rather included Arias in this deal than Mench, but I bet a lot of people on this board would disagree. There isn't really a right or wrong answer, but I think we'll be lucky if Arias is ever as solid at his position as Mench is now.

[Five-ofan]

assists mean very little about outfielders other than that people will run on you. As for lee vs mench its not even close. Mench is so vastly overrated by alot of rangers fans. He has never been anything more than a 4th outfielder and nix is nothing more than a failed prospect at this point. This is basically cordero for a huge upgrade from mench to lee and a prospect. Absolute raping. As for cordero, he has been lights out recently until the 4 run game against they yanks. I think the adams comparison is actually a pretty good one. We will miss coco but there is no way this trade isnt a steal. Even if Lee walks he should be a type a free agent so the rangers would get 2 top 60 draft picks for him. Ill take it.

The one other thing is we now would have enough ammo to get pretty much any prospect in baseball if we chose to go that way. We essentially have the best pitcher(padilla) and bat and if we should choose to trade aki, best reliever on the market all at the same time. I seriously doubt we do that but it is something to think about.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

assists mean very little about outfielders other than that people will run on you. As for lee vs mench its not even close. Mench is so vastly overrated by alot of rangers fans. He has never been anything more than a 4th outfielder and nix is nothing more than a failed prospect at this point. This is basically cordero for a huge upgrade from mench to lee and a prospect. Absolute raping. As for cordero, he has been lights out recently until the 4 run game against they yanks. I think the adams comparison is actually a pretty good one. We will miss coco but there is no way this trade isnt a steal. Even if Lee walks he should be a type a free agent so the rangers would get 2 top 60 draft picks for him. Ill take it.

The one other thing is we now would have enough ammo to get pretty much any prospect in baseball if we chose to go that way. We essentially have the best pitcher(padilla) and bat and if we should choose to trade aki, best reliever on the market all at the same time. I seriously doubt we do that but it is something to think about.

Oh good grief. Come on. 4th outfielder? He has a career OPS over .800, barely below Lee's career OPS.

If Lee walks, you're stuck hoping Cruz develops into a player as good as Mench, and you're out your setup guy. Not the end of the work, but hardly a "great trade"

[Five-ofan]

He is bad defensively no matter how much people try to tell you he runs well for his size, he is an extreme streak hitter. You mention that lee is having a career year, well outside of menchs career year in 2004 and his really short 2003 which adds up to roughly one full year(163 games) he has never had an ops over 800 for a season. Lee on the other hand has had an ops over 800 for the last 5 years and 6 of the past 7. For all your talk about his down year last year, it would have been kevin menchs second best season of his career.

Edit-to be fair, lee isnt good defensively either.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

He is bad defensively no matter how much people try to tell you he runs well for his size, he is an extreme streak hitter. You mention that lee is having a career year, well outside of menchs career year in 2004 and his really short 2003 which adds up to roughly one full year(163 games) he has never had an ops over 800 for a season. Lee on the other hand has had an ops over 800 for the last 5 years and 6 of the past 7. For all your talk about his down year last year, it would have been kevin menchs second best season of his career.

Edit-to be fair, lee isnt good defensively either.

Mench is average defensively, as is Lee. Mench has a better arm. Playing Lee is right isn't really an option.

Mench is EXTREMELY streaky. Given.

Mench's "under .800 OPS" seaons were both .797. Lee's year last year was .811. You can argue things like down years vs second best years. Whatever. The fact remains, Mench's career OPS is .815, Lee's is .832, and before this year, they were almost identical.

Now, I'm not saying they're the same hitter. They're not. Lee is clearly a better power hitter. But for overall production, they're not that far apart, historically. ESPECIALLY if you look at where Mench is at in his career, and where Lee was in his career two years ago. Now, if Lee puts up three more years like this one, this will be a silly conversation, and I will look dumb. But history shows that it's just as likely that Lee is peaking, and is in line for some slipping. (Although, if he stays in Arlington, that may not happen. That's an added factor)

I agree, Lee is a massive upgrade over Mench this year. If Lee was locked up for 3 or 4 years, I'd be dancing in the streats. My concern comes when we either have to let Lee walk, or we have to give him 5/60, or 6/72, or more per year. That's where the thing gets a little cloudier.

But you can't sit there and say Mench is nothing but a 4th outfielder. There's a reason Milwaukee had to include a good OF prospect in this deal. It's because we're giving up two valuable pieces, and it's entirely possible all we're left with is a 26 y/o young RF prospect, a mid 1st round pick, and a compensatory sandwich pick.

[Five-ofan]

I think giving up cordero is MUCH more dangerous then giving up mench. You mention the park and you forget that mench has played his whole career in this park. That is a big difference as well. Menchs arm isnt much better than lees if any because he has an average at best arm as does lee. The thing is, mench hasnt been in the mlb long enough for his normal seasons to have balanced out his essentially one great season. I find it much more likely that a guy who is had one season where his ops was in the 870s and not another single year where his ops was above 800 to be more of a product of a spike year than a guy who is having an 896 ops year and has had 5 other years of ops over 800 while having one other season in the 890s plus, lee is coming to more of a hitters park. As for what we have left over, i think it is very possible that cruz at least equals mench though yes he is pretty old for a prospect and i doubt we would hav kept coco anyway. He has a 6 million dollar option for next year that i doubt we would have picked up and he wouldnt have been a type A free agent.

Lee is also a guy that stays healthy while mench isnt. I know you watch alot of baseball but so do i and i have to tell you that kevin mench isnt close to carlos lee. Over the last 5 years, lee has an ops of around 850. I just find it odd that you are so quick to point out everyone elses career years while not mentioning that menchs ops is clearly held up by his career year. When a guy has the same ops for consecutive years, it is more than likely that that is what you can expect from the guy. Mench is no longer a young player. The thing is though, he hasnt been in the majors long enough to have his average seasons pull down his career year as far as ops yet because it was such a huge spike relative to anything else he has ever done.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

I think giving up cordero is MUCH more dangerous then giving up mench.

bingo.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

I think giving up cordero is MUCH more dangerous then giving up mench. You mention the park and you forget that mench has played his whole career in this park. That is a big difference as well. Menchs arm isnt much better than lees if any because he has an average at best arm as does lee. The thing is, mench hasnt been in the mlb long enough for his normal seasons to have balanced out his essentially one great season. I find it much more likely that a guy who is had one season where his ops was in the 870s and not another single year where his ops was above 800 to be more of a product of a spike year than a guy who is having an 896 ops year and has had 5 other years of ops over 800 while having one other season in the 890s plus, lee is coming to more of a hitters park. As for what we have left over, i think it is very possible that cruz at least equals mench though yes he is pretty old for a prospect and i doubt we would hav kept coco anyway. He has a 6 million dollar option for next year that i doubt we would have picked up and he wouldnt have been a type A free agent.

Lee is also a guy that stays healthy while mench isnt. I know you watch alot of baseball but so do i and i have to tell you that kevin mench isnt close to carlos lee. Over the last 5 years, lee has an ops of around 850. I just find it odd that you are so quick to point out everyone elses career years while not mentioning that menchs ops is clearly held up by his career year. When a guy has the same ops for consecutive years, it is more than likely that that is what you can expect from the guy. Mench is no longer a young player. The thing is though, he hasnt been in the majors long enough to have his average seasons pull down his career year as far as ops yet because it was such a huge spike relative to anything else he has ever done.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I'm certainly more concerned about losing Cordero. I just didn't appreciate the people saying we ripped of the Brewers by giving up two spares plus CoCo. Mench is not a spare. He's still a pretty solid major league player, and he's also at the same place in his career where Carlos Lee started to really turn it on.

I definitely disagree with you on CoCo's option. I think there was a 0% chance we let that option go on CoCo without resigning him.

[some-dude]

Ca. Lee is only gonna be with the Rangers for about 60 games. Some team will offer him tons of money next year so he'll be tough and virtually impossible to resign. If the Rangers miss out on the playoffs, the deal is pretty much useless as it fails to help either team..

Can someone who is a Ranger fan tell me why the Rangers didn't go after some pitching help? That seems to be their achillies heal year in an year out....

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by some-dude

Ca. Lee is only gonna be with the Rangers for about 60 games. Some team will offer him tons of money next year so he'll be tough and virtually impossible to resign. If the Rangers miss out on the playoffs, the deal is pretty much useless as it fails to help either team..

Can someone who is a Ranger fan tell me why the Rangers didn't go after some pitching help? That seems to be their achillies heal year in an year out....

Pitching is more expensive, and we needed a big bat at least as much as an arm, if not more. The Rangers have turned into a below average offensive team this year.

That said, we do need an arm if we want to win the West, I think. Rhino has been exposed, Koronka is getting close, and Eaton is what he is, an average to below average pitcher.

[Five-ofan]

Eaton has good enough stuff that he could be an above average pitcher. Padilla has been darn good and millwood has been solid. I think the rangers could use an arm but there is help on the way from the minors in terms of pitching. Danks volquez and hurley are all very good prospects. Not to mention diamond who wasnt considered THAT much lower on the prospect scale than verlander. On the hitting front, kinsler and laird were the last of our position prospects. THe rangers have had solid pitching for the last two years including this one and the reason they arent winning has much more to do with the bats than the arms. The rangers have to hit. Especially at home. They havent and thats why they have been a middling team.

As far as getting pitchers, exactly what pitchers does everyone seem to think is available? Aside from zito or willis there isnt a single pitcher on the market who is any good and neither of those guys is really on the market. You really want a guy who has a 5+ era in the NL? That translates to around a 6.5 in the AL No thanks.

BTW to put a cap on this trade grade, when i first saw the not on espn news i was pissed because i was CERTAIN we had given up one of the minor league pitchers. I was thrilled when i found out we hadnt.

[jthig32]

Corey Lidle is being thrown around. Depending on what it would take, I'd be happy to have him. He'd be a nice upgrade over Koronko or Rhino.

And Eaton has been around long enough that longing for his "stuff" is probably foolish. I'd say he is what he is, which was an average, injury prone pitcher in one of the best pitcher's parks in baseball.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

And Eaton has been around long enough that longing for his "stuff" is probably foolish. I'd say he is what he is, which was an average, injury prone pitcher in one of the best pitcher's parks in baseball.

Change that statement to
And Mench has been around long enough that longing for his potential is probably foolish. Id say he is what he is, which was an average, injury prone hitter in one of the best hitter's parks in baseball.

and its still completely true.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Change that statement to
And Mench has been around long enough that longing for his potential is probably foolish. Id say he is what he is, which was an average, injury prone hitter in one of the best hitter's parks in baseball.

and its still completely true.

Average to above average, and he's had one major injury. Not sure how that's injury prone.

[Five-ofan]

he has NOT been above average, that said, im just gonna let it die because for whatever reason, you seem to think he is quite a bit better than he is.

[chumdawg]

Today I brought Eaton off the DL on my fantasy team. I cut DeRosa and picked up Cordero. I am hoping he gets a shot at some saves in Milwaukee! Padilla has been ripping it up for my team the last month or so.

I could go grab Mench out of free agency if I wanted to. But I don't like the streakiness.

[Five-ofan]

Speaking of Fantasy, jthig, i wish you paid attention the the little 8 team league we are in. It just kills me to see liriano sitting on the bench. I know its my fault because i gave up on him when they wouldnt start him at the begining of the year but the best pitcher in baseball shouldnt be on the bench.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

he has NOT been above average, that said, im just gonna let it die because for whatever reason, you seem to think he is quite a bit better than he is.

Mench's numbers are right at league average for a RF, and he'd be slightly above average for a LF, which is really where he should be playing, in a real outfield.

He's 36th among all OF's this year in OPS.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Speaking of Fantasy, jthig, i wish you paid attention the the little 8 team league we are in. It just kills me to see liriano sitting on the bench. I know its my fault because i gave up on him when they wouldnt start him at the begining of the year but the best pitcher in baseball shouldnt be on the bench.

Yeah, I'm in two Yahoo leagues that I've completely ignored. I'm not sure why I lost interest in them. I have a Sportsline league with people I play every sport with, and I give that one the only real time I have to devote to Fantasy leagues.

[theunheardxvoice]

interesting twist gentlemen, i checked nelson cruz'z profile on espn.com and this is what it had to say, "Manager Buck Showalter indicated that Cruz would be the starting right fielder for Texas on Saturday."

heres the link

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...e?statsId=7681

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by theunheardxvoice

interesting twist gentlemen, i checked nelson cruz'z profile on espn.com and this is what it had to say, "Manager Buck Showalter indicated that Cruz would be the starting right fielder for Texas on Saturday."

heres the link

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...e?statsId=7681

Yeah, we already discussed that in the other thread. Buck told Norm today that Cruz will start Saturday. I assume it's because we're playing a lefty, and Cruz's splits show he hits lefties really well.

I expect Cruz to platoon with Wilkerson the remaining of the year.

[jly]

it's sad to see mench go since he was such a fan favorite, but i guess something had to be done to shake things up here. our power numbers have been horrible this year, so i'm hoping this is the shot we need to get things going.

how's lee's defense? do you think he'll be the DH or split outfield time with wilkerson?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by jly

it's sad to see mench go since he was such a fan favorite, but i guess something had to be done to shake things up here. our power numbers have been horrible this year, so i'm hoping this is the shot we need to get things going.

how's lee's defense? do you think he'll be the DH or split outfield time with wilkerson?

I would say the only reason he'll ever see LF is to keep him happy, if he doesn't like DHing. He's not bad, but Wilkerson is certainly a better LF.

[GP]

Wilkerson needs to be released at the end of the year. He is terrible. He didn't even come into the season in any kind of shape. His improved defensive play the last few weeks just suggests that he is finally getting into proper shape. Wilkerson has got to have shoulder surgery in the offseason so next year will be iffy as well. The Rangers should not pay 5 or 6 million for a guy that might not be able to play next year. Not to mention his career numbers are basically pathetic. He is a career .253 hitter. His best season was at .268 which came pre-steroids testing.

[chumdawg]

Lee hit seeds up the middle his first two at-bats tonight, and Cruz even got a pinch-hit in the ninth. Cruz didn't get the bat off his shoulder in striking out on three pitches. Lee? He is a mountain of a man! It was funny to watch Blalock hit after him. In contrast to Lee, Blalock looks 5'6" and 140 lbs soaking wet.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Lee is a very good hitter, and yeah he's HUGE.

[chumdawg]

Lee is a big, huge, fat, mo-fo.

[mary]

I thought this was an interesting quote from T.R. Sullivan's column.

Mench's view: Kevin Mench made his first start for the Milwaukee Brewers on Saturday and said before the game that not being in the lineup every day in Texas was the cause of his problems.

"When you expect to come in every day and have your name in the lineup and then you go home at night and you go 0-for-4 or something and you wouldn't have a good night at the plate and all of a sudden you're thinking, 'Am I going to play the next day?'" Mench told MLB.com.

"I assumed, or I guess that's what I get for assuming that I would play every day. I figure that's the way the game goes. I had some conversations with my teammates ... and it was a joke. We were like, what are we doing. What have we done to deserve this?"

At the time of the trade, Mench was hitting .270 with five home runs and 29 RBIs in his past 69 games and 248 at-bats.

[sike]

Lee has looked freakin amazing thus far...