Ray Nagin - Bafoon in Charge

[madape]

Nagin did not tell everyone to leave immediately, because the regional plan called for the suburbs to empty out first, but he did urge residents in particularly low-lying areas to “start moving — right now, as a matter of fact.” He said the Superdome would be open as a shelter of last resort, but essentially he told tourists stranded in the Big Easy that they were out of luck.

“The only thing I can say to them is I hope they have a hotel room, and it’s a least on the third floor and up,” Nagin said. “Unfortunately, unless they can rent a car to get out of town, which I doubt they can at this point, they’re probably in the position of riding the storm out.”

In fact, while the last regularly scheduled train out of town had left a few hours earlier, Amtrak had decided to run a “dead-head” train that evening to move equipment out of the city. It was headed for high ground in Macomb, Miss., and it had room for several hundred passengers. “We offered the city the opportunity to take evacuees out of harm’s way,” said Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black. “The city declined.”

So the ghost train left New Orleans at 8:30 p.m., with no passengers on board.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...1001529_4.html

The city needs to thank George Bush that only 200 died. If it were up to this fool, the whole damn town would have drowned. All nagin would have to say to the families is "sorry, your daughter should have rented a room on the fourth floor. har har har"

[Mavdog]

Good review and insight, thanks for the link.

This was particularly succinct: "Compounding the natural catastrophe was a man-made one: the inability of the federal, state and local governments to work together in the face of a disaster long foretold."

BTW Nagin issued a voluntary evacuation order two days before the hurricane hit, and a mandatory evacuation order the morning before the hurricane hit. Clearly he saw the urgency of the situation.

Want an example of a "baffoon"? here's what FEMA did with their supplies.
"At that point, FEMA had already stockpiled for immediate distribution 2.7 million liters of water, 1.3 million meals ready to eat and 17 million pounds of ice, a Department of Homeland Security official said. But Louisiana received a relatively small portion of the supplies; for example, Alabama got more than five times as much water for distribution. "It was what they would move for a normal hurricane -- business as usual versus a superstorm," concluded Mark Ghilarducci, a former FEMA official now working as a consultant for Blanco.

seems that "baffoon" also applies to Brown:
"Nagin declared that 80 percent of his city was underwater; after flying over New Orleans with FEMA's Brown and witnessing the widespread flooding, Blanco announced that "the devastation is greater than our worst fears."

But in public, Brown and Chertoff gave no such indication of the cataclysm, later saying they were not told until midday that the levee breaches were irreparable and would flood the city. William Lokey, FEMA's coordinator on the ground, declared that morning: "I don't want to alarm everybody that New Orleans is filling up like a bowl. That is just not happening."

That was exactly what was happening, and many state and local officials quickly concluded that the federal bureaucracy was spinning its wheels."

I found this to be of interest:
"The federal disaster response plan hinges on transportation and communication, but National Guard officials in Louisiana and Mississippi had no contingency plan if they were disrupted; they had only one satellite phone for the entire Mississippi coast, because the others were in Iraq."

[madape]

The head of FEMA was rightly run out of town. Is it time for the head bafoon Ray Nagin?

[LRB]

BTW Nagin issued a voluntary evacuation order two days before the hurricane hit, and a mandatory evacuation order the morning before the hurricane hit. Clearly he saw the urgency of the situation.

The emergency plan called for 72 hours to evacuate New Orleans, why did Nagin wait until it was too late to get everyone out before issuing the evacuation order? Why did Nagin consistently forgoe using mass transit (buses and trains) to evacuate people? Why did Nagin wait on buses from FEMA to evacuate after Katrina when he had hundreds of city and school buses he could have used?

IMO the order of accountability should be as follows:

1. the victims themselves.
2. the Citizens of New Orleans and surrounding areas.
3. The mayor and legislative bodies and other elected officials of local government
4. the appointed local government officials
5. the governor, state legislature and other elected state officials
6. the appointed state officials
7. the citizens of the US
8. the President, Congress, and Senate of the US
9. the appointed federal government officials

So when accessing blame we should start at the top of the list and work our way down instead of the other way around. Yeah there may well be some blame for FEMA, but I think there is a hell of a lot before you get to them. No one who should get a free ride who has made serious mistakes, but the higher up the chain of accountability, the more serious the mistakes are. Some may not have done anything wrong, and they should be absolved of blame. But I'm completely against using the Democrat model of accountability:

1. Bush
2. Bush appointed officials
3. Other elected Republicans
4. Other appointed Republicans
5. Other republicans in general
6. Big Business
7. Rich Americans
8. White Males
9. White Americans

This is pure stupidity IMO.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: LRB

The emergency plan called for 72 hours to evacuate New Orleans, why did Nagin wait until it was too late to get everyone out before issuing the evacuation order? Why did Nagin consistently forgoe using mass transit (buses and trains) to evacuate people? Why did Nagin wait on buses from FEMA to evacuate after Katrina when he had hundreds of city and school buses he could have used?

The initial evacuation order was issued close to 72 hours (Friday morning) before the hurricane hit (Sunday night).
The City does not control the school buses (owned by the Parish I believe).
Why wait on FEMA? That's what FEMA does..

IMO the order of accountability should be as follows:

1. the victims themselves.
2. the Citizens of New Orleans and surrounding areas.
3. The mayor and legislative bodies and other elected officials of local government
4. the appointed local government officials
5. the governor, state legislature and other elected state officials
6. the appointed state officials
7. the citizens of the US
8. the President, Congress, and Senate of the US
9. the appointed federal government officials

So when accessing blame we should start at the top of the list and work our way down instead of the other way around. Yeah there may well be some blame for FEMA, but I think there is a hell of a lot before you get to them. No one who should get a free ride who has made serious mistakes, but the higher up the chain of accountability, the more serious the mistakes are. Some may not have done anything wrong, and they should be absolved of blame. But I'm completely against using the Democrat model of accountability:

1. Bush
2. Bush appointed officials
3. Other elected Republicans
4. Other appointed Republicans
5. Other republicans in general
6. Big Business
7. Rich Americans
8. White Males
9. White Americans

This is pure stupidity IMO.

well, you conjured up this list, and as it truly is a product of your own mind, if you want to call it "stupid" you certainly have the right....

[LRB]

The initial evacuation order was issued over 72 hours (Friday morning) before the hurricane hit (Sunday night).

Don't know where you learned to do math, but even in the 3rd world state of Arkansas they taught us that there are 24 hours in a day and 24 + 24 + 12 < 72.

Let's see Friday morning to Saturday morning is 24 hours. Saturday morning to Suday morning is 24 hours. Sunday Morning to Sunday night is approximately 12 hours but certainly less than 24. And then it was only a voluntary evacuation, instead of a mandatory one.

The City does not control the school buses (owned by the Parish I believe).

Even if we assume this to be true, Nagin could have commandeered them for the emergency. At the very minimum he could have asked Parish officials to use them or for the Governor to authorize commandeering them. And what about the city buses? And why pray tell were they listed in the emergency evacuation plan that Nagin refused to follow? Nagin just flat out laid an egg here.

Why wait on FEMA? That's what FEMA does..

It was Nagin's responsibility to see the people evacuated. It was only FEMA's responsibility if Nagin and the state didn't have the resources to do so. FEMA had to coordinate hundreds of buses from coming from different parts of the country often hundreds of miles away to arrive, when Nahin had buses already there that could have been used. I guess if you don't give a damn about the people of New Orleans you'd just dump it all in FEMA's lap and start the polictical backstabbing. No way to blame a disasterous problem on a Republican if you don't 1st insure that there is a disaterous problem. Nagin was probably more worried about getting his sorry but reelected than making sure the people got all the help that he could give them. Either that or he is almost completely incompetent in a crisis.

well, you conjured up this list, and as it truly is a product of your own mind

No I didn't conjure up this list, the list just my observations of Democrats in the news. Nagin, Blanco, Dean, Jackson, Moore, and Sharpton just to name a few all followed this model.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: LRB

Don't know where you learned to do math, but even in the 3rd world state of Arkansas they taught us that there are 24 hours in a day and 24 + 24 + 12 < 72.

Let's see Friday morning to Saturday morning is 24 hours. Saturday morning to Suday morning is 24 hours. Sunday Morning to Sunday night is approximately 12 hours but certainly less than 24. And then it was only a voluntary evacuation, instead of a mandatory one.

caught that discrepancy already, it is "close to 72 hours".
Mandatory evacuation? the article mentions the issues with that proclamation and why it wasn't originally done. It's interesting reading.

The City does not control the school buses (owned by the Parish I believe).

Even if we assume this to be true, Nagin could have commandeered them for the emergency. At the very minimum he could have asked Parish officials to use them or for the Governor to authorize commandeering them. And what about the city buses? And why pray tell were they listed in the emergency evacuation plan that Nagin refused to follow? Nagin just flat out laid an egg here. [/quote]

sure, he could have "commandeered" all the cars and trucks in NO too. thatcould have" doesn't mean he should have, or that he has the legal right.
You don't know what he asked the Parish to do, yet that sure doesn't stop you from hurling all this at his feet. for all you know, he did ask, for all you know, he did want to follow the plan but couldn't. for all you know, he did ask the governor.
long and short, you don't really know what he tried to do.

Why wait on FEMA? That's what FEMA does..

It was Nagin's responsibility to see the people evacuated. It was only FEMA's responsibility if Nagin and the state didn't have the resources to do so. FEMA had to coordinate hundreds of buses from coming from different parts of the country often hundreds of miles away to arrive, when Nahin had buses already there that could have been used. I guess if you don't give a damn about the people of New Orleans you'd just dump it all in FEMA's lap and start the polictical backstabbing. No way to blame a disasterous problem on a Republican if you don't 1st insure that there is a disaterous problem. Nagin was probably more worried about getting his sorry but reelected than making sure the people got all the help that he could give them. Either that or he is almost completely incompetent in a crisis. [/quote]

let me repeat: nagin did NOT have any buses. That is why he screamed for FEMA's resources.
Your characterazation of Nagin flies in the face of reality...he is the one who stayed in NO through the whole disaster.
I find you attempts at partisan rhetoric to be more revealing about who it is that "give a damn about the people of new orleans" than anything nagin did or didn't do.

well, you conjured up this list, and as it truly is a product of your own mind

No I didn't conjure up this list, the list just my observations of Democrats in the news. Nagin, Blanco, Dean, Jackson, Moore, and Sharpton just to name a few all followed this model.[/quote]

uh, you "didn't conjure up this list" yet "the list is just [your] observations"????
thanks for clearing that up [img]i/expressions/anim_laugh.gif[/img]

[mercury_rev]

I left New Orleans on the Saturday afternoon before Katrina hit, less than 48 hours before landfall. Nagin had not even officially suggested voluntary evacuations of Orleans parish, let alone mandatory evacs.

That all those buses weren't used is a testament to the incompetence of Louisiana government officials.

[Drbio]

And Mavdoogie will try but will not be able to refute that kind of firsthand evidence.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: mercury_rev
I left New Orleans on the Saturday afternoon before Katrina hit, less than 48 hours before landfall. Nagin had not even officially suggested voluntary evacuations of Orleans parish, let alone mandatory evacs.

That all those buses weren't used is a testament to the incompetence of Louisiana government officials.

you must have missed the mayor's evacuation order, he gave it before you left Saturday afternoon;

"But as Hurricane Katrina bore down on the city Aug. 27, Nagin, concerned over the city's potential liability for business losses, hesitated to order a mandatory evacuation before checking with his legal staff. He called for a voluntary evacuation that day and gave the mandatory evacuation order the next morning, when the hurricane was less than a day away."

link to story

[Drbio]

Nagin must not have tried very hard if a well informed member of his community like mercury_rev didn't get the word. Of course, the more we learn the more we realize that he is an incompetent piece of poo.

[LRB]

Mandatory evacuation? the article mentions the issues with that proclamation and why it wasn't originally done. It's interesting reading.

Didn't see any valid excuses of why they didn't do a mandatory evacuation in the article, lots and lots of spin and @$$ covering though.

sure, he could have "commandeered" all the cars and trucks in NO too. thatcould have" doesn't mean he should have, or that he has the legal right.
You don't know what he asked the Parish to do, yet that sure doesn't stop you from hurling all this at his feet. for all you know, he did ask, for all you know, he did want to follow the plan but couldn't. for all you know, he did ask the governor.
long and short, you don't really know what he tried to do

We know just as much if not more what Nagin tried to do than we do about Bush or Brown. Blame the city, the Parish, or the State but those buses should have been made available. They were in the emergency plan which had provisions for using them. Why that plan wasn't followed was a major screwup of biblical proportions. Nagin was also offered the services of Amtrak to evacuate at least several hundred people Saturday night, but Nagin turned them down flat without comment. Guess he thought there were enough 3rd floor rooms. This guy was a disaster and handled the crisis poorly. Sure he stayed in New Orleans, but he had shelter food, electricty, place to go to the bathroom, all kinds of conviences. And it's not like he had other job responsibilites to take him out of town. Nagin cracked under the pressure and did a horrible job of taking care of the people who elected him and did a huge injustice to the tourists who were there. At the very least he could have announced that Amtrak had room available out of town for those without transportation.

let me repeat: nagin did NOT have any buses. That is why he screamed for FEMA's resources

Nagin did have buses, unfortunately like his @$$ he couldn't find them with 2 hands and a flashlight even when it's not dark. He had city buses, he had an emergency plan authorizing using school buses, he even had an amtrak train available. The main thing that Nagin was lacking was a clue.

[Mavdog]

I can see it now....Nagin announces that there's an Amtrak train available- the last train outa town as it were- a train that can accomodate "several hundred passengers" according to the fine news story ape posted.

Then several thousand show up to take the train, and what do we have?

it's called a riot.

[LRB]

Not if he has crow control and a plan to handle it in place. But goodness forbid that Nagin do anything except complain about how the federal government hasn't done his job for him.

It's flat out amazing how Nagin and Blanco have gotten such a free pass by the dems on criticism while they all seem to be waiting in line to jump on Bush and Brown. But then Nagin and Blanco aren't anywhere in the democrat tree of accountability. Truman may well have been the last democrat elected to a prominent position to put himself in the accountability chain. If not, there sure haven't been many.

[mercury_rev]

I remember listening to the radio on the way out of the city that Saturday. Nagin and Blanco were emphasizing the importance of leaving the Gulf parishes, but they were pretty noncommittal about whether it was time for Orleans parish residents to get out. They certainly weren't stressing it much. Maybe I missed some official call for voluntary evac....But given that they opened an I-10 contraflow at 4pm Saturday, you'd think they would have come right out and said "Everyone in the area -- you need to get out absolutely no later than Sunday." I don't remember them ever saying anything that blunt and forceful.

Anyhow, we should have been leaving the city on Friday, according to their evac plans. That would have given them more time to accommodate those who couldn't leave on their own. They dropped the ball.

[LRB]

Thanks for the report mercury_rev. One things sure from your report, if they had called for a voluntary evacuation before you left, they did a piss poor job of seeing that it was communicated to the general populance. I'm sure they'll try and blame that on FEMA as well. [img]i/expressions/anim_roller.gif[/img]

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: LRB
Not if he has crow control and a plan to handle it in place.

uh huh.
sure.
[img]i/expressions/anim_roller.gif[/img]

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Mavdog

uh huh.
sure.
[img]i/expressions/anim_roller.gif[/img]

I see you agree that nagin is an incompent fool then.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: LRB

I see you agree that nagin is an incompent fool then.

no, but I can see that you have an issue with comprehension!

[LRB]

no, but I can see that you have an issue with comprehension!

Not any more than you. But your biggest issue is never being able to admit that a democrat is responsible for any any mistake, crime, or misdeed of consequence no matter what the evidence you'll never even admit a decent prossibility. YOu will find some small sematic to twist and distort the object essentially laying smoke screen to protect your perfect little democrats such as Nagin.

It comes down to this. The biggest problem was lots of people trapped in New Orleans needing rescue and having to wait several days for rescue. Now if a large part of those people had been evacuated, this problem would not have been near as big. Nagin did not follow the emergency evacuation plan that the city had which at the very least could have evacuated a few thousand. Yet you defend this Bozo like he walked on water, not for anything he did other than declare himself a democrat.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: LRB

Not any more than you. But your biggest issue is never being able to admit that a democrat is responsible for any any mistake, crime, or misdeed of consequence no matter what the evidence you'll never even admit a decent prossibility. YOu will find some small sematic to twist and distort the object essentially laying smoke screen to protect your perfect little democrats such as Nagin.

It comes down to this. The biggest problem was lots of people trapped in New Orleans needing rescue and having to wait several days for rescue. Now if a large part of those people had been evacuated, this problem would not have been near as big. Nagin did not follow the emergency evacuation plan that the city had which at the very least could have evacuated a few thousand. Yet you defend this Bozo like he walked on water, not for anything he did other than declare himself a democrat.

this is very ironic.

i really haven't tried to "protect" Nagin, and in fact in other threads have said he'll have to answer for his errors. I even commended and complemented bush for taking charge when he did.

all i've done in this thread is correct false statements.

however, it seems that if the blame isn't put on "democrats" (Nagin was previously a republican, did you know that?) your shorts get all twisted. you scream loudest when a republican is being criticized.

I didn't conceive that there could be a more partisan person than dude, but you've shown me that isn't the case.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: Mavdog
I can see it now....Nagin announces that there's an Amtrak train available- the last train outa town as it were- a train that can accomodate "several hundred passengers" according to the fine news story ape posted.

Then several thousand show up to take the train, and what do we have?

it's called a riot.

Typical. If the story had been about Bush making the decision to not allow anyone on the train mavdog would be lining up to call for his head. But, since it was their precious mayor Nagin they insist on making excuses.

Bottom line....it would have made a difference to several hundred. And those several hundred could have been evacuated in an orderly manner. To say otherwise is ridiculous and shows no comprehension of evacuation techniques. And yes...I've been through several both as a former citizen of Corpus Christi and Houston and as an emergency responder. If you insist on the "riot" angle you are being either obtuse or just ignorant. Of course, all in this forum know you to be both.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: Drbio
Typical. If the story had been about Bush making the decision to not allow anyone on the train mavdog would be lining up to call for his head. But, since it was their precious mayor Nagin they insist on making excuses.

the return of DrCleo, who just like its TV namesake is able to read minds and predict the future...or not.

Bottom line....it would have made a difference to several hundred. And those several hundred could have been evacuated in an orderly manner. To say otherwise is ridiculous and shows no comprehension of evacuation techniques. And yes...I've been through several both as a former citizen of Corpus Christi and Houston and as an emergency responder. If you insist on the "riot" angle you are being either obtuse or just ignorant. Of course, all in this forum know you to be both.

seems that you missed the day when they went over the concepts of crowd control and management.

[Drbio]

As usual...your post is full of words that say absolutely nothing. Fortunately, we all know better. You would be first in line to bash Bush if he were responsible for allowing a train to leave without passengers. It's what you do.

You assume riots and you have no practical or actual knowledge of crowd control techniques. Being a former police officer and an experienced emergency responder I understand how this easy task would be accomplished. You on the other hand rely on ignorance to manufacture a riot which would have never come. Nice try. Go back Nagin at some goofy liberal board. That dog won't hunt here. Ignorance abounds in every mavdog post. *sheesh*

[capitalcity]

I heard it through the grapevine (brit hume's) that Nagin has moved his family to Dallas.

True?

[Mavdog]

yes, he moved his family to dallas.