Improving our team defense - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Shaq of Smack · 08-28-2002, 12:45 PM

Since a Ben Wallace-type quick fix isn't forthcoming, why not put the responsibility for improving our defense on the shoulders of the players we have?

I don't think it will stunt Dirk's already accomplished offensive game to expect a little more effort from him defensively. Same goes for the other starters as well.

Guys getting max contracts should be expected to contribute at both ends of the floor.

irontoad · 08-28-2002, 01:02 PM

<< I don't think it will stunt Dirk's already accomplished offensive game to expect a little more effort from him defensively. Same goes for the other starters as well. >>

Absolutely, defense is a fundamental of the game. Just because someone is a great offensive threat doesn't mean they shouldn't work on the defensive aspects of their game. Micheal Jordan was obviously a great offensive player, and not a bad defensive presence, either.

Dirk really had potential to be a great defender, too, with his height and aggressiveness he should be able to average 1.5 blocks a game at least.

Nellie · 08-28-2002, 01:47 PM

No need for improved defense here, we are already perfect [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Dirk77 · 08-28-2002, 01:58 PM

Nellie, it's getting old.

nowitzki_prophecy · 08-28-2002, 02:22 PM

lol nellie,well,its all mentaly,i do think we should encourage our mates(the players,im feeling enlish today)to guard a little,aslong as we dont make as importent as defence,our offense is very special,we should have some defence but not only,as long as we dont become the western knicks,im a happy chap.

Nellie · 08-28-2002, 02:31 PM

<< Nellie, it's getting old. >>

No shit it's getting old, and it has been going on a lot longer than my comments. Nobody wants to be real around here.

jacktruth · 08-28-2002, 02:48 PM

Effort does eventually hit a limitation. They can't metamorph suddenly just becuase they try. It is a different set of skills that you have to learn practice, and perfect. Dirk works on defense. He just has not developed the defensive skills as much as he has his offensive skills.

There is a limit to how much you can improve. So, if the only off season change we make is to tell our players to "work harder on defense," then we don't improve defensively.

jt

Shaq of Smack · 08-28-2002, 02:56 PM

totally agree. It isn't a matter of just telling them to work harder. But, I think we can't overlook the fact that Dirk and others are not playing up to their defensive potential, no matter how good (or bad) they can ever expect to be.

TheKid · 08-28-2002, 02:58 PM

Well for all those who ask those questions, personally I don't think Dirk is going to improve that much more defensively. Just my opinion. Now granted the players should take alot of the responsibility on their shoulders. Now I have a problem with players who don't try but it NEVER looks like players aren't trying out there. Actually it just looks like they are getting beat alot of the times. That's the problem.

Red White and Blue · 08-28-2002, 03:14 PM

I agree with TheKid on this 1, Dirk has been in the league for 4 years now. He wont be getting that much better defensively. Fin was a good defender at 1 time, but I guess some of the others lack of effort on D has rubbed off on him. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

dude1394 · 08-28-2002, 03:15 PM

<< Well for all those who ask those questions, personally I don't think Dirk is going to improve that much more defensively. Just my opinion. >>

I do not think that larry bird was quicker, faster or had more innate ability than dirk. But he was not viewed as a huge defensive liability. I know it is only my opinion but players can play better defense with effort. I certainly do not think that there is anything wrong with the atheleticism of dirk, raef, nash, finley that will not allow them to play at least marginally better defense.

And that is all we really need. I do not think sacremento is a "defensive" team, they are an offensive team that plays adequate defense. I cannot believe that we cannot do that as well.

FilthyFinMavs · 08-28-2002, 03:25 PM

<< I agree with TheKid on this 1, Dirk has been in the league for 4 years now. He wont be getting that much better defensively. Fin was a good defender at 1 time, but I guess some of the others lack of effort on D has rubbed off on him. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] >>

Im glad u said this. Alot of people fail to realize that at one time in Finleys career he was known as a defensive stopper. HE has developed an good offensvie now and put 1 and 1 together and u have a all around player. I dont know if Finley bring his defensive game up any but not only should he do it Dirk, Lafrentz and whoever are starting small foward will be is going to have to do this also. We get that goin then I dont see how anyone can say we havent improved defensively.

Prince of Heck · 08-28-2002, 03:28 PM

<< Well for all those who ask those questions, personally I don't think Dirk is going to improve that much more defensively. Just my opinion. Now granted the players should take alot of the responsibility on their shoulders. Now I have a problem with players who don't try but it NEVER looks like players aren't trying out there. Actually it just looks like they are getting beat alot of the times. That's the problem. >>

Championship teams of the last decade have extensively used tough roleplayers to handle defensive chores. Conversely, Nelson's system is geared towards offensive finesse players.
A tough veteran inside player would do wonders to take the defensive burden off our young guys. He would also serve as a hands-on teacher for the youngsters to improve defensively as a team.

TheKid · 08-28-2002, 03:52 PM

I certainly do not think that there is anything wrong with the atheleticism of dirk, raef, nash, finley that will not allow them to play at least marginally better defense.

I'm not trying to say they're not athletic, actually that's what makes it frustrating at times watching them defensively because the Mavs are so athletic. However to be a defensive minded person, you have to have the will, all the athletic ability in the world won't help you. Think about it, Pippen was a gifted athlete and even when he was in his prime I wouldn't say he was the MOST athletic in the NBA but he was arguably the best defender because he made a conscious effort to be that defensive player. I don't know if the Mavs current roster has anyone that can put this mind set along with the ability and become that well rounded defensively.

A case in point of this is what Filthy said. When Fin was with Phoenix he was their BEST defensive player. The reason why was because he knew to get on the floor and get time he had to do that. All his points were hustle points and he just worked his ass off at the defensive end. Now he has evolved to a very good scorer. Now that doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability, but alot of offensive players in the NBA conserve energy, putting forth that type of energy at one end of the floor means they can conserve at the other. Only ONE player comes to mind when I think of that and that's Jordan.. However even with Jordan he had to stop that because he was getting so tired. That's why once Pippen developed, he got the toughest defensive assignment because they relied on Jordan so much at the offensive end.

Prince you make a valid point.. It would do wonders for the team by bringing in someone who can concentrate on that end of the court solely, I'm sure it will only HELP the team out.

Usually Lurkin · 08-28-2002, 04:03 PM

Prince and TheKid, I agree that a tough veteran inside player would help change the team mindset. But only if Nellie gave in to it. The offense/defense mindset is coming from Nelson's leadership. My worry about bringing someone like that in is that they'd somehow be relegeted to the bench, right next to Bradley.

-And if Nelson does change, then perhaps (big perhaps there) that change in leadership might be enough to motivate our current players on the defensive end.

Prince of Heck · 08-28-2002, 04:16 PM

<< Prince and TheKid, I agree that a tough veteran inside player would help change the team mindset. But only if Nellie gave in to it. The offense/defense mindset is coming from Nelson's leadership. My worry about bringing someone like that in is that they'd somehow be relegeted to the bench, right next to Bradley. >>

The greater danger is that we'd never know because they failed to try getting that veteran player(s). Although Nelson is indeed horrible at handling inside players, the series against the Kings should have at least convinced him to reduce the importance of the run and gun (i.e. considering Kemp and Popeye). The alternative is another quick exit from the second round.

<<
-And if Nelson does change, then perhaps (big perhaps there) that change in leadership might be enough to motivate our current players on the defensive end. >>

Here's to Donnie Nelson wresting the reigns of power from his father.

TheKid · 08-28-2002, 04:20 PM

There's on problem with getting Kemp, he's not someone who hustles alot, I really don't want him here. Popeye on the other hand I would like to have though.

Usually Lurkin · 08-28-2002, 04:24 PM

<< The alternative is another quick exit from the second round. >>

arguments concerning lack of team continuity and experience notwithstanding.

<< Here's to Donnie Nelson wresting the reigns of power from his father. >>

here, here! (or is it hear, hear!)

Lvubun1 · 08-28-2002, 06:06 PM

I think the Mavs need a coach who will come in and teach defense, the Nellie's are offensive guys, I don't know what the hell Dell is but the Mavs need someone who's specialty is defense. Believe or not I don't think individually the Mavs are so bad on defense. Look at the main five, if no changes are made in the offseason.

Dirk - Obviously his weak spot, but every single year he has improved, he will never be Dikembe but most people aren't.

Nash - Before he got wore down he was doing a pretty good job guarding other PGs one on one. Yes he took some hits but he gave them back, if his minutes get cut somewhat this season, late in the season and in playoffs he should be better.

Finley - Probably the best of out the bunch, some people might even consider him a good defender.

NVE - Yea he got killed by Bobby Jackson in the 4th quarter of game 4 but besides that I can't remember another time where it was noticable that he was playing horrible defense. Remember how everybody was worried about Kobe? Here are Kobe's two games against the Mavs after the trade.
4-18 14 points
5-14 12 points

Raef - Raef is probably the not the answer in the middle but their aren't many equals when it comes to weak-side help. He is not going to bang with Shaq(no one can anyway) and ZO did abuse him because he is not a real physical player. So signing a Popeye Jones or maybe even a Shawn Kemp to just come in and throw some elbows isn't that bad of a idea.

jayC · 08-30-2002, 06:52 PM

Hold on Jordan was a nine time member of the all-defensive team three years ago.

I think we will improve, I recall three or so years ago Sactown led the league in both scoring and had the worst D. I think the mavs will improve dramatically on defense.