Cuban 1on1

[chumdawg]

I did not, no. Nor did I predict they wouldn't. And I certainly would have never, ever, ever thought they had no chance.

Now, did I expect them to win every series as it came? Yeah, probably. That's the fan in me. When the team is going well, I think that all the time. I guess I'm more of a "let them play the games" sort. That's why I hate to hear these "they would have had no chance" opinions. Hey, I would hate to hear that any rate. But when they just got done doing the same thing? I just shake my head. Hey, maybe it's true. But there's just no way that anyone could be so, so sure.

[ribosoma]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I did not, no. Nor did I predict they wouldn't. And I certainly would have never, ever, ever thought they had no chance.

Now, did I expect them to win every series as it came? Yeah, probably. That's the fan in me. When the team is going well, I think that all the time. I guess I'm more of a "let them play the games" sort. That's why I hate to hear these "they would have had no chance" opinions. Hey, I would hate to hear that any rate. But when they just got done doing the same thing? I just shake my head. Hey, maybe it's true. But there's just no way that anyone could be so, so sure.

Good post, chum. I think that arguing that they could or could not have repeated is a bit of a trap being that there is no way to answer that question. I certainly understood why they chose to offer Chandler the 1-year $20 million deal because there is no guarantee that you can move a max contact to make room for the possible addition of Dwight or Deron. And both of those players are worth more short term and long term than Tyson. Although there are some here suggesting that moving Chandler would be easy, I'm not so sure about that, especially if he got the max number of years. Eating $14 million on an expiring contract is one thing, but eating several years at near max money for a big who doesn't really have a post game, struggles at times in man defense, had his best season splitting minutes, has a history of being injured, and isn't really a shot blocker is a big gamble.

He was perfect here because we had a great defensive mind in Casey who could build a defense around Chandler's strengths, and we had Haywood as a change of pace, and contrary to some opinions here, Brendan showed up big when Tyson was struggling during the regular season and title run, although he was playing through injury in the playoffs. I can remember Aldridge going off early against Tyson a few times in the Portland, only to have Haywood come in and pound on him and force him off his spots. People forget that Chandler averaged just under 28 minutes per game that season, with Haywood averaging a little over 21 minutes per game. So they essentially had a platoon situation, partly due to match-ups and partly probably due to Tyson's history of injury.

I'm not sure if people here actually kept up with the Knicks last season, but all of the extended minutes heaped on Chandler showed late in the season and especially in the playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...playoffs::none

With the kind of money Chandler is being paid, there is little cash left for a complimentary big who can bully when needed. I loved Tyson and the way his teammates gave him so much credit, but there were many players on the championship team who elevated their games down the stretch. If we had maxed Tyson out, we would most likely be searching for another big to compliment him like Haywood did, we would have several other holes to fill with little room to do it, serious cap problems, an aging team, and little capital in the form of players to make moves with.

All that said, I would have loved to see them have a chance to repeat, but the team would have been in a much more difficult situation than they are right now if they had decided to go that route in my opinion.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

You do love your logical fallacies, don't you? Can we also call the first 12 years of Dirk's career a waste too, since the Mavs didn't win a ring in any of those seasons?

Re-signing Tyson Chandler wouldn't have guaranteed ANYTHING in the last two years - especially when you consider the fact that Dirk was struggling with Finals fatigue and injuries over that time period... And to repeat myself; Peja retired, Kidd retired, Terry hit a wall and Stevenson sucks now. Were you banking on Barea to be our savior?

Throwing the word guarantee into this discussion is really silly. There is not, will not, can not ever be a guarantee about anything. Using that woord detracts from any validity of your argument.

At the end of the day that team would have competed, especially the next year. And we would be at the same spot as now.

It was a ridiculously stupid move.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Our franchise player who was INJURED... You seem to have a very selective memory about the last two years. Did you even notice how much Kidd and Terry declined after the Finals? Those two hitting a wall was enough to keep us from repeating.

And you also have a very selective memory about our championship run - Tyson Chandler was fantastic, but it's not like he was putting up 20 PPG or something... He couldn't have made up for the decline in our other players.

Our franchise player recovered and we made the playoffs that year with a team that was gutted and knew they were all being canned.

Things are not done in a vacuum, jkiddo, jet checked out because it was being dismantled and they knew it. Why you refuse to acknowledge any result of that is beyond me.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I'm just curious, how much better do you think we would have been the last two years with Chandler? Quantify it. How many games do you think the Mavs would have won, and how deep would they have gone in the playoffs?

Type out the hypothetical roster. Chandler, and the other guys that would likely be around Dirk and him.

We would have beten okc that first year back. That's first. This isa assuming that the reast of the team didn't believe they were being gutted. But IMO I wanted jjb, desean back as well.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

There are only so many times that we can have the same conversation over and over and over again. Whether or not we might have repeated is moot. I just can't stand that some fans think it is such a black and white issue. Of course Dirk's injury makes a difference. Of course Kidd and Terry's regressions matters. And to try and argue that these players don't get hurt if the championship team is kept together is a hypothetical la la land that we'll never know. Forget Dirk's injury for a second though. Kidd and Barea missed 43 games between them that season after we won it all. I find it extremely unlikely that both of those guys would have been magically healthy if the team was kept together.

Chandler is the main guy that I get more than the others. We do see how difficult it is to get a quality center in this league.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Throwing the word guarantee into this discussion is really silly.

Throwing the word "guarantee" into the discussion is a result of the "we would have repeated" crowd speaking in absolutes:

Originally Posted by dude1394

We would have beten okc that first year back.

Sounds like a guarantee to me... It's your wording, not mine.

And OKC made the Finals that year, so I don't know why you're so damn confident that we would have beaten them...

Things are not done in a vacuum, jkiddo, jet checked out because it was being dismantled and they knew it. Why you refuse to acknowledge any result of that is beyond me.

So you're telling me that two professional athletes half-assed an entire contract season just because they were feeling pouty? Did that pountiness extend into New York and Boston where their stats continued to plummet?

I know Terry was on record about being upset that the team was broken up, but to blame his performance on that is ludicrous... JET is a fighter, and he was clearly fighting for his next contract - he even said as much when he mentioned that he was auditioning for 29 other teams. Rolling over like a little bitch sure as hell wasn't going to impress anyone.

Claiming that you know what's going on in the heads of other people says a lot more about how you face adversity than how they do... And I can't be too off-base with that statement, considering that all you've done is pout ever since Cuban broke up the team.

[Melonhead]

I don't see this conversation ever going away. Its was a ballsy move, and so far it hasn't paid off in the least. And probably won't.

These guys were assets if you needed to clear space for Howard,deron Williams. We had trading pieces.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Throwing the word "guarantee" into the discussion is a result of the "we would have repeated" crowd speaking in absolutes:

Just as silly

Sounds like a guarantee to me... It's your wording, not mine.

And OKC made the Finals that year, so I don't know why you're so damn confident that we would have beaten them...

You asked where I thought the team would wind up, I told you and now you say it's a guarantee. I didn't say it was guaranteed, I said what I thought they would do. Did you think they would get swept the year before? Was THAT a guarantee. Ridiculous.

So you're telling me that two professional athletes half-assed an entire contract season just because they were feeling pouty? Did that pountiness extend into New York and Boston where their stats continued to plummet?

I know Terry was on record about being upset that the team was broken up, but to blame his performance on that is ludicrous... JET is a fighter, and he was clearly fighting for his next contract - he even said as much when he mentioned that he was auditioning for 29 other teams. Rolling over like a little bitch sure as hell wasn't going to impress anyone.

Claiming that you know what's going on in the heads of other people says a lot more about how you face adversity than how they do... And I can't be too off-base with that statement, considering that all you've done is pout ever since Cuban broke up the team.

No it says that it is HARD to fight through adversity and the difference between winning and losing is small. The spurs were 25 seconds or so from winning a championship this year, but now the heat are back-to-back champs. The difference is small, that is also why you don't discount the stuff between the ears and the stuff in the chest.

Stupidest front office move in my lifetime.

I've actually tried to be quiet about this but I keep hearing knuckleheads who know what would have happened and won't leave it alone, when they don't know crap. Hell I don't either, but I do know that breaking up the best team is basketball to go after a unicorn is DUMB. So you don't want to hear about it anymore, then quit bringing up that old outdated opinion about how smart cubes was. When the results have been stupid.

[DavidDaMonkey]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I've actually tried to be quiet about this but I keep hearing knuckleheads who know what would have happened and won't leave it alone, when they don't know crap. Hell I don't either, but I do know that breaking up the best team is basketball to go after a unicorn is DUMB. So you don't want to hear about it anymore, then quit bringing up that old outdated opinion about how smart cubes was. When the results have been stupid.

The best team in June is not necessarily the best team in July.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

So you don't want to hear about it anymore, then quit bringing up that old outdated opinion about how smart cubes was. When the results have been stupid.

If I admit that the calculated risk totally wasn't worth it, will you quit living in the past and start talking about the team we have now? Because, frankly, I'm sick of this discussion. You can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

These days, relevant Mavericks conversation is about Monta Ellis - not Tyson Chandler.

[marc9211]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Throwing the word guarantee into this discussion is really silly. There is not, will not, can not ever be a guarantee about anything. Using that woord detracts from any validity of your argument.

At the end of the day that team would have competed, especially the next year. And we would be at the same spot as now.

It was a ridiculously stupid move.

Quit being "that guy" who has to bring up his same OPINION trying to get everyone to agree, it gets old seeing you say something that some people don't agree with, while you force feed it down people's throat. It's the same argument everytime, just because you believe in your opinion doesn't mean I or anyone else has to agree. It drives people away from the boards seeing the same argument every thread, lets hear some optimism about this years team how about it?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

If I admit that the calculated risk totally wasn't worth it, will you quit living in the past and start talking about the team we have now? Because, frankly, I'm sick of this discussion. You can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

These days, relevant Mavericks conversation is about Monta Ellis - not Tyson Chandler.

I don't care if you do or not. If you don't want to talk about it don't engage.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by marc9211

Quit being "that guy" who has to bring up his same OPINION trying to get everyone to agree, it gets old seeing you say something that some people don't agree with, while you force feed it down people's throat. It's the same argument everytime, just because you believe in your opinion doesn't mean I or anyone else has to agree. It drives people away from the boards seeing the same argument every thread, lets hear some optimism about this years team how about it?

Whatever. I do not agree that the championship team was lucky, just don't. And when someone yaks about it, I kinda like to call them on it. But then usually the dry powder proponents try to make their case about what a great strategy it was...and the same argument ensues.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I don't care if you do or not. If you don't want to talk about it don't engage.

Fair enough. Is there anything you like about this team, or are you just a "fan" because of geographic proximity?

I mean, maybe you should take up a hobby that doesn't make you miserable... And stop spreading your misery like herpes.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by dude1394

The spurs were 25 seconds or so from winning a championship this year, but now the heat are back-to-back champs. The difference is small, that is also why you don't discount the stuff between the ears and the stuff in the chest.

...that is also why you don't discount variance.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Fair enough... Is there anything you like about this team, or are you just a "fan" because of geographical proximity?

Yes I do. I think this team is much better than last years because last years guard play was so pathetic. I also think that Ellis should be very interesting to see how he and dirk play the pnr. It is too bad that he seems to be such a poor shot because teams are going to go under screens all day on him and I'm interested to see what Carlisle does,about it.

I love the shooter that Calderon is, I expect he will have a standout scoring year.

Dalembert.. Who knows..

Defensively I think we are probably going to kinda stink, it will depend on how much playing time dalembert gets because he is the only real rebounder. Wright isn't and James isn't either IMO. Crowder needs to be 9th/10th man on this team to be good but he's going to be 7-8 instead.

Team has little depth it appears in the front line and big teams are going to be really tough for us.

So guard play - b+, dependent on whether Ellis comes around to Carlisle or not.
Wings - c
Power forward A+ with dirk/Shawn. If either gets hurt watch out.
Center - c at best.

Prediction- team makes playoff, probably goes out first round.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Yes I do. I think this team is much better than last years because last years guard play was so pathetic. I also think that Ellis should be very interesting to see how he and dirk play the pnr. It is too bad that he seems to be such a poor shot because teams are going to go under screens all day on him and I'm interested to see what Carlisle does,about it.

I love the shooter that Calderon is, I expect he will have a standout scoring year.

Dalembert.. Who knows..

Defensively I think we are probably going to kinda stink, it will depend on how much playing time dalembert gets because he is the only real rebounder. Wright isn't and James isn't either IMO. Crowder needs to be 9th/10th man on this team to be good but he's going to be 7-8 instead.

Team has little depth it appears in the front line and big teams are going to be really tough for us.

So guard play - b+, dependent on whether Ellis comes around to Carlisle or not.
Wings - c
Power forward A+ with dirk/Shawn. If either gets hurt watch out.
Center - c at best.

Prediction- team makes playoff, probably goes out first round.

Well that's certainly a refreshing change from bitching about two years ago... Welcome to now.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Fair enough. Is there anything you like about this team, or are you just a "fan" because of geographic proximity?

I mean, maybe you should take up a hobby that doesn't make you miserable... And stop spreading your misery like herpes.

Oh I'm actually pretty happy,the stupidest front office move in history is officially over. I would be glad to quit talking about it if the dry powder proponents wouldn't keep trying to convince me they are right. But...

[marc9211]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Yes I do. I think this team is much better than last years because last years guard play was so pathetic. I also think that Ellis should be very interesting to see how he and dirk play the pnr. It is too bad that he seems to be such a poor shot because teams are going to go under screens all day on him and I'm interested to see what Carlisle does,about it.

I love the shooter that Calderon is, I expect he will have a standout scoring year.

Dalembert.. Who knows..

Defensively I think we are probably going to kinda stink, it will depend on how much playing time dalembert gets because he is the only real rebounder. Wright isn't and James isn't either IMO. Crowder needs to be 9th/10th man on this team to be good but he's going to be 7-8 instead.

Team has little depth it appears in the front line and big teams are going to be really tough for us.

So guard play - b+, dependent on whether Ellis comes around to Carlisle or not.
Wings - c
Power forward A+ with dirk/Shawn. If either gets hurt watch out.
Center - c at best.

Prediction- team makes playoff, probably goes out first round.

Haha there we go I new you had it in to you to say something good about the Mavs.. although it was barely optimism good enough for me dude.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Well that's certainly a refreshing change from bitching about two years ago... Welcome to now.

Hey, if it sucks, it sucks.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Hey, if it sucks, it sucks.

You're a stubborn sonofabitch... Never change.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

...that is also why you don't discount variance.

I just can't help but feel, as I'm sure dude does, that the Blue Colored Glasses crowd really and truly, deep down, believes that the 2011 title is somehow something less than truly "deserved"--however it is that said individual perceives the interpretation of that word, in this context.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I just can't help but feel, as I'm sure dude does, that the Blue Colored Glasses crowd really and truly, deep down, believes that the 2011 title is somehow something less than truly "deserved"--however it is that said individual perceives the interpretation of that word, in this context.

Wait, what? Didn't earn it? Biggest bunch of nonsense I've ever heard.

[oilfieldtrash]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Wait, what? Didn't earn it? Biggest bunch of nonsense I've ever heard.

Lightning in a bottle, wouldn't repeat regardless, breaking up the team for plan powder was the right thing to do, etc..

[Underdog]

Breaking up the team had absolutely nothing to do with whether or not our championship was "deserved."

And it's not exactly a stretch to think that the second-oldest team to ever win a ring would decline a year later.

Also, there was a lockout, and lockouts have a tendency to screw everything up... The last one broke up the '90s Bulls.

[kg_veteran]

Getting rid of Chandler was stupid, but I certainly see no reason to dwell on it now.

[sinsin]

"And it's not exactly a stretch to think that the second-oldest team to ever win a ring would decline a year later.

Also, there was a lockout, and lockouts have a tendency to screw everything up... The last one broke up the '90s Bulls."

This.
I seriously doubt that there was an option that could have saved the mavs from having the drop off we all witnessed the past two seasons.

Undead horses can be beaten until infinity.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I just can't help but feel, as I'm sure dude does, that the Blue Colored Glasses crowd really and truly, deep down, believes that the 2011 title is somehow something less than truly "deserved"--however it is that said individual perceives the interpretation of that word, in this context.

I can't imagine any informed fan thinks it wasn't deserved. They played the best (by far, frankly) for 21 playoff games and won the thing. That's as deserved as it gets. My comment about variance doesn't change that at all.

You can be successful and deserve something and still recognize the role of factors outside your control.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by dude1394

We would have beten okc that first year back. That's first. This isa assuming that the reast of the team didn't believe they were being gutted. But IMO I wanted jjb, desean back as well.

Fair enough... I completely disagree, but fair enough.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Breaking up the team had absolutely nothing to do with whether or not our championship was "deserved."

And it's not exactly a stretch to think that the second-oldest team to ever win a ring would decline a year later.

Also, there was a lockout, and lockouts have a tendency to screw everything up... The last one broke up the '90s Bulls.

Thank you.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Thank you.

To add: Dirk explained that it was tough on the team that lockout year, as is. If that's the case, it's not taking a radical leap to assume that an older team (the championship squad) would have struggled just as worse, if not more, in the same situation.

[Bayliss]

And it's not exactly a stretch to think that the second-oldest team to ever win a ring would decline a year later.

True. But new blood could have replaced some of that. Corey Brewer provided a spark in one game of the playoffs but didn't play at all. They obtained Rudy Fernandez instead of using their draft pick(s).

And that doesn't exclude them signing some younger guys on the market a la Brandan Wright, etc.

They may not have had the same chemistry, but the Mavs would be in the same boat as they are right now. And they would've had a chance to get another title in the meantime.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

True. But new blood could have replaced some of that.

New blood wasn't going to make up for the slip in Kidd/Terry's production any more than Dalembert is going to replace the production that Chandler gave us.

You can't just shuffle around numbers in a box score and hope for the same results...

[Bayliss]

New blood wasn't going to make up for the slip in Kidd/Terry's production any more than Dalembert is going to replace the production that Chandler gave us.

Terry and Kidd's production in the 2011-2012 season slipped more because of the writing on the wall in relation to breaking up the team and knowing they were playing out the string moreso than the decline of their actual skills.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Terry and Kidd's production in the 2011-2012 season slipped more because of the writing on the wall in relation to breaking up the team and knowing they were playing out the string moreso than the decline of their actual skills.

On what do you base that claim? Are you completely discounting the continued decline that has been evident in their games since then? And how do you reconcile your argument with everything we know about the competitive drives those two players possess?

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

On what do you base that claim? Are you completely discounting the continued decline that has been evident in their games since then? And how do you reconcile your argument with everything we know about the competitive drives those two players possess?

Yeah, I said the same thing earlier in this thread... If their stats dropped because they were sulking, then why did their stats continue to drop in New York and Boston (both competitors that they chose)? I just don't buy that excuse.

[moogle]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Terry and Kidd's production in the 2011-2012 season slipped more because of the writing on the wall in relation to breaking up the team and knowing they were playing out the string moreso than the decline of their actual skills.

That doesn't make any sense. Both players were on contract years, and had every incentive to boost their value before hitting free agency.

If you look at the big picture, you'll notice a trend. Jason Terry's stats have been decling every year since 2008. Jason Kidd's stats have been falling across the board for 10 of the past 11 years. The decline of their production can be attributed only to age. Mavs were correct to not re-sign them. Although in Kidd's case... the Mavs tried but (fortunately) failed. They dodged a bullet there.

[Bayliss]

On what do you base that claim? Are you completely discounting the continued decline that has been evident in their games since then? And how do you reconcile your argument with everything we know about the competitive drives those two players possess?

From watching them play for those however many games it was during the shortened season. Cubsan ripped out their hearts around December 2011. And it showed in their play. Age was not even close to the factor that year as it was last year with both.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

From watching them play for those however many games it was during the shortened season. Cubsan ripped out their hearts around December 2011. And it showed in their play. Age was not even close to the factor that year as it was last year with both.

So, no real basis for that claim, then.