PGT: Mavs Try Hard to Choke but Still Win

[nowhereman]

VC, Brand, Marion all strong in this one.

40 mins for Dirk. Blah.

At this point I'd probably just like to see Dominique running the team. Mike James was alright except for a coupe of hairy situations, like the attempted pass to Dirk with 11 seconds left in regulation, and the trap near the out of bounds with 30 seconds left in regulation. DC had some really boneheaded plays in the halfcourt. Mayo was fine in the open court, good defensively, but a real non-factor until late in the game.

Kaman looked terrible. If he can't get his offense going early, he's in for a rough night.

The game changed when Vince put the fifth foul on Cousins. That itself gave us at least 6 points down the stretch, and a DC layup in overtime.

[sefant77]

Why we have so many terrible bonehead TOs in crunchtime? Carter, DC, Dirk...

Why Mayo tries to dribble with 3.0 on the clock? Catch&shoot

Why every opponent hit 80% of his jumper late in the shotclock?

Why Jason Kidd boozer´d us?

[some1nw]

Some say it's an ugly win but I don't think so. We came back from a 10 point lead in the 4th quarter and took the lead. A win is a win. Hopefully this is gonna be a confidence booster for the mavs.

[nowhereman]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Why Jason Kidd boozer´d us?

LOL. It wasn't quite that bad, but yeah, it would have been really nice to have a PG that can control the flow of things down the stretch. You really miss him when he's gone I guess.

[Skywalker]

lol we won

[j0Shi]

Babysteps.

It was a W. Really not much more on the plus side.

It's funny how things started to look better with Mike James / Roddy, because they simply don't turn the ball over.

[jthig32]

I just wanted that game to end, no matter the outcome. What an awful game to watch. Has to be the most poorly officiated game I've seen in years, going both way. The Thompson technical is sure to be rescinded. Just bizarre calls all night.

I don't see how you don't start giving Bernard James regular minutes at this point. This team is going nowhere, and it's at least arguable that he's not even hurting you when he's taking minutes away from Kaman.

[markus1234]

New lineup

PG: James / Collison / Roddy
SG: Mayo / Jones
SF: Marion / Carter
PF: Dirk / Brand
C: B.James /Kaman

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

40 mins for Dirk. Blah.

I actually don't mind this, especially since they won. Can't simulate game speed in practice and Dirk is probably closer to being in normal shape than he was before the game.

[grndmstr_c]

Well that was a mess. I'll call this one more piece of evidence in favor of my theory that back-to-back's usually take a bigger toll on the start of the second game than they do on the end (unless said end stretches into overtime, in which case maybe it takes a toll on both).

The win is all Vince's. Can't expect him to do what he did tonight against the top defensive teams, but from the point when it looked like Dallas couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time up to the couple of unfortunate miscues in OT, you couldn't have possibly asked for more from him.

Another game where I liked the way Mayo played outside of scoring. And his transition offense was obviously terrific in the 4th.

Really encouraged by how well the Dirk at center lineup scrambled defensively. Not so encouraged by Dirk's offensive rust.

I would appreciate it if DC could go just one late game stretch without having a play or two where he turns into a drooling, vegetative gumball of a point guard.

I wonder if Mike James will get some of the credit for this? I sort of hope not, because he was fairly mistake-prone himself. His mistakes just somehow ended up turning out tolerably for the team. In his defense, though, at least his defensive rotations were solid.

[jacktruth]

This team is frustrating to watch. Kaman is as bad as he is good. I think he creates problems when on the floor with Dirk. I would much rather see him coming off the bench. If Cuban can't see that letting Tyson go was a mistake yet, he's just lying to himself.

Crowder needs to be more aggressive. He showed flashes of that last night and gets good results.

Overall, this team needs to go to passing kindergarten. I've never seen such lazy passes.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by jacktruth

This team is frustrating to watch. Kaman is as bad as he is good. I think he creates problems when on the floor with Dirk. I would much rather see him coming off the bench. If Cuban can't see that letting Tyson go was a mistake yet, he's just lying to himself.

Crowder needs to be more aggressive. He showed flashes of that last night and gets good results.

Overall, this team needs to go to passing kindergarten. I've never seen such lazy passes.

Crowder did not have good results last night. He sucks

[j0Shi]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Crowder did not have good results last night. He sucks

Can't understand the Crowder hate tbh. He's a rookie if you're in need of culprits for our struggles feel free to take any starters and/or the veterans.

There's no evidence that Crowder will eventually end up as a decent player in this league, but also none that he won't. To vent your wrath on him is pretty cheap imho.

[markus1234]

Now is no time to play raw rookies. You play a guy like Crowder during garbage time, not when you need wins in a close game.

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Crowder did not have good results last night. He sucks

He usually comes in, makes an open 3, and then wastes the next 10 possessions or so, with bad defense, rushed shots and headless chicken moves off the ball.

[j0Shi]

Originally Posted by markus1234

Now is no time to play raw rookies. You play a guy like Crowder during garbage time, not when you need wins in a close game.

Not sure what you are referring to, bc Crowder didn't play in crunch time last night.

€dit: I assume you mean don't play him at all. As I've already stated, I don't think we'll make the playoffs this year, so I'm with jthig and would give our rooks all the playing time they can physically handle as soon as possible.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

VC, Brand, Marion all strong in this one.

40 mins for Dirk. Blah.

At this point I'd probably just like to see Dominique running the team. Mike James was alright except for a coupe of hairy situations, like the attempted pass to Dirk with 11 seconds left in regulation, and the trap near the out of bounds with 30 seconds left in regulation. DC had some really boneheaded plays in the halfcourt. Mayo was fine in the open court, good defensively, but a real non-factor until late in the game.

Kaman looked terrible. If he can't get his offense going early, he's in for a rough night.

The game changed when Vince put the fifth foul on Cousins. That itself gave us at least 6 points down the stretch, and a DC layup in overtime.

No offense, but I don't know what's worse: this idea or your last two PGT titles.

[markus1234]

Originally Posted by j0Shi

Not sure what you are referring to, bc Crowder didn't play in crunch time last night.

Was there a garbage time last night ? No

Did Crowder get minutes last night ? Yes

Overall Crowder plays 18min, takes 2.9 threes and shoots .299 of them. A joke.

Originally Posted by j0Shi

€dit: I assume you mean don't play him at all.

Crowder should see minutes during garbage time (blow out losses...vs. SAS, MIA, LAC and so on.). And not during a crucial 3rd or 4th quarter in a close game.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2013.html <- PER , WS

[Five-ofan]

Generally speaking you have to do at least one thing really well to be an nba player. What do you think crowder does well or will potentially do really well? Shoot? Hell no. Pass? He's not bad for a wing but he doesn't have amazing court vision or anything, it's more that he doesn't screw up simple passes most of the time than anything. Attack the rim? No, not athletic enough nor does he have good enough handles. Defend? Not athletic enough to guard wings, not big or explosive enough to guard bigs.

I just don't see what you are hoping to develop him into other than a poor mans dahntay jones. Cunningham sucks but physically he's got tools that could lead him to being good. If we are gonna live with a young players struggles That's fine by let's develop someone with potential.

[jacktruth]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Crowder did not have good results last night. He sucks

What was so bad last night? He had more assists than our starting point guard and as many rebounds as our starting center.

I'm not saying he's a superstar, but when he moves with the ball (and without the ball) and tries to make something happen, often something good does happen. When he stands at the 3-pt line or just plays catch with other teammates, he does suck. Who wouldn't.

[j0Shi]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Generally speaking you have to do at least one thing really well to be an nba player. What do you think crowder does well or will potentially do really well? Shoot? Hell no. Pass? He's not bad for a wing but he doesn't have amazing court vision or anything, it's more that he doesn't screw up simple passes most of the time than anything. Attack the rim? No, not athletic enough nor does he have good enough handles. Defend? Not athletic enough to guard wings, not big or explosive enough to guard bigs.

I just don't see what you are hoping to develop him into other than a poor mans dahntay jones. Cunningham sucks but physically he's got tools that could lead him to being good. If we are gonna live with a young players struggles That's fine by let's develop someone with potential.

It's simply too early to assess in my eyes. You can't just go out and judge a player based on the first 37 games of his pro career. Obviously there are a bunch of players with more talent than him, but in general you can still hope that with time he is able to bring what he brought in college. I share your concern on defense, but:

I think he moves very well without the ball and he leads the team in steals per minute without fouling too much. He should be able to rebound a lot better and his shot has gone ice-cold, but his college numbers and start to the season (18-for-44 on threes) indicate that he could get better in these areas again. Rooks hit a wall sometimes, it just happens.

He also takes way more long shots than in college and part of it is system-based. So I think the Mavs could utilize him a a bit different, bc from what you read he used to be a good finisher around the rim in Marquette.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Generally speaking you have to do at least one thing really well to be an nba player. What do you think crowder does well or will potentially do really well? Shoot? Hell no. Pass? He's not bad for a wing but he doesn't have amazing court vision or anything, it's more that he doesn't screw up simple passes most of the time than anything. Attack the rim? No, not athletic enough nor does he have good enough handles. Defend? Not athletic enough to guard wings, not big or explosive enough to guard bigs.

I just don't see what you are hoping to develop him into other than a poor mans dahntay jones. Cunningham sucks but physically he's got tools that could lead him to being good. If we are gonna live with a young players struggles That's fine by let's develop someone with potential.

Poor mans Dahntay Jones?

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I just wanted that game to end, no matter the outcome. What an awful game to watch. Has to be the most poorly officiated game I've seen in years, going both way. The Thompson technical is sure to be rescinded. Just bizarre calls all night.

I don't see how you don't start giving Bernard James regular minutes at this point. This team is going nowhere, and it's at least arguable that he's not even hurting you when he's taking minutes away from Kaman.

Absolutely.

The way Coach has used some of these guys is very odd, Roddy, Wright, James, the influx of old PG's that weren't ever very good. I thought Roddy had a few good games in a row and then he can't hardly get any playing time last night. I have no idea what he is thinking or doing. It has to be what is happening in practice.

[nowhereman]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Absolutely.

The way Coach has used some of these guys is very odd, Roddy, Wright, James, the influx of old PG's that weren't ever very good. I thought Roddy had a few good games in a row and then he can't hardly get any playing time last night. I have no idea what he is thinking or doing. It has to be what is happening in practice.

I don't know. Roddy was absolutely awful two nights ago against the Clippers, and the game prior to that he had a really poor defensive showing. Yesterday it seemed like the only reason the team went to him was because he was the only person on the team that could run a barely decent p&r or pick and pop with Dirk.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

I don't know. Roddy was absolutely awful two nights ago against the Clippers, and the game prior to that he had a really poor defensive showing. Yesterday it seemed like the only reason the team went to him was because he was the only person on the team that could run a barely decent p&r or pick and pop with Dirk.

Well, he pulls these guys and goes back and forth and no one becomes consistent. Trying to find the hot hand between the two is one thing but there is nothing else around better than Roddy and Collison unfortunately. I'm at a point where I'd stop trying. Fisher, James enough already. We are what we are.
Maybe keep their minutes consistent and who ever is playing better let them finish the game, regardless of who starts. Collison consistently shits the bed down the stretch period.

[markus1234]

Collison never passes the ball to Dirk. Roddy at least once in a while. lol

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by markus1234

Collison never passes the ball to Dirk. Roddy at least once in a while. lol

I don't really get this either. I mean, the number one way to earn being a Maverick long term is getting Dirk the ball.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Well, he pulls these guys and goes back and forth and no one becomes consistent. Trying to find the hot hand between the two is one thing but there is nothing else around better than Roddy and Collison unfortunately. I'm at a point where I'd stop trying. Fisher, James enough already. We are what we are.
Maybe keep their minutes consistent and who ever is playing better let them finish the game, regardless of who starts. Collison consistently shits the bed down the stretch period.

Amen.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Poor mans Dahntay Jones?

i think his upside is rich man's DeMare Carroll. With more range. I know that comparison has been made before.
i see Crowder hitting the corner 3 with enough consistency in a couple years that he'll be a useful rotation/hustle guy.

as Five-O said it's a question of how he matches up on defense. No way he matches up with the 2 guards of this league. He's pretty strong and has good hands so i could see him developing into a decent if undersized defender at the 3. He could learn some from Elton Brand about lower-body leverage and footwork in a post-up situation.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by mac222b

i think his upside is rich man's DeMare Carroll. With more range. I know that comparison has been made before.
i see Crowder hitting the corner 3 with enough consistency in a couple years that he'll be a useful rotation/hustle guy.

as Five-O said it's a question of how he matches up on defense. No way he matches up with the 2 guards of this league. He's pretty strong and has good hands so i could see him developing into a decent if undersized defender at the 3. He could learn some from Elton Brand about lower-body leverage and footwork in a post-up situation.

Yea. He needs to add some tools to his offense like back to the basket post stuff, and taking his man off the dribble to the rack.

[LonghornDub]

It just pisses me off when Carter plays like this, because it proves that he's so damn effective working inside the three-point line, yet half the time he chooses to instead jack threes the moment he catches the ball.

Now, granted, I understand that his closer-in points won't be as easy to come by against good teams. But he still needs to be striving for this kind of game every single night. He's a scorer, not a shooter.

[nowhereman]

The Crowder comparisons to Carroll piss me off. Almost nothing in their games is similar.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

The Crowder comparisons to Carroll piss me off. Almost nothing in their games is similar.

Really? They are both "tweeners"(Carroll is a bit taller?- Crowder bigger built).
Neither have great handles or lift and so struggle to finish at the rim. Neither is a pure shooter with Crowder having much better potential in that regard. Both are scrappy hustlers on defense but struggle to match-up. Can u think of a better comparison? (not being sarcastic, just curious).

I still think Jae can be a useful player in the league. And I think he's one of the few youngish players Rick has handled properly minutes/exposure-wise(Barea excepted )in Dallas thus far. I'd like to see him continuing to get 12-20 mins per night, matchup dependent.

[gp_Mavs]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Well, he pulls these guys and goes back and forth and no one becomes consistent. Trying to find the hot hand between the two is one thing but there is nothing else around better than Roddy and Collison unfortunately. I'm at a point where I'd stop trying. Fisher, James enough already. We are what we are.
Maybe keep their minutes consistent and who ever is playing better let them finish the game, regardless of who starts. Collison consistently shits the bed down the stretch period.

Collison is a mess in terms of ball distribution in the late game situations, and Roddy to the point being made is a crap shoot on any given situation. I feel the organization has no choice but to continue to probe, prod, and push to get better PG consistency. Collison had the start to begin the season and it was obvious enough that there was no choice but to bring in someone to shore up the position. Fisher didn’t work out for reasons beyond the Mavs control, so now on to the next experienced PG.

Not sure why Dominique isn’t getting time though…

[j0Shi]

Originally Posted by gp_Mavs

Collison is a mess in terms of ball distribution in the late game situations, and Roddy to the point being made is a crap shoot on any given situation. I feel the organization has no choice but to continue to probe, prod, and push to get better PG consistency. Collison had the start to begin the season and it was obvious enough that there was no choice but to bring in someone to shore up the position. Fisher didn’t work out for reasons beyond the Mavs control, so now on to the next experienced PG.

This is obviously the FO's estimation of the situation as well, but "no choice" is the wrong term here. It's a gamble and it's not even clear whether it will result in more wins at the end of the day. There's a decent chance that the instability hurts more than it helps.

[grndmstr_c]

I'm not at all convinced that Booby isn't currently the Mavs' best late-game option at point. He handled the offensive responsibility very well against Utah, he's got defensive chops that neither DC or James can match, and though his shooting has been atrocious, he's at least been careful with the ball.

I'm not sure what Rick's intentions are with Mike yet. Last night could easily have been nothing more than an outlier case where nothing was working and things sort of stabilized when James was out there so Rick stuck with him; that is, as opposed to last night being a reliable indicator of how James, Booby and Darren will be used going forward. One thing that has occurred to me Re: this latest instance of the Mavs' mining for aged veteran point guards is that it could be motivated almost entirely by a realization that if Dallas does end up finding an advantageous trade this season, it's all but certain to cost them DC or Booby, in which case they'd need another point guard for the season's stretch run.

[Bayliss]

You would think Collison would be more poised at the end of games playing so much at UCLA. But Good God he has no idea of anything at the end of a game.

[nowhereman]

Originally Posted by mac222b

Really? They are both "tweeners"(Carroll is a bit taller?- Crowder bigger built).
Neither have great handles or lift and so struggle to finish at the rim. Neither is a pure shooter with Crowder having much better potential in that regard. Both are scrappy hustlers on defense but struggle to match-up. Can u think of a better comparison? (not being sarcastic, just curious).

K, Carroll's not the worst analogy, but those attributes are actually fairly common amongst small forwards that don't stick in the league very long. Carroll's taller and lighter, much more offensively aggressive/scrappy, closer to the rim, and better in transition, and slight more athletic. I also haven't seen much or any indication that Crowder is a scrappy hustler on defense, or that he struggles to match up in man defense. I think of Carroll as a 2-3, and Carroll as an undersized 3-4.

I can't think of a good analog for Crowder (a shorter, much less talented Marion? Artest without the skill or strength?), but the Carroll thing seems lazy because they both have dreads and neither are particularly (by NBA standards) athletic or talented.

[SMC0007]

Collison fails at dumping the ball over his defender to Dirk or other players way too often. He just chokes with the ball up top at the end of games. The turnover he had last night where he faked a pass and then threw it at the feet of Mayo's defender...terrible. He is much stronger early in the game and in attack mode. Maybe let Roddy bring us down the stretch.

[gp_Mavs]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Collison fails at dumping the ball over his defender to Dirk or other players way too often. He just chokes with the ball up top at the end of games. The turnover he had last night where he faked a pass and then threw it at the feet of Mayo's defender...terrible. He is much stronger early in the game and in attack mode. Maybe let Roddy bring us down the stretch.

Oh yeah I never realized how difficult the basic entry pass could be until this season with the Mavs.

[b_o_r]

That was a horrible win. We can talk about how Carter/Mayo "willed" the team to win but the Kings are just as horrible as the Mavs. I had to "lol" at John Salmons trying to be their closer.