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Old 05-14-2009, 03:14 PM   #41
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I completely agree...if the only deciding factor is the "choice" of the mother...who cares what reason guided her choice?
...and if it's not a human that is being aborted, it's certainly not a human of a specific gender (or race) that's being aborted, correct?
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Old 05-14-2009, 03:26 PM   #42
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...and if it's not a human that is being aborted, it's certainly not a human of a specific gender (or race) that's being aborted, correct?
seems sound. If abortion is only the ending of a potential human...or matter than is not human yet, thus not achieving personhood...then its only potentially male or potentially female or white or black, etc, etc. Certainly the growth's humanity would need to be established if the gender or race were to be considered. If not...its just a female thing or a male thing or a black thing, or a brown thing, or a white thing, etc. But not a person...not a human.
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Old 05-14-2009, 03:40 PM   #43
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I found it funny that in the wiki article on eugenics....when discussing those prominant names who were in support of it, the very first name mentioned is..."From its inception eugenics was supported by prominent people, including Margaret Sanger, Marie Stopes, H. G. Wells, Woodrow Wilson, Theodore Roosevelt, Emile Zola, George Bernard Shaw, John Maynard Keynes, William Keith Kellogg, Winston Churchill, Linus Pauling[11] and Sidney Webb.[12][13][14] Its most infamous proponent and practitioner was however Adolf Hitler who praised and incorporated Eugenic ideas in Mein Kampf, and emulated Eugenic legislation for the sterilization of "defectives" that had been pioneered in the United States." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

not that being in wiki makes anything true...just a funny aside.
I skimmed some of "Pivot of Civilization" where Sanger discusses eugenics. Her main complaint seemed to be that while eugenics as she understood it is effective and good, it can be too narrow in application, resulting in for example a society of only brute soldiers bred for war. She seemed to push for a hybrid where the "fit" were still diverse in talents, giving us artisans, poets, dancers, warriors, statesmen, etc.

Of course, this is from a quick skim...
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Old 05-14-2009, 03:43 PM   #44
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Why not? What is objectively wrong with this?

seriously....

I agree that there is something icky sticky eugenicky about it, but I'm seriously asking on what basis you find this to be 'not very good ethics'?
the decision to carry a fetus to term and deliver a baby should not be gender based. the sex doesn't make any difference, does it?
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Old 05-14-2009, 03:47 PM   #45
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seems sound. If abortion is only the ending of a potential human...or matter than is not human yet, thus not achieving personhood...then its only potentially male or potentially female or white or black, etc, etc. Certainly the growth's humanity would need to be established if the gender or race were to be considered. If not...its just a female thing or a male thing or a black thing, or a brown thing, or a white thing, etc. But not a person...not a human.
Exactly....if it's not wrong to kill something which is not a human life, how can it be wrong to kill something which is not a human life for the wrong reason?

Now.....I'm not suggesting we should force anyone to get an abortion, but if we subsidize abortion for black people and stupid people--do what we can to help them keep their birth rates down -- that will have the affect of...ummmm....well you know....

....not that there's anything wrong with that!!!
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Old 05-14-2009, 03:48 PM   #46
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the decision to carry a fetus to term and deliver a baby should not be gender based.
what are the appropriate criteria?
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Old 05-14-2009, 03:55 PM   #47
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what are the appropriate criteria?
mama still wants to party?
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:06 PM   #48
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what are the appropriate criteria?
seems the appropriateness is not a decision for others to make, it a decision of the mother.

your question was why basing the decision to terminate on the gender was unethical. if the mother was evaluating if she should carry to term, the gender of the baby shouldn't have any influence on that decision as it makes no difference. a male or a female baby are identical in all elements save for their gonads.
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:09 PM   #49
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seems the appropriateness is not a decision for others to make, it a decision of the mother.

your question was why basing the decision to terminate on the gender was unethical. if the mother was evaluating if she should carry to term, the gender of the baby shouldn't have any influence on that decision as it makes no difference. a male or a female baby are identical in all elements save for their gonads.
you just painted with far too wide a brush there, md. You can't possibly tell what "makes no difference" to anyone other than yourself....and I don't think you have ovaries.
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:10 PM   #50
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I skimmed some of "Pivot of Civilization" where Sanger discusses eugenics. Her main complaint seemed to be that while eugenics as she understood it is effective and good, it can be too narrow in application, resulting in for example a society of only brute soldiers bred for war. She seemed to push for a hybrid where the "fit" were still diverse in talents, giving us artisans, poets, dancers, warriors, statesmen, etc.

Of course, this is from a quick skim...
My take on her view is that she thought the appropriate course was more class based than race based (as the 'Galtonion' eugenicists emphasized)...that is, she was more concerned about the dummies than the darkies.
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:21 PM   #51
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you just painted with far too wide a brush there, md. You can't possibly tell what "makes no difference" to anyone other than yourself....and I don't think you have ovaries.
so your viewpoint is that gender does make a difference? an no I have no ovaries...but I have been complimented for my breasts.
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:22 PM   #52
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If I remove a booger from my nose, should it matter whether I do it because I hate boogers or because I hate women?
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:24 PM   #53
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seems the appropriateness is not a decision for others to make, it a decision of the mother.
i'm still not clear on what you're saying...

You say that "the gender of the baby shouldn't have any influence on that decision as it makes no difference." But let's assume for the sake of argument that it does matter to the mother -- clearly it can matter to the mother whether the baby is going to be a girl, or mentally retarded, or kind of like flacolaco.

...if the mother decides she wants to abort the baby because it does not (or will not) have testicles, is that unethical in your view? If so, why?
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:25 PM   #54
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If I remove a booger from my nose, should it matter whether I do it because I hate boogers or because I hate women?
i think it depends upon whether you normally eat your boogers and whether you normally eat....

....well.....

nevermind.
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:28 PM   #55
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so your viewpoint is that gender does make a difference?
From what I understand about abortion law, its really up to the individual woman to decide on what determining factor/s motivate her to abort her pregnancy....so issues like gender could be reasonable if it was deemed such by an individual woman. If she found out she was carrying a male and only wanted a female is no different from her deciding that she just didn't want a baby at this time at her life because it would be so inconvenient and slow down her pursuit of self advancement. That is at least how I understand the abortion law. But I am no expert.

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but I have been complimented for my breasts.
this talk just got a little hotter.
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:29 PM   #56
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seems the appropriateness is not a decision for others to make, it a decision of the mother.

your question was why basing the decision to terminate on the gender was unethical. if the mother was evaluating if she should carry to term, the gender of the baby shouldn't have any influence on that decision as it makes no difference. a male or a female baby are identical in all elements save for their gonads.
If killing a human is the decision of the mother, then you might as well love Hitler's views as well.

He decided that killing was the decision of the government and based much of his killing on religion.

It is the exact same way of thinking turned to a different direction. This is exactly why the German people allowed the holocaust -- just like you would allow it - it starts in the head with not seeing people as human. Once upon a time slaves weren't seen as human either.

Maybe you would rather the king decide, like maybe the president -- maybe the next one will want all blue eyed to be killed.

Stupid is as Stupid does, and giving the right to kill to a woman just because she is a woman is just as stupid as giving it to you or me.

Abortion isn't any different than killing millions of jews, or slaves. It is just whether or not someone in some government can justify themselves with the killing and make it law.
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:36 PM   #57
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If killing a human is the decision of the mother, then you might as well love Hitler's views as well.

He decided that killing was the decision of the government and based much of his killing on religion.

It is the exact same way of thinking turned to a different direction. This is exactly why the German people allowed the holocaust -- just like you would allow it - it starts in the head with not seeing people as human. Once upon a time slaves weren't seen as human either.

Maybe you would rather the king decide, like maybe the president -- maybe the next one will want all blue eyed to be killed.

Stupid is as Stupid does, and giving the right to kill to a woman just because she is a woman is just as stupid as giving it to you or me.

Abortion isn't any different than killing millions of jews, or slaves. It is just whether or not someone in some government can justify themselves with the killing and make it law.
your viewpoint is based on a definition you have made of when life begins. your viewpoint is extreme, and (this shouldn't surprise you) there is no basis of support for your viewpoint other than your opinion.
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:36 PM   #58
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another way of framing this....

...is it wrong to abort a girl? No, at least not as long as the mom is non-discriminating and willing to abort the baby if it is going to be a boy as well.

Hence, the 'unethical' element of killing the girl is not so much in killing the girl but in willingness to let the boy live.

this is absurd, of course, and why I say that logic of abortion inexorably leads to eugenics.
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:38 PM   #59
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i'm still not clear on what you're saying...

You say that "the gender of the baby shouldn't have any influence on that decision as it makes no difference." But let's assume for the sake of argument that it does matter to the mother -- clearly it can matter to the mother whether the baby is going to be a girl, or mentally retarded, or kind of like flacolaco.

...if the mother decides she wants to abort the baby because it does not (or will not) have testicles, is that unethical in your view? If so, why?
if you feel compelled to compare mental incapacity to being a female...well, what can I say to bring logic to the discussion?
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:44 PM   #60
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your viewpoint is based on a definition you have made of when life begins. your viewpoint is extreme, and (this shouldn't surprise you) there is no basis of support for your viewpoint other than your opinion.
Really........no basis except my opinion.

Wow

So my definition of when life begins differs from who -- I mean what percentage of people in the world?

Isn't there anyone else on this planet that believes that life begins at conception - at least when there is a heartbeat.........

I guess I am all alone and my viewpoint is extreme -- but I'll keep it anyway.

Now as to the no basis -- you are kidding/lying to yourself if you don't see a basis for it -- whether you agree or not.
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:53 PM   #61
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if you feel compelled to compare mental incapacity to being a female...well, what can I say to bring logic to the discussion?
You have yet to make anything like a cogent argument as to why you think it is unethical to abort babies on the basis of gender.

Perhaps you're abandoning the discussion, not because I've reasonably grouped females and the mentally-challenged together as groups more subject to the scourge of eugenics, but instead because you are unable to address the question?
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:57 PM   #62
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Really........no basis except my opinion.

Wow

So my definition of when life begins differs from who -- I mean what percentage of people in the world?

Isn't there anyone else on this planet that believes that life begins at conception - at least when there is a heartbeat.........

I guess I am all alone and my viewpoint is extreme -- but I'll keep it anyway.

Now as to the no basis -- you are kidding/lying to yourself if you don't see a basis for it -- whether you agree or not.
who knows what percentage of the world believes that life begins at conception vs life begins at a heartbeat vs life begins upon a central nervous system vs life begins at birth?

there is no absolute answer to the question, some believe what they believe by their own thoughts/analysis, some believe what they believe because their religious leadership told them how to believe.

I see those who believe that life begins at fertilization to have an extreme viewpoint, just as I see those who believe that life begins at birth to have an extreme viewpoint. neither of these have a basis in logic, whether you agree or not.
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:59 PM   #63
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You have yet to make anything like a cogent argument as to why you think it is unethical to abort babies on the basis of gender.

Perhaps you're abandoning the discussion, not because I've reasonably grouped females and the mentally-challenged together as groups more subject to the scourge of eugenics, but instead because you are unable to address the question?
sure have, the argument that a male child and a female child are congruent in all respects save their reproductive organs (which of course makes no difference until puberty) is a logical response.
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Old 05-14-2009, 05:02 PM   #64
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who knows what percentage of the world believes that life begins at conception vs life begins at a heartbeat vs life begins upon a central nervous system vs life begins at birth?

there is no absolute answer to the question, some believe what they believe by their own thoughts/analysis, some believe what they believe because their religious leadership told them how to believe.

I see those who believe that life begins at fertilization to have an extreme viewpoint, just as I see those who believe that life begins at birth to have an extreme viewpoint. neither of these have a basis in logic, whether you agree or not.
Then give me the logic.

I am a logic guy -- been a programmer, engineer, and network admin for 20 plus years. I deal in logic every day.

Show me the LOGIC. I can debate the logic of fertilization, I can debate the logic of heartbeat.

Show me the logic against that.


Show me the logic behind allowing a person to kill at will, compared to the logic of allowing something to survive.

Please put up the logic.
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Old 05-14-2009, 05:16 PM   #65
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the argument that a male child and a female child are congruent in all respects save their reproductive organs
so....it's wrong to select the girl for abortion because there is no difference between the boy and the girl, except those things which make boys different from girls. That line of reasoning leaves a little bit to be desired.

Are you saying that differences in reproductive organs are not a suitable basis for a mother to decide to abort her child? I think an adequate response one might make to this goes something like, "oh yeah. sez who?"

Maybe we should ask the question another way -- Of all the possible reasons a mother-not-to-be might base her decision to have an abortion, what reasons are unethical in your view?
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Old 05-14-2009, 05:18 PM   #66
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Dalmations, I'm not the one promoting an answer. you are.

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Old 05-14-2009, 05:20 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by alexamenos View Post
so....it's wrong to select the girl for abortion because there is no difference between the boy and the girl, except those things which make boys different from girls. That line of reasoning leaves a little bit to be desired.

Are you saying that differences in reproductive organs are not a suitable basis for a mother to decide to abort her child? I think an adequate response one might make to this goes something like, "oh yeah. sez who?"

Maybe we should ask the question another way -- Of all the possible reasons a mother-not-to-be might base her decision to have an abortion, what reasons are unethical in your view?
I never paused to try and make a list. do you wish to?
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Old 05-14-2009, 05:38 PM   #68
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I think it's pretty easy to draw the logical line of distinction you guys are talking around here.

In the case of aborting a healthy fetus, with no consideration given to gender, the mother makes the decision that she herself is unfit or unwilling to be a mother--to that child, or to ANY child.

In the case where the fetus is aborted for its gender, the mother is fit and willing to be a mother of a child, just not THAT child.
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Old 05-14-2009, 05:44 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Mavdog View Post
sure have, the argument that a male child and a female child are congruent in all respects save their reproductive organs (which of course makes no difference until puberty) is a logical response.
They are not congruent - else you would not be able to tell the difference between them.

And even if they were, why would that make it unethical?
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:12 PM   #70
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Why abort a fetus?

Babies taste a lot better after they put more meat on...
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:15 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavdog View Post
who knows what percentage of the world believes that life begins at conception vs life begins at a heartbeat vs life begins upon a central nervous system vs life begins at birth?

there is no absolute answer to the question, some believe what they believe by their own thoughts/analysis, some believe what they believe because their religious leadership told them how to believe.

I see those who believe that life begins at fertilization to have an extreme viewpoint, just as I see those who believe that life begins at birth to have an extreme viewpoint. neither of these have a basis in logic, whether you agree or not.
Wait........... I assumed everyone believes this thing is alive, ie it's no less alive than a single-celled organism, which is alive. I thought the debate was always where the humanity attaches, ie is it human life or non-human life? Is this wrong?
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:18 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chumdawg View Post
I think it's pretty easy to draw the logical line of distinction you guys are talking around here.

In the case of aborting a healthy fetus, with no consideration given to gender, the mother makes the decision that she herself is unfit or unwilling to be a mother--to that child, or to ANY child.

In the case where the fetus is aborted for its gender, the mother is fit and willing to be a mother of a child, just not THAT child.
In the case of rape, I'm inclined to believe the woman is thinking not THAT child.
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:39 PM   #73
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Why abort a fetus?

Babies taste a lot better after they put more meat on...
i don't know....have you ever tried a roasted first trimie with a little tobasco? kinda like veil.
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Old 07-19-2009, 12:17 PM   #74
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I think that Ginsberg woman is getting taken to task a bit too much for her statement:

Quote:
Frankly I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of...
She isn't necessarily saying that she supported using abortion to restrict the growth of populations that 'we don't want to have too many of', but instead she's saying that this was her perception at the time.

I think there was something to her perception -- she's a smart woman who was certainly tuned in to a lot of progressive arguments of the time, and if she perceived that part of the momentum behind abortion-love was a desire to control populations of people that 'we don't want to have too many of' then there was almost certainly quite a bit of reality behind that perception.
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Old 07-19-2009, 07:03 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by alexamenos View Post
took a couple of years, but I thought I'd see something like this sooner or later....

A big victory for Eugenics in Sweden

The logic is inexorable (it's not a life after all...it's a choice) -- if abortion is cool then there is nothing objectively wrong with basing abortion decisions on gender....

...or race or mental capacity....
It's like the reactions when you club a baby seal or a rat. Both acts essentially do the same thing and you end up with the same results, but like Jim Crow, it was easier just to pretend.
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Old 07-19-2009, 07:53 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexamenos View Post
I think that Ginsberg woman is getting taken to task a bit too much for her statement:



She isn't necessarily saying that she supported using abortion to restrict the growth of populations that 'we don't want to have too many of', but instead she's saying that this was her perception at the time.

I think there was something to her perception -- she's a smart woman who was certainly tuned in to a lot of progressive arguments of the time, and if she perceived that part of the momentum behind abortion-love was a desire to control populations of people that 'we don't want to have too many of' then there was almost certainly quite a bit of reality behind that perception.
She's also saying that she was wrong.
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Old 02-08-2010, 12:43 PM   #77
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Somebody explain to me how this ad is so horribly hateful and offensive.

Quote:
Terry O'Neill, the president of the National Organization for Women, said she had respect for the private choices made by women such as Pam Tebow but condemned the planned ad as "extraordinarily offensive and demeaning."
"Extraordinarily offensive and demeaning"???? Huh?

When I watch this ad I see a mother saying that although bearing and raising her child was difficult, she's extremely glad she did it....and then I see her son jump on top of her in a scene which suggests some sexual tension, but I doubt it's the oedipal overtones that sent the lunatic, unhinged abortion-loving camp into a tizzy.

It's the obvious subtext that momma Tebow's choice was a good choice (and that futures givers-of-life might think about before having their fetus ripped from their womb) that infuriates the abortion lovers.

I suspect, and I think it's a fair suspicion, that there are more than a few women who regret the choice they made so they could fit into a prom-dress or continue to climb mid-way up some meaningless corporate ladder. These women are plausibly living with their cats and eating their Ben & Jerry's and trying very, very hard not to wonder what life might be like had they not paid someone to kill that little thing inside of them that today would be their very grown child.

I think the abortion loving nuts such as those at NOW live in fear of women being confronted with the question of 'what might have been?' and especially with expressing regret over their choices. It's not choice the lovers of abortion are interested in preserving for women so much as it is abortion....they want women choosing abortion and anything that threatens this is bad, in their very demented view.
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Old 02-08-2010, 02:25 PM   #78
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Somebody explain to me how this ad is so horribly hateful and offensive.



"Extraordinarily offensive and demeaning"???? Huh?

When I watch this ad I see a mother saying that although bearing and raising her child was difficult, she's extremely glad she did it....and then I see her son jump on top of her in a scene which suggests some sexual tension, but I doubt it's the oedipal overtones that sent the lunatic, unhinged abortion-loving camp into a tizzy.

It's the obvious subtext that momma Tebow's choice was a good choice (and that futures givers-of-life might think about before having their fetus ripped from their womb) that infuriates the abortion lovers.

I suspect, and I think it's a fair suspicion, that there are more than a few women who regret the choice they made so they could fit into a prom-dress or continue to climb mid-way up some meaningless corporate ladder. These women are plausibly living with their cats and eating their Ben & Jerry's and trying very, very hard not to wonder what life might be like had they not paid someone to kill that little thing inside of them that today would be their very grown child.

I think the abortion loving nuts such as those at NOW live in fear of women being confronted with the question of 'what might have been?' and especially with expressing regret over their choices. It's not choice the lovers of abortion are interested in preserving for women so much as it is abortion....they want women choosing abortion and anything that threatens this is bad, in their very demented view.
There wasn't anything offensive or demeaning about the ad, and you hit the nail on the head. "What might have been?" is the question that they don't ever want asked.
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Old 02-08-2010, 02:34 PM   #79
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yeah....

Most (not most, make that all) of the stats I've seen on the "why's" suggest that an overwhelming majority of women who choose to kill their babies do so as a matter of expediency...not because of rape or incest or health but instead because their lives in the short run will be more convenient without than with a baby.

I don't doubt that alot of those women are hitting their 40's and 50's and thinking maybe they would be better off had they endured the hardship then.
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Old 02-09-2010, 08:35 AM   #80
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Abortion...looks like "_____ Guilt" only works when it gets "Progressives" votes...otherwise it's offensive.
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