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92bDad · 07-01-2008, 08:06 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080701/...glary_shooting

Wow, what a story. My sympathy to the criminals, who happen to be illegal aliens, may they RIP.

Thank GOD, I live in Texas, where I can protect myself, my property and that of my neighbors.

Flacolaco · 07-01-2008, 08:41 AM

The good that SHOULD come out of this, is it should make criminals more aware of what might happen to them if they enter someones home.

But it won't. Because criminals are going to be criminals no matter what, and they don't watch the news, read the internet, or listen to talk radio. So a good awareness tool that might keep other peoples homes safe, turns into just two guys who got shot over a TV or something.

I've been thinking about getting a gun ever since we moved into our house. I don't really know anything about guns, and I've never fired a hand gun before. How would I go about getting started with all of that?

u2sarajevo · 07-01-2008, 09:08 AM

Come on over to my house Flaco.... I'll show you how to shoot someone at point blank range.

92bDad · 07-01-2008, 09:10 AM

Being as you stated that you have never owned a gun or even fired a gun, I would recommend that you research and check in with a reputable firing range.

Find out what classes they have to train you on how to own and manage a gun responsibly.

I myself don't own a gun, but I have fired my fair share of guns...back in my Army days and most recently, going to the ranger with my father-in-law.

I took my sons to the range as well and they learned how to handle a gun safely.

My oldest son has a steady hand and kept his shot grouping on a dime!!! He's mentioned wanting to go into the FBI and he seems to have a knack for things that would be needed if you are in the FBI.

I'm going off a bit...bottom line, seek information and training.

Gun ownership is NOT for everyone, but everyone has the right to own guns.

You might say it's a freedom of choice. I wonder what Liberals think of the freedom of choice when it comes to Guns?

Dr.Zoidberg · 07-01-2008, 09:12 AM

Quote:

"He was scared. He was in fear of his life," he said.

That´s for sure...

Quote:

In the 911 call, a dispatcher urges Horn to stay inside his house and not risk lives.

"Don't go outside the house," the 911 operator pleaded. "You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think."

"You want to make a bet?" Horn answered. "I'm going to kill them."

After the shooting, he redialed 911. "I had no choice," he said, his voice shaking. "They came in the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick."

WOW, what a hero!

Sounds like a trigger-happy wannabe western freak.

Quote:

Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect themselves if it is reasonable to believe they are in mortal danger.

Quote:

..., but a defiant Horn confronted the men with a 12-gauge shotgun and shot both in the back.

Yeah, he probably was brutally attacked (in mortal danger) and because of that he shot both of them in the back...

Flacolaco · 07-01-2008, 09:15 AM

Actually I fired my Uncles 9mm when I was about 12

(don't tell my mom)

And u2...please don't shoot me. It was your wife's idea. I swear.

Yeah, I know I would have to be trained and all of that at a range and whatnot. Just something to think about...

dude1394 · 07-01-2008, 09:47 AM

Don't mess with Texas!

TripleDipping · 07-01-2008, 10:57 AM

The man took care of some thrash of society. Too bad some would deem his actions as racist.

Underdog · 07-01-2008, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleDipping

The man took care of some thrash of society. Too bad some would deem his actions as racist.

I don't know how you could call this "racially motivated" - the issue of race was never even brought up in the case...

Although, I do find it interesting that both men were shot in the back, even though the defendant claims it was "self defense" (but then again, when you break into somebody's house, you kinda deserve whatever you have coming to you...)

TripleDipping · 07-01-2008, 11:39 AM

Always count on the wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hor...ng_controversy

dude1394 · 07-01-2008, 11:43 AM

Nice shooting brotha'

GermanDunk · 07-01-2008, 11:43 AM

Shooting from behind is unsportsmanlike. He should have faced the intruder eye to eye or at least asked him to turn around. Clint Eastwood did so.

Dr.Zoidberg · 07-01-2008, 01:31 PM

I have nothing against someone who protects himself with a gun, if being in mortal danger. But this guy was neither feared nor in mortal danger.

Quote:

"You want to make a bet?" Horn answered. "I'm going to kill them."

Does this sound like he is frighten? No, it sounds like a person with the intention to kill someone.

Then this man said:

Quote:

"They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice!"

Oh really?

The detective who witnessed the escalation and shootings said that the two burglars

Quote:

"received gunfire from the rear"

and stated that the burglars

Quote:

ignored Mr. Horn's order to freeze

and one of them

Quote:

ran towards Joe Horn before he angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back.

So I would have understand, if the one who ran toward him would have been shot during the forward motion, but this man turned around and ran away from him. So why shoot him??? Mr. Horn was a hunter and so he had at least the choice to shoot them in the leg, if he really wanted to stop them.

What is with the other burglar??? I bet he was very shocked of the reaction of Mr. Horn and immediately ran away too, as he was also shot in the back.

If someone runs away and you shoot him, it´s not an act of protection, it´s premeditated murder.

Of course those two man were criminals, but regarding the detective they didn´t threat Mr. Horn with a gun. They´ve stolen money and jewelry from the neighbor.

A fair punishment for this men would have been prison and deportation.

In fact it was a death penalty for a burglary. Probably you have to be American to understand this, because I don´t. Where is the commensurability for this acting??? Let them run and get arrested by the police. A detective was already there...

jthig32 · 07-01-2008, 01:44 PM

I have to say, as it pertains to this example, I tend to agree with Zoidberg.

The whole point of the ability to defend your property is to protect yourself against unknown danger. If someone's breaking into your house then you can fire away, without have to first figure out whether this guy is there to take your tv or rape your wife.

And that's cool. I 100% support that.

However, the freedom to see someone breaking into someone else's house, grab your shotguen, go outside, tell the burgulars to freeze, and then shoot them as they run away is really, really pushing it. That's very close to frontier justice.

92bDad · 07-01-2008, 01:54 PM

Those of you who don't believe the guy was in the right and those of you who don't believe in gun justice...

Would you let me know your address and the dates that you or your neighbors will leave your house open.

After all, you are willing to simply give away your stuff to any thief who doesn't threaten your safety. I'll come over unarmed, walk in, look around and take what I want. I promise I wont hurt you, I'm just there to take the stuff you don't want to defend against.

For those of you who take these boards to seriously...I'm just kidding, I am not a thief and I respect another persons property...I'll even be willing to defend mine and my neighbors property if I know something is going on.

u2sarajevo · 07-01-2008, 01:55 PM

Doctor..... I'd stay clear away from Texas if I were you.

They were given fair warning to not move or else meet their maker. They made their decision.

I have no sympathy what so ever for those two. And you can bet your bottom dollar if it were me in Mr. Horn's shoes there would still be two dead thieves.

jthig32 · 07-01-2008, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u2sarajevo

Doctor..... I'd stay clear away from Texas if I were you.

They were given fair warning to not move or else meet their maker. They made their decision.

I have no sympathy what so ever for those two. And you can bet your bottom dollar if it were me in Mr. Horn's shoes there would still be two dead thieves.

Can't agree with this. That's not the purpose of the law, and not how people should interpret it. That's the Wild Wild West.

Now, do I have sympathy for the two people that died? Not really. But I would have sympathy for the poor sap that was trying to get into his house, neighbor mistook him for a burglar, and shot him as he ran away from a man standing in the dark with a shotgun. Unless someone is breaking into your house, with you and your family inside of it, you should not have the right to use stronger force than the police could.

And to 92bDad's point, I 100% believe in gun ownership, gun use, and gun justice under the right circumstances. This was not the correct circumstance, imo.

Dr.Zoidberg · 07-01-2008, 02:18 PM

I can´t notice any argument which explains, why it is necessary to shoot a thief. I am against guns, but maybe I could acquiesce in shooting a burglar in the legs for example, to stop him and then commit him to the police.

I also have no problem with:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

If someone's breaking into your house then you can fire away, without have to first figure out whether this guy is there to take your tv or rape your wife.

To shoot on a burglar, if he runs away from you, in the back, makes you a murderer. And in my world, to kill someone is a much more serious crime then to steal, isn´t it?

dude1394 · 07-01-2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

So why shoot him???

So that his miserable self couldn't rob anyone else.

dude1394 · 07-01-2008, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I have to say, as it pertains to this example, I tend to agree with Zoidberg.

The whole point of the ability to defend your property is to protect yourself against unknown danger. If someone's breaking into your house then you can fire away, without have to first figure out whether this guy is there to take your tv or rape your wife.

And that's cool. I 100% support that.

However, the freedom to see someone breaking into someone else's house, grab your shotguen, go outside, tell the burgulars to freeze, and then shoot them as they run away is really, really pushing it. That's very close to frontier justice.

should you not be able to stop someone who is stealing your stuff?

Underdog · 07-01-2008, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

should you not be able to stop someone who is stealing your stuff?

They weren't stealing HIS stuff...

dude1394 · 07-01-2008, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

They weren't stealing HIS stuff...

Should you be able to stop someone from stealing your stuff?

Dr.Zoidberg · 07-01-2008, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

So that his miserable self couldn't rob anyone else.

OK dude, let´s adopt the death penalty for every thief...

MavsX · 07-01-2008, 02:29 PM

the bottom line, if we were faced with what Mr. Horn was faced, i think some of us would do the same thing. That Sh*t is scary, at that moment in Mr. Horns life, it was him or the criminals. Looks like Mr. Horn won that battle. And i'd do the same damn thing.

TripleDipping · 07-01-2008, 02:29 PM

Those guys are repeated offenders, and are part of a burglary ring... killing them shouldn't be a crime.

jthig32 · 07-01-2008, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

should you not be able to stop someone who is stealing your stuff?

By killing them? It's a pretty slippery slope.

Let's put it this way, if someone wakes up in the middle of the night, walks into his living room, find a dude holding his tv and shoots him in the head...I'm fine with that.

If, in that same scenario, the dude drops the tv, runs out of the house, and the homeowner chases after him and shoots him in the back of the head as he reaches the street...I'm not ok with that.

And that second scenio matches pretty closely what happened in this specific situation.

dude1394 · 07-01-2008, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

OK dude, let´s adopt the death penalty for every thief...

Did'nt say that, the question is should you be able to stop someone from stealing your stuff.

Underdog · 07-01-2008, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Did'nt say that, the question is should you be able to stop someone from stealing your stuff.

Once again, nobody was stealing HIS stuff...

dude1394 · 07-01-2008, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

By killing them? It's a pretty slippery slope.

Let's put it this way, if someone wakes up in the middle of the night, walks into his living room, find a dude holding his tv and shoots him in the head...I'm fine with that.

If, in that same scenario, the dude drops the tv, runs out of the house, and the homeowner chases after him and shoots him in the back of the head as he reaches the street...I'm not ok with that.

And that second scenio matches pretty closely what happened in this specific situation.

So the guy has your stuff, you tell him to stop and he turns and runs...what then? Do you look really close to be sure he doesnt' still have your 2grand (as these guys did?) Silly imo. The robbers could stay there and be arrested or take a chance..

They chose poorly.

Dr.Zoidberg · 07-01-2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Did'nt say that, the question is should you be able to stop someone from stealing your stuff.

Read my post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

I am against guns, but maybe I could acquiesce in shooting a burglar in the legs for example, to stop him and then commit him to the police.

I also have no problem with:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

If someone's breaking into your house then you can fire away, without have to first figure out whether this guy is there to take your tv or rape your wife.

jthig32 · 07-01-2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Once again, nobody was stealing HIS stuff...

This is also a good point. Once you're allowed to shoot people breaking into someone else's house, then you're REALLY talking about vigilante justice.

Underdog · 07-01-2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleDipping

Those guys are repeated offenders, and are part of a burglary ring... killing them shouldn't be a crime.

Mr. Horn had no way of knowing that...

dude1394 · 07-01-2008, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Once again, nobody was stealing HIS stuff...

Again...should you be able to keep someone from stealing your stuff.

If I'm on the jury, I vote to acquit, every time. And quite frankly, if I'm this guys neighbor I'm pretty happy about it.

jthig32 · 07-01-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

So the guy has your stuff, you tell him to stop and he turns and runs...what then? Do you look really close to be sure he doesnt' still have your 2grand (as these guys did?) Silly imo. The robbers could stay there and be arrested or take a chance..

They chose poorly.

Well, I personally wouldn't kill him just to save my stuff. I'm fine with shooting someone inside your home because it's all about a possible threat.

If he's leaving, empty handed or not, I might be interested in stopping him, but I'm not looking to kill him.

dude1394 · 07-01-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

Read my post:

What if you hit him in the legs in an artery and he bled to death? This isn't a movie.

dude1394 · 07-01-2008, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well, I personally wouldn't kill him just to save my stuff. I'm fine with shooting someone inside your home because it's all about a possible threat.

If he's leaving, empty handed or not, I might be interested in stopping him, but I'm not looking to kill him.

How are you going to stop him?

Underdog · 07-01-2008, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Again...should you be able to keep someone from stealing your stuff.

If I'm on the jury, I vote to acquit, every time. And quite frankly, if I'm this guys neighbor I'm pretty happy about it.

Frankly, if I'm this guy's neighbor, I'd wonder if he'd shoot me for stepping on his lawn...