Mavs get Porzingis

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by tap2390

This. We as fans collectively lack patience and for some reason Mavs fans seem especially prone to cynicism and undervaluing their own players.

Mavs fans are no different than any other sports fans. All sports fans overreact both positively and negatively in pretty much equal amounts. When the team is good, they're locks to win the championship and everyone should make the all-star team. When the team loses a few games, the sky is falling, the coach and GM need to fired and everyone needs to be traded.

I'll say that KP is probably a top 50 player... but not much higher than that. Arguably top 40, but no way am I going higher than 35-ish. Top 20 is frankly laughable. Sure, he has stretches where he plays at an all-nba level, maybe even more than that, but those are way too few and far between. You can't just look at the absolute best of Porzingis and then ignore how maddeningly inconsistent he is, either in terms of his production or simply his availablility.

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

*sigh* At this point, I'm ready to dump him for just about ANYTHING and be done with it. Keeping him just feels like sunk cost.

I posted that on Feb. 28. The Mavs had an entire week of rest due to the "Snowpacalypse," and yet KP still missed three straight games with back soreness. That was a breaking point for me. "This guy gets injured even when he's not playing, " I thought. I was ready to trade him for garbage at that point. Now I'll admit that was an overreaction.... but so is calling him a top 20 player after like 5 good games.

KP has played very well since missing those three games. In those five games, he's averaging over 50% from the field and over 40% from three. That's elite. But do I trust him to keep that up for the rest of the season and into the playoffs without getting hurt? Hell no. Even when he's not hurt, he has a tendency to shoot like 8-12 from three on one night, and then like 1-8 the next night. And when he's not hitting his threes, he's outright bad.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...ced_stats::per

Here's a list of all NBA players this year ranked by PER. KP isn't even on it... I assume because he hasn't played enough games?? (A common theme with him.) A look through the top 50 and I would take all but a handful of them over KP.

My honest, non-emotional take on him, having watched his entire NBA career up to this point (not just with the Mavs) is that he's a pretty good, but not great player, who is way too injury prone for me to feel comfortable relying on him to be anything more than a team's third option.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

So your saying there's 50 players this year averaging 21 PPG, 9 Rebounds and 2 Blocks while shooting 48% from the FG & 35% from 3 with a per of 21.50?

If he can stay on the court...yes. Absolutely. It is not about ability with him. It's about consistently being on the floor.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by Unicorn

Today he is in top 32 in scoring, top 17 in rebounds, top 8 in Blocks

Great. Again, it's not about ability. It's about being on the court consistently. He will probably miss 20+ games this year. He did the same last year in a shortened season. He missed the entire season the year before. He missed 34 the year before..16 the year before.. and 10 the year before.

He has played in 60% of regular season games in his career. That's awful. That doesn't even include missing three games in the playoffs when the Mavs had an opportunity to advance last year.

With that being said, I have not one time advocated trading the guy. He is supremely talented. But before I start anointing him as one of the top players in the league, I have to see him on the court a lot more often.

[dirt_dobber]

Player A: 23 games played this season, 20.8 points, 8.4 rebounds, FG 49.2%, 3-point 37.2%, FT 83.8.

Player B: 23 games played, 22.5 points, 8.4 rebounds, FG 53.3%, 3-point 29.3%, FT 71.5%.

Player A is @kporzee
Player B is @AntDavis23, out at least 2 more weeks with leg issues.

[dirt_dobber]

Player A: 23 games played this season, 20.8 points, 8.4 rebounds, FG 49.2%, 3-point 37.2%, FT 83.8.

Player B: 23 games played, 22.5 points, 8.4 rebounds, FG 53.3%, 3-point 29.3%, FT 71.5%.

Player A is @kporzee
Player B is @AntDavis23, out at least 2 more weeks with leg issues.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by dirt_dobber

Player A: 23 games played this season, 20.8 points, 8.4 rebounds, FG 49.2%, 3-point 37.2%, FT 83.8.

Player B: 23 games played, 22.5 points, 8.4 rebounds, FG 53.3%, 3-point 29.3%, FT 71.5%.

Player A is @kporzee
Player B is @AntDavis23, out at least 2 more weeks with leg issues.

Those stats are convenient atm.

Player A missed the playoffs and start of this season.
Player B won a title and has a great chance to repeat.

Player A is not a noteworthy defender.
Player B is a defensive stud.

[dirt_dobber]

AND ---
And in less minutes (KP) 32.8 vs (AD) 30.3
And ~ 2 1/3 years younger

[dirt_dobber]

AND ---
And in less minutes (KP) 32.8 vs (AD) 30.3
And ~ 2 1/3 years younger

[Thespiralgoeson]

** double post

[Thespiralgoeson]

We're really comparing KP to Anthony friggin Davis? Let's set aside those cherry-picked numbers and compare their resumes, shall we?

Anthony Davis- 8x all-star. 4x all-nba first team. 2x all-defensive first team. 2x all-defensive second team. NBA champion.

Kristaps Porzingis- 1x all star.

KP's numbers are indeed comparable to AD's so far this year. But all that shows is that AD is having a poor season by his standards. Not that KP is remotely on his level.

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Those stats are convenient atm.

Player A missed the playoffs and start of this season.
Player B won a title and has a great chance to repeat.

Player A is not a noteworthy defender.
Player B is a defensive stud.

"Defensive stud" is an understatement. AD is one of the best defensive big men the game has ever seen. He's also the best lob-finisher ever. AD is a generational talent. He's probably a top 40 all time player, and will probably end his career higher than that. KP on the other hand will probably end his career without ever making an all-NBA team.

[dirt_dobber]

nah Thespiralgoeson - I'm not saying that KP is better - or even as good as - AD.
Just pointing out that 20 and 10 guys are hard to find.
Your point about AD's career is spot on and I agree with you.

[dirt_dobber]

**damn** double post

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by dirt_dobber

nah Thespiralgoeson - I'm not saying that KP is better - or even as good as - AD.
Just pointing out that 20 and 10 guys are hard to find.
Your point about AD's career is spot on and I agree with you.

Fair enough. KP does deserve credit. For a guy that a lot people- myself included- just wanted to be rid of earlier in the season, he has played through the adversity and seems like he's turned it around. He seems like he's found himself on defense again, and thank heavens for that.

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Great. Again, it's not about ability. It's about being on the court consistently. He will probably miss 20+ games this year. He did the same last year in a shortened season. He missed the entire season the year before. He missed 34 the year before..16 the year before.. and 10 the year before.

He has played in 60% of regular season games in his career. That's awful. That doesn't even include missing three games in the playoffs when the Mavs had an opportunity to advance last year.

With that being said, I have not one time advocated trading the guy. He is supremely talented. But before I start anointing him as one of the top players in the league, I have to see him on the court a lot more often.

Yes it is about ability. He is a rather one dimensional player who isn't really a creator on offense and has actually rather poor touch inside 10 feet for his height. I highly advocate moving Porzingis for a true 2nd create his own offense type scorer. It is laughable that Cuban would say he is a top 20 player. That would imply he is better than the best person on a dozen teams in the league. I can't think of one team in league where he would be the best player but I can think of most of the good teams where he would be lucky to be the 3rd best player on team.

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by dirt_dobber

nah Thespiralgoeson - I'm not saying that KP is better - or even as good as - AD.
Just pointing out that 20 and 10 guys are hard to find.
Your point about AD's career is spot on and I agree with you.

Let me know when he becomes a 20 and 10 guy. He is like a 20 and 8.5 or 9 guy.

[EricaLubarsky]

I mean, no one is arguing about KP being the perfect choice

We just give him a chance and almost get value for him or we dump him for scraps and end up a worse team while giving two future first round picks.

[EricaLubarsky]

I mean, no one is arguing about KP being the perfect choice

We just give him a chance and almost get value for him or we dump him for scraps and end up a worse team while giving two future first round picks.

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I mean, no one is arguing about KP being the perfect choice

We just give him a chance and almost get value for him or we dump him for scraps and end up a worse team while giving two future first round picks.

Perhaps someone will be enamored by his Unicorness and bite on a trade that lands us a significant piece of the puzzle. Not advocating dumping for scraps. Keep him if that's the case.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by Zeus

Perhaps someone will be enamored by his Unicorness and bite on a trade that lands us a significant piece of the puzzle. Not advocating dumping for scraps. Keep him if that's the case.

At this point, he is going to have to prove that he can stay on the court before you get anything remotely close to dollar to dollar value for the guy.

[MFFL]

If KP can be healthy for this playoff run I don't care how many regular season games he misses

[EricaLubarsky]

March - 21pts, 11reb, 2ast, 1blk on almost 50/40/82

But yeah, it only counts if he actually stays healthy when it matters (playoffs)

[SMC0007]

KP scoring and rebounding is great. Kp getting 5 assists is big for us.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

KP scoring and rebounding is great. Kp getting 5 assists is big for us.

Yeah I think the biggest step he's yet to take is his passing.

Rick doesn't seem to be even trying to develop a PnR/PnP game for KP/Doncic, instead preferring to do a euro-flow offense, which definitely fits Doncic's passing game and the rest of the team has gotten it. When KP learns how to not only get the pass in the flow but also keep it moving, we could be really deadly. We've seen flashes for sure

[turin]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

KP scoring and rebounding is great. Kp getting 5 assists is big for us.

I've always thought KP was a very good passer and would like to see more offense run through him as a facilitator. He's not going to create his own shot much, but at 7'3", dump the ball into him at the post and let him make a decision on what to do - pass out, hit cutters, et al. This works really well with Jokic in Denver, and I see no reason why this can't be explored with KP. KP doesn't have to be Jokic to be effective in this role. The lack of KP being used in this role should squarely be placed upon RC. I don't think it's the case that all of a sudden KP is a very good passer. He's just been poorly utilized. I think it's ridiculous how often he has been utilized like the world's tallest shooting guard on the offensive side. SMH

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by turin

I've always thought KP was a very good passer and would like to see more offense run through him as a facilitator. He's not going to create his own shot much, but at 7'3", dump the ball into him at the post and let him make a decision on what to do - pass out, hit cutters, et al. This works really well with Jokic in Denver, and I see no reason why this can't be explored with KP. KP doesn't have to be Jokic to be effective in this role. The lack of KP being used in this role should squarely be placed upon RC. I don't think it's the case that all of a sudden KP is a very good passer. He's just been poorly utilized. I think it's ridiculous how often he has been utilized like the world's tallest shooting guard on the offensive side. SMH

I’d like to see more of this too. KP is reallllly slow to feel the double team coming though and compounds this by often bringing the ball down low. I’d like to see him catch it and hold it high— he’s like 7’3! Make him watch Kevin McHale highlights on a loop or something.

It can be taught or learned though; Dirk had this problem and it was part of our 2006-7 problems. He became a MUCH better passer out of the post by ‘11.

[Dallas41]

Has Kp changed anyone mind yet?

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...espn:nba:teams

“We obviously think Porziņģis is a great young talent, similar in many ways to Dirk [Nowitzki],” Carlisle told ESPN Radio. “This is kind of a Dirk-and-[Steve] Nash type of situation, only these guys are taller.”

Dallas is 20-11 overall and 16-7 in games Porziņģis has played since Feb. 4, a stretch during which he’s averaging 21.5 points, 9.8 rebounds, 1.9 assists and 1.7 blocks in 31.1 minutes per game while shooting 49.5 percent from the field and connecting on 40.7 percent of his 6.3 threes a night. Meanwhile, the Mavericks offense, which had averaged 110.9 points per 100 possessions prior to the rotation switch, has surged to 117.8 points per 100 across the 31 games since then.

It’s the longest sustained stretch of elite-level individual offense Porziņģis has put together since the ACL injury. But there’s also been ample evidence throughout his Mavericks career that his mere presence on the floor is a net positive for the team’s offense.

[Dallas41]

Has Kp changed anyone mind yet?

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...espn:nba:teams

“We obviously think Porziņģis is a great young talent, similar in many ways to Dirk [Nowitzki],” Carlisle told ESPN Radio. “This is kind of a Dirk-and-[Steve] Nash type of situation, only these guys are taller.”

Dallas is 20-11 overall and 16-7 in games Porziņģis has played since Feb. 4, a stretch during which he’s averaging 21.5 points, 9.8 rebounds, 1.9 assists and 1.7 blocks in 31.1 minutes per game while shooting 49.5 percent from the field and connecting on 40.7 percent of his 6.3 threes a night. Meanwhile, the Mavericks offense, which had averaged 110.9 points per 100 possessions prior to the rotation switch, has surged to 117.8 points per 100 across the 31 games since then.

It’s the longest sustained stretch of elite-level individual offense Porziņģis has put together since the ACL injury. But there’s also been ample evidence throughout his Mavericks career that his mere presence on the floor is a net positive for the team’s offense.

[Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

Has Kp changed anyone mind yet?

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...espn:nba:teams

“We obviously think Porziņģis is a great young talent, similar in many ways to Dirk [Nowitzki],” Carlisle told ESPN Radio. “This is kind of a Dirk-and-[Steve] Nash type of situation, only these guys are taller.”

Dallas is 20-11 overall and 16-7 in games Porziņģis has played since Feb. 4, a stretch during which he’s averaging 21.5 points, 9.8 rebounds, 1.9 assists and 1.7 blocks in 31.1 minutes per game while shooting 49.5 percent from the field and connecting on 40.7 percent of his 6.3 threes a night. Meanwhile, the Mavericks offense, which had averaged 110.9 points per 100 possessions prior to the rotation switch, has surged to 117.8 points per 100 across the 31 games since then.

It’s the longest sustained stretch of elite-level individual offense Porziņģis has put together since the ACL injury. But there’s also been ample evidence throughout his Mavericks career that his mere presence on the floor is a net positive for the team’s offense.

And yet people want to reduce him to a role player.

[Dallas41]

Originally Posted by Skywalker

And yet people want to reduce him to a role player.

Yeah him and Luka just need better surrounding players.

Give them that and I believe KP is good enough to be your 2nd option on a contending team.

[turin]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

Yeah him and Luka just need better surrounding players.

Give them that and I believe KP is good enough to be your 2nd option on a contending team.

I agree 100%. The question is whether or not the existing coaching staff can realize that potential. I am less confident in the coaches being up to the task than I am of KP being able to fill that role.

[Dallas41]

Originally Posted by turin

I agree 100%. The question is whether or not the existing coaching staff can realize that potential. I am less confident in the coaches being up to the task than I am of KP being able to fill that role.

well it took them 60 games but at least they are finally getting him involved more in the 4th qtr's.

He had a really nice drive last night late in the game where he put the ball on the floor and split two defenders for a bucket.

[turin]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

well it took them 60 games but at least they are finally getting him involved more in the 4th qtr's.

He had a really nice drive last night late in the game where he put the ball on the floor and split two defenders for a bucket.

KP is way more skilled imo than people give him credit for. I actually think he's a very good ball handler. His main issue is his size. He is so tall and long that even though he has excellent handles, the ball travels too far and too high when he dribbles due to his size as compared to other players, so it is so much easier for players to swipe at the ball. You are not going to see KP get down and dribble 18-24" off the floor while making his move. His size just doesn't allow for such compact motion, which is a very different thing than not having dribbling skills. jmho

[dirt_dobber]

Originally Posted by Zeus

Let me know when he becomes a 20 and 10 guy. He is like a 20 and 8.5 or 9 guy.

as of yesterday - 20.7 points and 9.3 reb - getting closer.

[EricaLubarsky]

I think he has two issues

1) he’s fragile. Literally made of glass.

2) he doesn’t really get along with Doncic. No on-court chemistry and you even look at the game winner and KP seems unhappy and barely congratulated him.

[turin]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I think he has two issues

1) he’s fragile. Literally made of glass.

2) he doesn’t really get along with Doncic. No on-court chemistry and you even look at the game winner and KP seems unhappy and barely congratulated him.

In Kp's defense, load management contributes enormously to this perception. His most recent injury was due to knocking knees iirc. I may be wrong on that account, but if this is the case, then I'm not sure I'd call that glass. He's 7'3" so him knocking knees is different physically than smaller players, and smaller players alse get injured at times when this happens. It could just be bad luck, but there's no denying concerns regarding injury, especially the cumulative effect of prior injuries.

[EricaLubarsky]

I think he has two issues

1) he’s fragile. Literally made of glass.

2) he doesn’t really get along with Doncic. No on-court chemistry and you even look at the game winner and KP seems unhappy and barely congratulated him.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I think he has two issues

1) he’s fragile. Literally made of glass.

2) he doesn’t really get along with Doncic. No on-court chemistry and you even look at the game winner and KP seems unhappy and barely congratulated him.

I don't get the sense that KP doesn't get along with him. Like, maybe they're not besties, but I don't have enough proof yet that there is that big of an issue. I would love to see some more video and what not if they don't get along. I am interested in this theory that has been floating around for a bit now.

That game winner, I didn't see him unhappy about it. I think like many other teammates, they didn't know if it was off in time or behind the 3pt line. JJ Reddick said on his podcast that from the bench angle it looked like he just hit a runner from around the free throw line. The clips I found of the replays didn't show much of KP after the fact aside from waving his hands up to say its good, then looking around to see what the call was going to be.

[EricaLubarsky]

I mean watch for KP. He:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzzCtxVxRKA

1) begs for the ball
2) Looks unhappy
3) Walks away
4) Never once congratulates Doncic

[EricaLubarsky]

I mean watch for KP. He:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzzCtxVxRKA

1) begs for the ball
2) Looks unhappy and holds up a couple of fingers
3) Walks away
4) Never once congratulates Doncic

[Melonhead]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I think he has two issues

1) he’s fragile. Literally made of glass.

2) he doesn’t really get along with Doncic. No on-court chemistry and you even look at the game winner and KP seems unhappy and barely congratulated him.

Im not sure if its that he doesnt get along with specifically Luka. Maybe he envisioned more of sharing the spotlight with him, more of a star ish like he had in NY.