Freedom of expression and islam

[Mavdog]

this is unfolding to be a major international flap. it reveals much about the traditional limits of free speech in islamic societies, and how they clash with western ideals.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Denmark refuses to apologize over Prophet cartoons By Karin Lundback
Sun Jan 29, 5:52 PM ET



Denmark's Prime Minister said on Sunday his government could not act against satirical cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed after Libya closed its embassy in Copenhagen amid growing Muslim anger over the dispute.

The newspaper Jyllands-Posten had not intended to insult Muslims when it published the drawings, Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen said, referring to an editorial on the paper's Web site in Danish and Arabic.

But while Rasmussen tried to assuage Muslim anger, Libya on Sunday closed its embassy in Denmark in protest at the drawings.

Earlier this week, Saudi Arabia recalled its ambassador from Denmark and Saudi religious leaders have urged a boycott of Danish products.

"Because the Danish media had continued to show disrespect to the Prophet Mohammed and because the Danish authorities failed to take any responsible action on that, Libya decided to close its embassy in Copenhagen," the Libyan Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

It also threatened to take unspecified "economic measures" against Denmark.

EU trade chief Peter Mandelson met a Saudi minister at a meeting in the Swiss mountain resort of Davos on Sunday and "urged the minister to convey the seriousness of this issue to his government," his spokesman said.

"Any boycott of Danish goods would be seen as a boycott of European goods," said spokesman Peter Power.

DEMONSTRATION

Islam considers images of prophets disrespectful and caricatures of them blasphemous.

Since Jyllands-Posten published the drawings in September, the Danish government has repeatedly defended the right of free speech.

"The government can in no way could influence the media. And the Danish government and the Danish nation as such can not be held responsible for what is published in independent media," Fogh Rasmussen said.

The newspaper has not apologized for publishing the drawings, which have caused widespread anger among Muslims around the world.

In a demonstration on the West Bank, members of Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades threatened Danes in the area and told them to leave immediately, the Danish news agency Ritzau reported on Sunday.

The demonstrators burned the Danish flag and called on the Palestinian authorities to cut diplomatic ties with Denmark, Ritzau said.

"We are sorry the matter has reached these proportions and repeat that we had no intention to offend anyone, and that we as the rest of the Danish society respect freedom of religion," the newspaper's editor-in-chief Carsten Juste said in the editorial.

Fogh Rasmussen was speaking at a joint news conference with visiting Afghan President Hamid Karzai, who said he was satisfied with the newspaper's explanation and the Danish government's view.

"Prime Minister Rasmussen explained Denmark's position on that (the drawings), which was very satisfactory to me as a Muslim," Karzai said.

The Danish government has broad public backing for it stance on the cartoons. An opinion poll showed that 79 percent of Danes think Fogh Rasmussen should not issue an apology and 62 percent say the newspaper should not apologize.
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I found this page with several of the drawings:
http://www.newspaperindex.com/blog/2...posten-racism/

[dude1394]

It seems to dovetail with Bernard Lewis's assertion that muslim countries are torn up with insecurity. They just keep getting their society passed up by christian and secular peoples.

It's the one thing that I fear is that Jacque Chirac and the french assert that islam and democracy cannot co-exist. That would mean that we are going to have to pull an Ann Coulter on them.

[dude1394]

Littlegreenfootballs has an idea. Buy Danish..


http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/21097.html

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...-Boycott#c0145

----


John Zimmerman is right. The Muslim countries have chosen to pressure liberal little Denmark in order to teach the media and governments, which stand by them, a lesson which does not bode well for free speech or satire. Kuwait has joined the Saudi boycott (the Saudi market alone is worth 1.2 billion) and I suspect the rest will follow. So, here is a plea from my Danish friends:

"If you Americans look with this great sympathy on our case, couldn't you then raise a consumer support of DK in the US? The opposite of a boycott. A movement of: "Buy Danish!" Please?

You can easily eat and digest all our famous Danish cheese at your millions of breakfast-tables from Seattle to Atlanta. Then the boycott (which is escalating fast down there now) will be harmless.

Well, we can and should. In fact the idea immediately occurred to the readers of Charles of LGF who was kind enough to post the news about the Saudi boycott on his popular site. They recommended you buy not only the always delicious Danish butter cookies but also:

Danish Havarti cheese

Carlsberg and Tuborg Beers.

Arla owns White Clover Dairy, a Wisconsin company so buy that brand. It comes under White Clover and Holland Farm.

Danish Crown hams ( DAK (sold at Sam clubs)... baby back ribs, because they come from Denmark.

You shop online at The Danish Foodshop and Danish Deli Foods.

You can also buy gorgious Danish porcelain

UPDATE: First, the speed with which this movement took flight is amazing and encouraging. Thanks, guys, for helping spread in on your blogs. The boycott is gathering steam. Our old friend Libya also withdrew its ambassador. But the Danes are standing firm and the EU (for the moment) is standing by them:

EU trade chief Peter Mandelson met a Saudi minister at a meeting in the Swiss mountain resort of Davos on Sunday and "urged the minister to convey the seriousness of this issue to his government," his spokesman said.

"Any boycott of Danish goods would be seen as a boycott of European goods," said spokesman Peter Power.

Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 at 4:50 PM | Comments (18) | Return

[Epitome22]

Thats the best idea I've heard all week.

[kg_veteran]

Humorous story, because the only reason that Muslims have such a presence in Denmark is because of the religious freedoms espoused by the West. Now that they're there, they want to try and censor someone else's liberties.

[FishForLunch]

"Any boycott of Danish goods would be seen as a boycott of European goods," said spokesman Peter Power.

What is EU going to do boycott buying oil from Saudi Arabia? Ha Ha.....buch of jokers

[Usually Lurkin]

Our man Bill seems to have gotten the Nazis/Jews metaphor backward:


http://www.breitbart.com/news/na/060....v8vrasnt.html

Clinton warns of rising anti-Islamic feeling
Jan 30 10:15 AM US/Eastern
Email this story

Former US president Bill Clinton warned of rising anti-Islamic prejudice, comparing it to historic anti-Semitism as he condemned the publishing of cartoons depicting Prophet Mohammed in a Danish newspaper.

"So now what are we going to do? ... Replace the anti-Semitic prejudice with anti-Islamic prejudice?" he said at an economic conference in the Qatari capital of Doha.



"In Europe, most of the struggles we've had in the past 50 years have been to fight prejudices against Jews, to fight against anti-Semitism," he said.

Clinton described as "appalling" the 12 cartoons published in a Danish newspaper in September depicting Prophet Mohammed and causing uproar in the Muslim world.

"None of us are totally free of stereotypes about people of different races, different ethnic groups, and different religions ... there was this appalling example in northern Europe, in Denmark ... these totally outrageous cartoons against Islam," he said.

. . .

[sike]

wow. Now that's zeal.

[FishForLunch]

In India they destroyed a Mosque and burn Korans whenever they have their chance. So why are the muslims so upset only about the Danish people not apologising? You know this is all about the rulers if these countries trying to divert the attention of their restless people.

[dude1394]

this is rich...so france publishes the cartoons and the guy is fired.

The managing editor of France Soir, who published the Danish Mohammed cartoons as a gesture of support for free speech, has been fired, and the owner of the paper has issued a groveling apology. (Hat tip: LGF readers.)

France Soir originally said it had published the images in full to show “religious dogma” had no place in a secular society.

But late on Wednesday its owner, Raymond Lakah, said he had removed managing editor Jacques Lefranc “as a powerful sign of respect for the intimate beliefs and convictions of every individual”.

Mr Lakah said: “We express our regrets to the Muslim community and all people who were shocked by the publication.”

The president of the French Council of the Muslim Faith (CFCM), Dalil Boubakeur, had described France Soir’s publication as an act of “real provocation towards the millions of Muslims living in France”.

But here are cartoons from islamistad...


The cartoon above, clearly depicting the railroad to the death camp at Auschwitz-Birkenau – but with Israeli flags replacing the Nazi ones – is from the Jordanian newspaper Ad-Dustur (October 19, 2003). The sign in Arabic reads: “Gaza Strip or the Israeli Annihilation Camp.” This accentuates the widespread libel that Israel’s policies towards the Palestinians have been comparable to Nazi actions towards Jews. Jordan is supposedly a moderate country at peace with Israel.


In this cartoon, from Al-Watan newspaper in Qatar (June 23, 2002), Ariel Sharon is shown watching on the sidelines as an Israeli plane crashes into New York’s World Trade Center. The Arabic words alongside the Twin Towers are “The Peace.” This cartoon restates the widely held myth in the Arab world that Israel and the Jews were responsible for the 9/11 attacks which were in fact carried out by al-Qaeda.


sharon chopping up hamas children..

And more..
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm

I say F'em.

[Mavdog]

yes dude, the irony is the muslim (or more accurate the arab) press has printed images that have clearly been even more despicable than the danish drawings. I guess since they didn't have any "prophets" in them those caricatures are OK?

It appears our government is trying to walk a very thin line here.
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U.S. Calls Muhammad Drawings 'Offensive'
By QASSIM ABDEL-ZAHRA, Associated Press

Tens of thousands of angry Muslims marched through Palestinian cities, burning the Danish flag and calling for vengeance Friday against European countries where caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad were published. In Washington, the State Department criticized the drawings, calling them "offensive to the beliefs of Muslims."

While recognizing the importance of freedom of the press and expression, State Department press officer Janelle Hironimus said these rights must be coupled with press responsibility.

"Inciting religious or ethnic hatred in this manner is not acceptable," Hironimus said. "We call for tolerance and respect for all communities and for their religious beliefs and practices."

Angry protests against the drawings spread in the Muslim world.

In Iraq, thousands demonstrated after mosque services, and the country's leading Shiite cleric denounced the drawings. About 4,500 people rallied in Basra and hundreds at a Baghdad mosque. Danish flags were burned at both demonstrations.

Muslims in Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia and Malaysia demonstrated against the European nations whose papers published them.

The caricatures, including one depicting the Muslim prophet wearing a turban fashioned into a bomb, were reprinted in papers in Norwegian, French, German and even Jordanian after first appearing in a Danish paper in September. The drawings were republished after Muslims decried the images as insulting to their prophet. Dutch-language newspapers in Belgium and two Italian right-wing papers reprinted the drawings Friday.

Islamic law, based on clerics' interpretation of the Quran and the sayings of the prophet, forbids depiction's of the Prophet Muhammad and other major religious figures — even positive ones — to prevent idolatry. Shiite Muslim clerics differ in that they allow images of their greatest saint, Ali, the prophet's son-in-law, though not Muhammad.

Danish Prime Minister Fogh Rasmussen, in a meeting with the Egyptian ambassador, reiterated his stance that the government cannot interfere with issues concerning the press. On Monday, he said his government could not apologize on behalf of a newspaper, but that he personally "never would have depicted Muhammad, Jesus or any other religious character in a way that could offend other people."

Early Friday, Palestinian militants threw a bomb at a French cultural center in Gaza City, and many Palestinians began boycotting European goods, especially those from Denmark.

"Whoever defames our prophet should be executed," said Ismail Hassan, 37, a tailor who marched through the pouring rain along with hundreds of others in the West Bank city of Ramallah.

"Bin Laden our beloved, Denmark must be blown up," protesters in Ramallah chanted.

In mosques throughout Palestinian cities, clerics condemned the cartoons. An imam at the Omari Mosque in Gaza City told 9,000 worshippers that those behind the drawings should have their heads cut off.

"If they want a war of religions, we are ready," Hassan Sharaf, an imam in Nablus, said in his sermon.

About 10,000 demonstrators, including gunmen from the Islamic militant group Hamas firing in the air, marched through Gaza City to the Palestinian legislature, where they climbed on the roof, waving green Hamas banners.

"We are ready to redeem you with our souls and our blood our beloved prophet," they chanted. "Down, Down Denmark."

Thousands of protesters in the center of Nablus burned at least 10 Danish flags. In Jenin, about 1,500 people demonstrated, burning Danish dairy products. Hundreds protested in Jericho, and protests were held in towns throughout Gaza.

Fearing an outbreak of violence, Israel barred all Palestinians under age 45 from praying at Jerusalem's Al Aqsa Mosque compound, Islam's third holiest site.

Nevertheless, about 100 men chanting Islamic slogans and carrying a green Hamas flag demonstrated outside Jerusalem's Old City on Friday afternoon. The crowd scattered when police on horseback arrived, and some of the protesters threw rocks. Police broke up a second demonstration at Damascus Gate with tear gas and stun grenades.

In Iraq, the country's top Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, decried the drawings but did not call for protests.

"We strongly denounce and condemn this horrific action," he said in a statement posted on his Web site and dated Tuesday.

Al-Sistani, who wields enormous influence over Iraq's majority Shiites, made no call for protests and suggested that militant Muslims were partly to blame for distorting Islam's image.

He referred to "misguided and oppressive" segments of the Muslim community and said their actions "projected a distorted and dark image of the faith of justice, love and brotherhood."

"Enemies have exploited this ... to spread their poison and revive their old hatreds with new methods and mechanisms," he said.

The drawings were first published in September in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten. The issue reignited last week after Saudi Arabia recalled its ambassador to Denmark and many European newspapers reprinted them this week.

The Jyllands-Posten had asked 40 cartoonists to draw images of the prophet. The purpose, its chief editor said, was "to examine whether people would succumb to self-censorship, as we have seen in other cases when it comes to Muslim issues."

The 12 caricatures have prompted boycotts of Danish goods, bomb threats and demonstrations in front of Danish embassies across the Islamic world. Muslims have also directed their anger at other European countries, with Palestinian gunmen briefly kidnapping a German citizen Thursday and surrounding European Union headquarters in Gaza.

Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan was quoted as saying the caricatures are an attack on "our spiritual values" which have damaged efforts to establish an alliance between the Muslim world and Europe.

Hundreds of Turks emerging from mosques following Friday prayers staged demonstrations, including one in front of the Danish consulate in Istanbul.

"Hands that reach Islam must be broken," chanted a group of extremists outside the Merkez Mosque in Istanbul.

In Jakarta, Indonesia, more than 150 hardline Muslims stormed a high-rise building housing the Danish Embassy on Friday and tore down and burned the country's flag.

Pakistan's parliament unanimously voted to condemn the drawings as a "vicious, outrageous and provocative campaign" that has "hurt the faith and feelings of Muslims all over the world." About 800 people protested in Pakistan's capital, Islamabad, chanting "Death to Denmark" and "Death to France." Another rally in the southern city of Karachi drew 1,200 people.

Fundamentalist Muslims protested outside the Danish Embassy in Malaysia, chanting "Long live Islam, destroy our enemies."

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw criticized European media outlets for republishing the caricatures as demonstrators prepared to take to the streets of London.

[kg_veteran]

In Washington, the State Department criticized the drawings, calling them "offensive to the beliefs of Muslims."

While recognizing the importance of freedom of the press and expression, State Department press officer Janelle Hironimus said these rights must be coupled with press responsibility.

"Inciting religious or ethnic hatred in this manner is not acceptable," Hironimus said. "We call for tolerance and respect for all communities and for their religious beliefs and practices."

Interesting. I wonder if Hironimus would have said the same of a cartoon parody of Jesus.

[Drbio]

Of course not. Bashing Christians is en vouge and a widely accepted media sport.


I thought the line about the corwd chanting for bin Laden to blow up Denmark was so over thte top. And they are burning the Denmark flag? Well, I guess that stops them from burning ours for a week.

[Arne]

Interesting interview on that topic:

AL-JAZEERA CARTOONIST SHUJAAT ALI

"Professional Cartoonists Wouldn't Do This"

Al-Jazeera cartoonist Shujaat Ali comments on the outrage in the Arab World over anti-Muslim caricatures in Jyllands-Posten, the need for a code of ethics among caricaturists and State Department criticism of his own work.


SPIEGEL ONLINE: As a cartoonist working for Al-Jazeera, how did you respond when you first saw the Danish caricatures of Muhammad?

Shujaat Ali: It is the responsibility of journalists to be ethical. Religion is a very sensitive issue, and I think no truly professional cartoonist in the world would ever try to pick on a religion like this. There's an informal code of ethics among cartoonists in the media, and it includes two kinds of censorship: one is self-censorship; the other is professional censorship. Religion is one of the very important things that we should respect and not criticize. I grew up reading the cartoons of Herbert Herblock and they really impressed me. There are many cartoonists, in the US and Europe, who are really very professional. They would never treat a religion like this.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: You speak of "censorship" as if it's a good thing -- as a kind of act of self-discipline.

Shujaat Ali: Yes, yes, yes. It is a journalist's responsibility to follow this code of ethics -- it's very important.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Does this "code of ethics" still apply when Muslims criticize their own religion?

Shujaat Ali: Let me tell you a funny incident. When I started drawing for Pakistan's News International newspaper in Islamabad, I took the liberty of attacking the Islamic party there during elections. I was the first to do it. I fully agree with President Pervez Musharraf, when he talks about certain (violent) people taking the religion in their own hands. So I started criticizing the Islamic political parties in Pakistan -- and criticized them for steering the religion in the wrong direction. My paper refused to publish one of them, so I ran it in another newspaper. It created an uproar and the Islamic party attacked the newspaper's offices with guns.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: You say cartoonists should show sensitivity in their drawings, but the US State Department has accused you of lacking it in your own cartoons. After you drew a comic depicting dead US soldiers and another with gas tanks superimposed over the collapsing Twin Towers in New York, Washington complained and Al-Jazeera removed them from its Web site. Were you thinking about the sensitivities of an American audience when you drew those?

Shujaat Ali: My actual target in those particular cartoons was the US government and not the US people. I found the decision by my boss, our editor in chief, to be unacceptable -- and he was highly criticized for it. Professionally, it was not the right step because a professional organization must protect its journalists. We were analyzing the feelings of the US people in those cartoons. That's why the US government complained about that, but we didn't hear any complaints from normal American people for running it.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Many critics here in the West point out the hypocrisy in the current protests from the Arab World. Arabs are now complaining about negative stereotyping of Islam. But Jewish groups here accurately complain about anti-Semitic portrayals of their religion in caricatures that often appear in Arab newspapers. A lot of cartoonists in the Arab world are clearly anti-Semitic.

Shujaat Ali: I would agree about that, and I feel sorry about it. We should respect people from other religions, whether they are Jews, Christians or whatever. We should have a code of ethics among cartoonists, and we need to ask ourselves how far it is acceptable for us to go and what kind of limits we should set. It's fine for cartoonists to target politicians or governments, but they should leave religion alone. Cartoonists really need to be respectful in this regard.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: But here in the West, cartoonists have the legal right to satire, regardless of the subject. And it's the government's job to protect the right of free speech. How can the government and people of Denmark be held responsible for caricatures that one newspaper decided to publish?

Shujaat Ali: If the government doesn't take steps to stop the media from attacking a religion, which can lead to a major conflict between people, it could damage their international reputation.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: The West has fought for hundreds of years to secure the freedoms of opinion and speech that are now the foundations of our civilization. Across Europe right now, many see the protests from the Arab World as an attack on our democratic values.

The Cartoon Jihad: Did European newspapers make the right decision by reprinting controversial Danish caricatures that disparagingly depicted the Prophet Muhammad?

Shujaat Ali: Freedom is very important. And I am fighting for it here. But the problem is that we must set limits. If you want to criticize the people, if you want to criticize the government, if you want to criticize certain things as a cartoonist, you just can't go beyond certain limits. An excess of anything is bad. If you just keep pushing without limits, it can be harmful. When artists use this kind of (religious) issue in their cartoons to provoke, and they know that it will hurt the feelings of people in the other religion, then they've crossed the line and this has to go to the higher authorities responsible for this.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: In response, Arabs have burned effigies of Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, boycotted Danish products, threatened their nationals and burned the country's flag. The Muslim reaction to the cartoons has been shocking to many in the West. Extremists attacked the EU offices in Gaza Strip and Indonesian Muslims stormed the Danish Embassy in Jakarta. Do you feel these reactions have been exaggerated?

Shujaat Ali: I think correcting the Danish cartoonists and trying to show them the feelings of the masses is a good thing. We cannot tolerate any disparagement of the Prophet -- for whom we have the highest respect. In every religion, even Christianity, there are some people who are very emotional about their religion. Within my own community, I criticize people who are going beyond limits. They should be criticized, of course. (Muslim) extremism is also bad. We are not angels, but we are also human. As humans, we must respect each other. And our religion.

[Arne]

And another great article:

Democracy in a Cartoon

By Ibn Warraq

Best-selling author and Muslim dissident Ibn Warraq argues that freedom of expression is our western heritage and we must defend it against attacks from totalitarian societies. If the west does not stand in solidarity with the Danish, he argues, then the Islamization of Europe will have begun in earnest.

_______________
IBN WARRAQ
Born in 1946 in India and raised in Pakistan, Ibn Warraq was educated in Koran schools in Pakistan and later in England. He currently lives in the United States and writes under the pseudonym Ibn Warraq, a pen name traditionally used by dissidents in Islam. He is the author of the best- seller "Why I am Not a Muslim" and the editor of "The Origins of the Koran" and "The Quest for the Historical Muhammad."
_______________

The great British philosopher John Stuart Mill wrote in On Liberty, "Strange it is, that men should admit the validity of the arguments for free discussion, but object to their being 'pushed to an extreme'; not seeing that unless the reasons are good for an extreme case, they are not good for any case."

The cartoons in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten raise the most important question of our times: freedom of expression. Are we in the west going to cave into pressure from societies with a medieval mindset, or are we going to defend our most precious freedom -- freedom of expression, a freedom for which thousands of people sacrificed their lives?

A democracy cannot survive long without freedom of expression, the freedom to argue, to dissent, even to insult and offend. It is a freedom sorely lacking in the Islamic world, and without it Islam will remain unassailed in its dogmatic, fanatical, medieval fortress; ossified, totalitarian and intolerant. Without this fundamental freedom, Islam will continue to stifle thought, human rights, individuality; originality and truth.

Unless, we show some solidarity, unashamed, noisy, public solidarity with the Danish cartoonists, then the forces that are trying to impose on the Free West a totalitarian ideology will have won; the Islamization of Europe will have begun in earnest. Do not apologize.

This raises another more general problem: the inability of the West to defend itself intellectually and culturally. Be proud, do not apologize. Do we have to go on apologizing for the sins our fathers? Do we still have to apologize, for example, for the British Empire, when, in fact, the British presence in India led to the Indian Renaissance, resulted in famine relief, railways, roads and irrigation schemes, eradication of cholera, the civil service, the establishment of a universal educational system where none existed before, the institution of elected parliamentary democracy and the rule of law? What of the British architecture of Bombay and Calcutta? The British even gave back to the Indians their own past: it was European scholarship, archaeology and research that uncovered the greatness that was India; it was British government that did its best to save and conserve the monuments that were a witness to that past glory. British Imperialism preserved where earlier Islamic Imperialism destroyed thousands of Hindu temples.

On the world stage, should we really apologize for Dante, Shakespeare, and Goethe? Mozart, Beethoven and Bach? Rembrandt, Vermeer, Van Gogh, Breughel, Ter Borch? Galileo, Huygens, Copernicus, Newton and Darwin? Penicillin and computers? The Olympic Games and Football? Human rights and parliamentary democracy? The west is the source of the liberating ideas of individual liberty, political democracy, the rule of law, human rights and cultural freedom. It is the west that has raised the status of women, fought against slavery, defended freedom of enquiry, expression and conscience. No, the west needs no lectures on the superior virtue of societies who keep their women in subjection, cut off their clitorises, stone them to death for alleged adultery, throw acid on their faces, or deny the human rights of those considered to belong to lower castes.

The Cartoon Jihad: Did European newspapers make the right decision by reprinting controversial Danish caricatures that disparagingly depicted the Prophet Muhammad?

How can we expect immigrants to integrate into western society when they are at the same time being taught that the west is decadent, a den of iniquity, the source of all evil, racist, imperialist and to be despised? Why should they, in the words of the African-American writer James Baldwin, want to integrate into a sinking ship? Why do they all want to immigrate to the west and not Saudi Arabia? They should be taught about the centuries of struggle that resulted in the freedoms that they and everyone else for that matter, cherish, enjoy, and avail themselves of; of the individuals and groups who fought for these freedoms and who are despised and forgotten today; the freedoms that the much of the rest of world envies, admires and tries to emulate." When the Chinese students cried and died for democracy in Tiananmen Square (in 1989) , they brought with them not representations of Confucius or Buddha but a model of the Statue of Liberty."

Freedom of expression is our western heritage and we must defend it or it will die from totalitarian attacks. It is also much needed in the Islamic world. By defending our values, we are teaching the Islamic world a valuable lesson, we are helping them by submitting their cherished traditions to Enlightenment values.

[dude1394]

I think the title of this thread is an oxymoron.

[mavsman]

Originally Posted by FishForLunch

"Any boycott of Danish goods would be seen as a boycott of European goods," said spokesman Peter Power.

What is EU going to do boycott buying oil from Saudi Arabia? Ha Ha.....buch of jokers

Actually, it's not that far fetched an idea, considering that Germany (don't know the numbers for other EU-countries) in 2005 imported only 23% of its crude oil from OPEC-countries. This number could be further reduced for sure. The problem is, that this would mean to increase the imports from Russia, and if you've ever been to Dubai, you have seen all those Russian oil-tycoons going all bling-bling and throwing around their money in bundles (it's being said that about 30% of all homes on The Palm have been bought by Russians). So a direct boycott would most likely just lead to the money arriving a little later in the region.

[dude1394]

What a culture....what a bunch of insecure people. The only inventions they have brought into the world is suicide belts and IEDs. Really pathetic.

[dude1394]

TheMissingLink

First They Came for the Cartoonists

The world's most important story today is the ongoing fallout from a Danish newspaper's decision to publish 12 political cartoons depicting Mohammed. (If you're unfamiliar with the story catch up here and here.)

The controversy, ongoing since the September publication of the cartoons, has finally begun to attract the attention it deserves in the American press--no doubt because events have progressed from threats against free speech we ought not have ignored into actions that we cannot ignore.

The Associated Press reports:

Outrage over caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad escalated in the Arab and Islamic world Thursday, with Palestinian gunmen briefly kidnapping a German citizen and protesters in Pakistan chanting "death to France" and "death to Denmark."

Palestinian militants surrounded European Union headquarters in Gaza, and gunmen burst into several hotels and apartments in the West Bank in search of foreigners to take hostage.

In Iraq, Islamic leaders urged worshippers to stage demonstrations from Baghdad to the southern city of Basra following weekly prayer services Friday.

Afghanistan and Indonesia condemned the drawings, and Iran summoned the Austrian ambassador, whose country holds the EU presidency.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

What a culture....what a bunch of insecure people. The only inventions they have brought into the world is suicide belts and IEDs. Really pathetic.

let's not fall into a trap of prejudice against islam. your statement is flat out wrong.

muslims were the originators of algebra and trig, glass making, and many of the medical theories we now know as facts. the length of the year and the calendar.

[dude1394]

Long, long time ago mavie. And the culture has been seething ever since. It's the biggest problem the culture has. They feel if they can ONLY get more fervent, more religious, more jihadist then Allah will no longer abandon them.

They no longer will be passed up in science, military, culture by the infidels. They will get back their empire that was taken from them by the infidels. My statement is absolutely solid.

[Mavdog]

negative stereotypes are not a very pretty picture dude. your statement was wrong and continues to be wrong.

there are many muslims who make contributions to our world today.

just like there are religious fanatics who practice their brand of christianity, fanatics in India and even fanatical jews in israel, there are those muslims who haven't left behind the intolerance that produces images such as above.

[dude1394]

Hmm...so islamists in london use the freedom of speech guaranteed them by their infidel hosts to call for the murder of others for exercising their freedom of speech.






Michelle Malkin has the correct response.

"No, you go to hell."

[dude1394]

Caption: A Jordanian Muslim woman poses with a received message on her mobile phone saying ‘If we keep boycotting Danish Products till next summer they will lose at least 36 billion EURO’, in Amman Jordan, Febuary 1, 2006. A French newspaper reprinted on Wednesday a series of 12 Danish newspaper cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammad that have sparked protests in the Muslim world and prompted Saudi Arabia to recall its ambassador from Denmark. REUTERS/Ali Jarekji

That’s a Nokia phone (Nokia is based in Finland) she’s using to send and receive text messages about the boycott. Western inventions—the phone, the cell phone, electronic text messaging—deployed in the cause of destroying Western values.

[dude1394]

If it weren't so damn tragic it would be hilarious. Onion1997.

Crazed Palestinian Gunman Angered by Stereotypes

HEBRON, WEST BANK—In an emotionally charged press conference Monday, crazed Palestinian gunman Faisal al Hamad expressed frustration over the stereotyping of his people.

Faisal al Hamad, seen here shrieking anti-U.S. slogans, says that "not every crazed Palestinian gunman is exactly alike."

"As a crazed Palestinian gunman, I feel hurt by the negative portrayal of my people in the media," said al Hamad, 31, a Hebron-area terrorist maniac. "None of us should have to live with stereotyping and ignorance."

He then began screaming and firing into a busload of Israeli schoolchildren.

"It hurts that in this supposedly enlightened day and age, people still make assumptions about other people," al Hamad said. "We should not rely on simple generalizations. Each crazed Palestinian gunman is an individual."

Al Hamad said that he himself has often been unfairly stereotyped. "Any time I enter a crowded temple with fully loaded AK-47s in both hands, people just assume I'm going to open fire," he said. "That really hurts."

"Yes, I sometimes do gun people down in the name of the One True God," he noted. "But there is so much more to me."

[kg_veteran]

[kg_veteran]

That's the cartoon that they're all upset about.

Give me a break.

[dude1394]

It appears this is also a concerted effort to rouse the rabble. The cartoon supposedly was published in October with some others. The mullahs (I believe in London) took that cartoon and included some that had not been published and sent them around to rouse the jihadists.

Idiots.

[dude1394]

A marine captures my sentiments. This guy is one tough hombre.

urbanlegends

[capitalcity]

Speechless.

[FishForLunch]

Arent these losers living in Europe, so technically if europe pays they pay as well.

[FishForLunch]

Democracy in a Cartoon

By Ibn Warraq

Best-selling author and Muslim dissident Ibn Warraq argues that freedom of expression is our western heritage and we must defend it against attacks from totalitarian societies. If the west does not stand in solidarity with the Danish, he argues, then the Islamization of Europe will have begun in earnest.



AP
Ibn Warraq: "How can we expect immigrants to integrate into western society when they are at the same time being taught that the west is decadent, a den of iniquity, the source of all evil, racist, imperialist and to be despised?"
The great British philosopher John Stuart Mill wrote in On Liberty, "Strange it is, that men should admit the validity of the arguments for free discussion, but object to their being 'pushed to an extreme'; not seeing that unless the reasons are good for an extreme case, they are not good for any case."

The cartoons in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten raise the most important question of our times: freedom of expression. Are we in the west going to cave into pressure from societies with a medieval mindset, or are we going to defend our most precious freedom -- freedom of expression, a freedom for which thousands of people sacrificed their lives?

A democracy cannot survive long without freedom of expression, the freedom to argue, to dissent, even to insult and offend. It is a freedom sorely lacking in the Islamic world, and without it Islam will remain unassailed in its dogmatic, fanatical, medieval fortress; ossified, totalitarian and intolerant. Without this fundamental freedom, Islam will continue to stifle thought, human rights, individuality; originality and truth.

Unless, we show some solidarity, unashamed, noisy, public solidarity with the Danish cartoonists, then the forces that are trying to impose on the Free West a totalitarian ideology will have won; the Islamization of Europe will have begun in earnest. Do not apologize.


IBN WARRAQ
Born in 1946 in India and raised in Pakistan, Ibn Warraq was educated in Koran schools in Pakistan and later in England. He currently lives in the United States and writes under the pseudonym Ibn Warraq, a pen name traditionally used by dissidents in Islam. He is the author of the best- seller "Why I am Not a Muslim" and the editor of "The Origins of the Koran" and "The Quest for the Historical Muhammad."

This raises another more general problem: the inability of the West to defend itself intellectually and culturally. Be proud, do not apologize. Do we have to go on apologizing for the sins our fathers? Do we still have to apologize, for example, for the British Empire, when, in fact, the British presence in India led to the Indian Renaissance, resulted in famine relief, railways, roads and irrigation schemes, eradication of cholera, the civil service, the establishment of a universal educational system where none existed before, the institution of elected parliamentary democracy and the rule of law? What of the British architecture of Bombay and Calcutta? The British even gave back to the Indians their own past: it was European scholarship, archaeology and research that uncovered the greatness that was India; it was British government that did its best to save and conserve the monuments that were a witness to that past glory. British Imperialism preserved where earlier Islamic Imperialism destroyed thousands of Hindu temples.

On the world stage, should we really apologize for Dante, Shakespeare, and Goethe? Mozart, Beethoven and Bach? Rembrandt, Vermeer, Van Gogh, Breughel, Ter Borch? Galileo, Huygens, Copernicus, Newton and
Darwin? Penicillin and computers? The Olympic Games and Football? Human rights and parliamentary democracy? The west is the source of the liberating ideas of individual liberty, political democracy, the rule of law, human rights and cultural freedom. It is the west that has raised the status of women, fought against slavery, defended freedom of enquiry, expression and conscience. No, the west needs no lectures on the superior virtue of societies who keep their women in subjection, cut off their clitorises, stone them to death for alleged adultery, throw acid on their faces, or deny the human rights of those considered to belong to lower castes.



How can we expect immigrants to integrate into western society when they are at the same time being taught that the west is decadent, a den of iniquity, the source of all evil, racist, imperialist and to be despised? Why should they, in the words of the African-American writer James Baldwin, want to integrate into a sinking ship? Why do they all want to immigrate to the west and not Saudi Arabia? They should be taught about the centuries of struggle that resulted in the freedoms that they and everyone else for that matter, cherish, enjoy, and avail themselves of; of the individuals and groups who fought for these freedoms and who are despised and forgotten today; the freedoms that the much of the rest of world envies, admires and tries to emulate." When the Chinese students cried and died for democracy in Tiananmen Square (in 1989) , they brought with them not representations of Confucius or Buddha but a model of the Statue of Liberty."

Freedom of expression is our western heritage and we must defend it or it will die from totalitarian attacks. It is also much needed in the Islamic world. By defending our values, we are teaching the Islamic world a valuable lesson, we are helping them by submitting their cherished traditions to Enlightenment values.

[dude1394]

Another depiction of Mohammed with a Sword...Hmmm where is this one and do you think there will be firebombs thrown into this building?



Well this is on the wall of the US Supreme Court. And the group that wanted Mohammed with a sword was no other than CAIR...

[twelli]

...
(joke)
Americans! Buy Danish Tuborg and Carlsberg beer! Danish alcohol producers suffer terrible losses in the Arab world right now...
(joke)
...
(truth)
Those crazy folks down there even burn Swiss flags. Can't even tell the difference between Denmark and Switzerland...
(truth)

pathetic... and frightening...


just saw the cartoons.

expecting to see something outrageously offensive, I am surprised how harmless they were, not even funny. the one picture with the bomb inside the turban is a bit extreme, but all of them are bad taste at most.

what is wrong with these extremists? if their religion is so superior, what are they afraid of? why do these demonstrators always appear to be so irrational, aggressive and violent? Let's just hope they'll never get the hand on nuclear weapons. I am sure they won't think twice to drop one on Israel.

[Usually Lurkin]

Iran daily holds contest for Holocaust cartoons

TEHRAN (Reuters) -
Iran's best-selling newspaper has launched a competition to find the best cartoon about the Holocaust in retaliation for the publication in many European countries of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad.

the rest:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060207/...n_holocaust_dc


Unbelievable. If they are testing for a parallel reaction, then they should quite down when jews and "westerners" don't go firebombing arab embassies. If, however, they are actively trying to ramp up hostilities, then we shouldn't hear too much more of this, but will soon see more offensive moves by the Iranian leadership and jihadists.

[Arne]

SPIEGEL INTERVIEW WITH AYAAN HIRSI ALI

'Everyone Is Afraid to Criticize Islam'

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Dutch politician forced to go into hiding after the murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, responds to the Danish cartoon scandal, arguing that if Europe doesn't stand up to extremists, a culture of self-censorship of criticism of Islam that pervades in Holland will spread in Europe. Auf Wiedersehen, free speech.

SPIEGEL: Hirsi Ali, you have called the Prophet Muhammad a tyrant and a pervert. Theo van Gogh, the director of your film "Submission," which is critical of Islam, was murdered by Islamists. You yourself are under police protection. Can you understand how the Danish cartoonists feel at this point?

Hirsi Ali: They probably feel numb. On the one hand, a voice in their heads is encouraging them not to sell out their freedom of speech. At the same time, they're experiencing the shocking sensation of what it's like to lose your own personal freedom. One mustn't forget that they're part of the postwar generation, and that all they've experienced is peace and prosperity. And now they suddenly have to fight for their own human rights once again.

SPIEGEL: Why have the protests escalated to such an extent?

Hirsi Ali: There is no freedom of speech in those Arab countries where the demonstrations and public outrage are being staged. The reason many people flee to Europe from these places is precisely because they have criticized religion, the political establishment and society. Totalitarian Islamic regimes are in a deep crisis. Globalization means that they're exposed to considerable change, and they also fear the reformist forces developing among émigrés in the West. They'll use threatening gestures against the West, and the success they achieve with their threats, to intimidate these people.
_______________

Ayaan Hirsi Ali

is one of the most sharp- tongued critics of political Islam - - and a target of radical fanatics. Her provocative film "Submission" led to the assassination of director Theo van Gogh in November 2004. The attackers left a death threat against Hirsi Ali stuck to his corpse with a knife. After a brief period in hiding, the 36- year- old member of Dutch parliament from the neo- liberal VVD party has returned to parliament and is continuing her fight against Islamism. She recently published a book, "I Accuse," and is working on a sequel to "Submission."

_______________

Hirsi Ali was born in Somalia where she experienced the oppression of Muslim women first hand. When her father attempted to force her into an arranged marriage, she fled to Holland in 1992. Later, she renounced the Muslim religion. more...

SPIEGEL: Was apologizing for the cartoons the wrong thing to do?

Hirsi Ali: Once again, the West pursued the principle of turning first one cheek, then the other. In fact, it's already a tradition. In 1980, privately owned British broadcaster ITV aired a documentary about the stoning of a Saudi Arabian princess who had allegedly committed adultery. The government in Riyadh intervened and the British government issued an apology. We saw the same kowtowing response in 1987 when (Dutch comedian) Rudi Carrell derided (Iranian revolutionary leader) Ayatollah Khomeini in a comedy skit (that was aired on German television). In 2000, a play about the youngest wife of the Prophet Mohammed, titled "Aisha," was cancelled before it ever opened in Rotterdam. Then there was the van Gogh murder and now the cartoons. We are constantly apologizing, and we don't notice how much abuse we're taking. Meanwhile, the other side doesn't give an inch.

SPIEGEL: What should the appropriate European response look like?

Hirsi Ali: There should be solidarity. The cartoons should be displayed everywhere. After all, the Arabs can't boycott goods from every country. They're far too dependent on imports. And Scandinavian companies should be compensated for their losses. Freedom of speech should at least be worth that much to us.

SPIEGEL: But Muslims, like any religious community, should also be able to protect themselves against slander and insult.

Hirsi Ali: That's exactly the reflex I was just talking about: offering the other cheek. Not a day passes, in Europe and elsewhere, when radical imams aren't preaching hatred in their mosques. They call Jews and Christians inferior, and we say they're just exercising their freedom of speech. When will the Europeans realize that the Islamists don't allow their critics the same right? After the West prostrates itself, they'll be more than happy to say that Allah has made the infidels spineless.

SPIEGEL: What will be the upshot of the storm of protests against the cartoons?

Hirsi Ali: We could see the same thing happening that has happened in the Netherlands, where writers, journalists and artists have felt intimidated ever since the van Gogh murder. Everyone is afraid to criticize Islam. Significantly, "Submission" still isn't being shown in theaters.

SPIEGEL: Many have criticized the film as being too radical and too offensive.

Hirsi Ali: The criticism of van Gogh was legitimate. But when someone has to die for his world view, what he may have done wrong is no longer the issue. That's when we have to stand up for our basic rights. Otherwise we are just reinforcing the killer and conceding that there was a good reason to kill this person.

SPIEGEL: You too have been accused for your dogged criticism of Islam.

Hirsi Ali: Oddly enough, my critics never specify how far I can go. How can you address problems if you're not even allowed to clearly define them? Like the fact that Muslim women at home are kept locked up, are raped and are married off against their will -- and that in a country in which our far too passive intellectuals are so proud of their freedom!

SPIEGEL: The debate over speaking Dutch on the streets and the integration programs for potentially violent Moroccan youth -- do these things also represent the fruits of your provocations?

Hirsi Ali: The sharp criticism has finally triggered an open debate over our relationship with Muslim immigrants. We have become more conscious of things. For example, we are now classifying honor killings by the victims' countries of origin. And we're finally turning our attention to young girls who are sent against their wills from Morocco to Holland as brides, and adopting legislation to make this practice more difficult.

SPIEGEL: You're working on a sequel to "Submission." Will you stick to your uncompromising approach?

Hirsi Ali: Yes, of course. We want to continue the debate over the Koran's claim to absoluteness, the infallibility of the Prophet and sexual morality. In the first part, we portrayed a woman who speaks to her god, complaining that despite the fact that she has abided by his rules and subjugated herself, she is still being abused by her uncle. The second part deals with the dilemma into which the Muslim faith plunges four different men. One hates Jews, the second one is gay, the third is a bon vivant who wants to be a good Muslim but repeatedly succumbs to life's temptations, and the fourth is a martyr. They all feel abandoned by their god and decide to stop worshipping him.

SPIEGEL: Will recent events make it more difficult to screen the film?

Hirsi Ali: The conditions couldn't be more difficult. We're forced to produce the film under complete anonymity. Everyone involved in the film, from actors to technicians, will be unrecognizable. But we are determined to complete the project. The director didn't really like van Gogh, but he believes that, for the sake of free speech, shooting the sequel is critical. I'm optimistic that we'll be able to premier the film this year.

SPIEGEL: Is the Koran's claim to absoluteness, which you criticize in "Submission," the central obstacle to reforming Islam?

Hirsi Ali: The doctrine stating that the faith is inalterable because the Koran was dictated by God must be replaced. Muslims must realize that it was human beings who wrote the holy scriptures. After all, most Christians don't believe in hell, in the angels or in the earth having been created in six days. They now see these things as symbolic stories, but they still remain true to their faith.

[u2sarajevo]

Certainly not wanting to butt into the conversation.... but in case anyone is interested I made an avatar using the "offensive" image.

[capitalcity]

Originally Posted by u2sarajevo

Certainly not wanting to butt into the conversation.... but in case anyone is interested I made an avatar using the "offensive" image.

Listen up infidels -

If I'm forced to look at the prophet everyday... i'll... we'll i'll... you'll see.

[Mavdog]

Iran paper defends Holocaust cartoon contest Tue Feb 14, 11:46 AM ET



Iran's best-selling newspaper on Tuesday defended its competition for cartoons about the Holocaust, saying it was a test of the boundaries of free speech espoused by Western countries.

The Hamshahri newspaper contest, which has been strongly condemned by Jewish organizations and Western governments, follows widespread ire in the Islamic world over caricatures published in the European press depicting the Prophet Mohammad.

"We do not want to make fun of anyone with this competition, we just want to raise a question to find an answer which is very important for us," said Mohammadreza Zaeri, publisher of Hamshahri, which is owned by the Tehran municipality.

"We are not even after a historical discussion on the Holocaust. The West believes that the Holocaust is true and we suppose that if it is true, aren't we entitled to draw caricatures about it?" he told a news conference.

Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has drawn widespread condemnation for repeated remarks in recent months questioning the veracity of the Holocaust and calling for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

The Iranian embassy in Germany on Monday demanded a written apology from a Berlin newspaper that printed a cartoon of Iranian soccer players dressed as suicide bombers and threatened legal action if none was forthcoming.

Submissions for the Hamshahri contest, held jointly with Iran's Cartoon House, a syndicate for caricaturists, will be open until May 5, with international entries encouraged.

A website, www.irancartoon.com, is posting the submissions as they come in.

"The freedom of speech that the Westerners talk about is nothing more than a slogan," said Masoud Shojaei-Tabatabaei, head of the Cartoon House.

"It is surprising that they allow disrespect toward different religions with insulting pictures and there is no reaction to them in the West, but when people question the Holocaust, they adopt such a stance toward it," he said.

Scores of protesters threw petrol bombs and stones at the British and German embassies in Tehran on Tuesday in further violent demonstrations over the Prophet Mohammad caricatures.

[Arne]

"It is surprising that they allow disrespect toward different religions with insulting pictures and there is no reaction to them in the West, but when people question the Holocaust, they adopt such a stance toward it," he said.

Yeah, fuck freedom of expression...

I think we should all pull out our Iran flags, a lighter, our AK47 (or whatever YOU use...), our grenades and off we go to the nearest Irani embassy...