The First Strike

[vinnieponte]

US preparing strategy against North Korea

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The United States is preparing strategies to choke off nuclear-armed North Korea's few remaining sources of income, a report said.

President George W. Bush's administration began developing the "tool kit" of techniques to pressure North Korea before last week's announcement by Pyongyang that it possessed nuclear weapons, The New York Times reported.

North Korea last Thursday made an unambiguous declaration it is a nuclear weapons state and spurned six party talks aimed at defusing a more than two-year-old standoff with the United States over its atomic programs.

The new US strategies would intensify and coordinate efforts to track and freeze financial transactions that allegedly enabled Kim Jong Il's Stalinist regime to profit from counterfeiting, drug trafficking and the sale of missile and other weapons technology, the paper said.

The steps might evolve into a broader strategy against the regime if China and South Korea particularly could be convinced that North Korea's announcement last Thursday meant it must finally be forced to choose between disarmament and even deeper isolation, the New York Times quoted intelligence officials and policy makers as saying.

One official called them the "new instruments of pressure" against the reclusive and hardline Communist state.

China and South Korea have refused to use their economic might against Pyongyang, which relies heavily on them for investments and trade, but have come under renewed pressure after North Korea boasted its possession of nuclear weapons and that it would stay away from the six party talks.

Washington is the chief sponsor of the protracted talks designed to wean North Korea away from its nuclear program and defuse the crisis in the Korean peninsula.

But the parties to the talks -- the two Koreas, the United States, Japan, Russia and China -- are divided on how to reward and rein in Pyongyang

[dude1394]

Nah should just sign another treaty with them, that would do it.

[reeds]

nah just bomb em, thats what dubya does best

[capitalcity]

Originally posted by: reeds
nah just bomb em, thats what dubya does best

Exactly reeds. Preemtive action in the mideast will essentially help diplomatic realtions elsewhere. The whole world knows W is not bluffing when he says he'll use force if necessary.

...and this is the reason iran, syria, and north korea will back down. That and (especially in north korea's case) your economy will crumble if you don't play by our rules.

China and Japan love money too much to have a destabilizing force in the region. North Korea will be brought to the table and made to cooperate - no military involvment will be needed.

[reeds]

yep- just bomb em

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: capitalcity

Exactly reeds. Preemtive action in the mideast will essentially help diplomatic realtions elsewhere. The whole world knows W is not bluffing when he says he'll use force if necessary.

...and this is the reason iran, syria, and north korea will back down. That and (especially in north korea's case) your economy will crumble if you don't play by our rules.

China and Japan love money too much to have a destabilizing force in the region. North Korea will be brought to the table and made to cooperate - no military involvment will be needed.

That mindset is disturbing to me. "play by our rules"?

When does freedom stop being a choice?

[capitalcity]

Originally posted by: u2sarajevo

That mindset is disturbing to me. "play by our rules"?

When does freedom stop being a choice?

Synopsis of the Rules: America does whats best for America, and others benefit as we benefit.

Bush talks like he's bringing light into the dark corners of the earth - okay symbollism is great. Read between the lines. America should bring America to the corners of the earth. Countries can take what they want and leave what they don't. What they can't do in stand in the way of the superpower and it's will.

I argue America has a right, moreover a duty, to impress/inflict our will upon the entire globe. What's good and right for America will benefit the rest of the world - because the world needs a stable superpower for the greater good of every industrialized nation's economy and thus social welfare.

Therefore I can rationalize war in Iraq. Not necessarily because we 'freed' an oppressed peoples, deposed a terrorist, or imported a superior type of government - but because we contributed to the world economy via securing Saddam's oil fields. Capitalism conquers some but influences all.

Despite what you've been told, money actually does make the world go round. We're the banker - and everybody knows what happens when the bank goes belly up... nobody wins.

Now u2 - were you talking about the 'choice' being made FOR the impoverished and mistreated BY the fortunate and enlightened? or - America's decisions (freedom) which indirectly effect the rest of the world, regions at a time?

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: capitalcity

Exactly reeds. Preemtive action in the mideast will essentially help diplomatic realtions elsewhere. The whole world knows W is not bluffing when he says he'll use force if necessary.

...and this is the reason iran, syria, and north korea will back down. That and (especially in north korea's case) your economy will crumble if you don't play by our rules.

China and Japan love money too much to have a destabilizing force in the region. North Korea will be brought to the table and made to cooperate - no military involvment will be needed.

Mercantilism is alive and well it seems....

Don't look now, but North Korea isn't close to anything that resembles playing "by our rules", in fact they have done exactly opposite. They have followed their own rules much to the consternation of our current administration. Iran has stated they will do as they please, a complete repudiation of "our rules". Yep, that Bush foreign policy is making such strides in these two specific cases that....the countries of Iran and North Korea have told the US to shove it.

If you are waiting for the North Korean economy to "crumble" you'll be very disappointed. Funny thing about those totalitarian state controlled economies. the pressure you mention means absolutely nothing. The people will just suffer, and with no recourse to that suffering.

Tell me, if China "love[s] money too much to have a destabilizing force in the region" why have they not prevented North Korea from obtaining a nuclear weapon (or at the least the capability) and the delivery system to send a bomb towards them, or to Seoul, or Tokyo?

Bush's policy is heading towards that military confrontation, at this juncture I don't see any other initiative being tried.

[dude1394]

Don't look now, but North Korea isn't close to anything that resembles playing "by our rules", in fact they have done exactly opposite. They have followed their own rules much to the consternation of our current administration.

Not to mention their own starving people.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: dude1394

Not to mention their own starving people.

amazing isn't it? it's a reversion to a feudal society.

[dude1394]

It truly is... To think that right across the dmz there is a thriving, industrious society. How the N.Ks must despair...

It's one thing to live in abject poverty because that's the way it is, it must be quite another to live in it less than what (100 meters) away from what they have to consider to be utopia.

[capitalcity]

Mavdog - North Korea announcing they have "nukes" (unsubstantiated) isn't leverage or menacing in the least. It is a pathetic attempt at a powerplay with the world's only superpower. Its a bluff, a ruse, a joke - anything but a real threat.

They actually think they can blackmail Bush like they did Clinton. Like a petulent child, the longer we ignore them the better - they will cry themselves to sleep.

They won't fire their missles and they won't sell them to terrorists. Just cause were not talking to them doesn't mean we aren't closly monitoring the situation.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: capitalcity
Mavdog - North Korea announcing they have "nukes" (unsubstantiated) isn't leverage or menacing in the least. It is a pathetic attempt at a powerplay with the world's only superpower. Its a bluff, a ruse, a joke - anything but a real threat.

I don't believe that the rest of the world, and especially those in South Korea and Japan, share your view. The situation in North Korea is the most threatening situation that exists in the world...much more threatening that Hussein was BTW. As you are a fervent supporter of the Iraq War, the contradiction in your position is striking.

They actually think they can blackmail Bush like they did Clinton. Like a petulent child, the longer we ignore them the better - they will cry themselves to sleep.

or they will redouble their efforts to develop the bombs and delivery systems, and selling them to anybody who has the money. Not a very pretty scenario.

Frankly we cannot take the risk and "ignore them".

As for the "blackmail" assertion, I find it very difficult to characterize a few hundred million $ in economic assistance (primarily fuel) as "blackmail". If you want something done typically there is a price. IMO this was a cheap amount to pay for the removal of nuclear weapons from the Korean peninsula.

They won't fire their missles and they won't sell them to terrorists. Just cause were not talking to them doesn't mean we aren't closly monitoring the situation.

I'm sure that you would be willing to bet your life on this. Those who live in South Korea and Japan are risking theirs with the sort of approach you advocate.

[capitalcity]

I don't see how the North Koreans will find takers for their weapons systems/parts/technologies. International terrorists are more likely to come across nuclear materials from Russia's huge, and somewhat unaccounted for, arsenal. At this moment in time - dealings, secretive or not, with any members of the "axis of evil" is unwise. - that is unless you want the penetrating gaze of our intelligence services watching your every move.

If a transaction does take place - it will happen because we allowed it, not because we "ignored" the situation.

It's good strategy to oversee the eventual sale of these weapons - follow the trail and see where it leads. In this way we can utilize the north koreans as bait to catch the rouge groups.

Mavdog - How many ways can I say it? Kim Jong Ill is all show and no go.

And if the south koreans and japanese feel threatened... well GOOD. It will motivate them to take the lead in negotiations. I'll care about their well-being when the price of TV's and cellphones goes up.

[dude1394]

Agree Mavdog. If I'm japan and I've the nutjob Kim fire a missile OVER my country, I take the threat of a nuclear weapon really seriously. I get me one fast.

[capitalcity]

Originally posted by: capitalcity
Mavdog - How many ways can I say it? Kim Jong Il is all show and no go.

THIS JUST IN... Kim Jong Il has very small testicles.

BEIJING, China (CNN) -- North Korean leader Kim Jong Il says he is ready to resume six-party talks on his country's nuclear weapons program if the United States shows sincerity and if certain conditions are met.

In the latest move in a series of heated accusations and rhetoric over the past two weeks, Pyongyang's state news agency quoted Kim as telling visiting Chinese diplomat Wang Jiarui that talks could resume if the United States "would show trustworthy sincerity and move (its stance)."

"We will go to the negotiating table anytime if there are mature conditions for the six-party talks thanks to the concerted efforts of the parties concerned in the future," KCNA news agency quoted Kim as saying on Tuesday.

While Kim did not give further details about what these conditions were, in the past Pyongyang has insisted on one-to-one talks with the United States, but Washington says a multilateral diplomatic approach is required, a call echoed by South Korea.

Since 2003, the United States, South Korea, China, Japan and Russia have held three rounds of talks with North Korea aimed at persuading Pyongyang to abandon its nuclear weapons development in return for economic and diplomatic rewards.

But no significant progress has been made in those talks, all hosted by China. A fourth round of talks in September did not take place when North Korea refused to attend, citing what it called a "hostile" U.S. policy.

The talks have taken on a greater sense of urgency after North Korea admitted publicly for the first time this month that it possessed nuclear weapons and it would not return to the talks.

Previously it had asserted its ability and right to produce nuclear weapons. In April 2003, U.S. officials said that North Koreans claimed in private meetings they had at least one nuclear bomb.

In what appears to be a conditional willingness to return to talks, Pyongyang said Tuesday its government "has never opposed the six-party talks but made every possible effort for their success."

[dude1394]

Somebody gave china some tough love.

[capitalcity]

Kim Jong test fires nuke? ... man that pussy is starving for attention.

[Mavdog]

An action which is clearly showing how ineffective the current administration's policy towards North Korea truly is. While the Bush administration refuses to speak directly with North Korea, the Koreans continue to not only enrich more nuclear fuel they are improving their delivery systems.

Just last week an administration official conceeded the Koreans can possibly deliver a missle (and its nuclear warhead!) to the west coast of our country.

It is time to rethink the current approach and attempt other strategies to contain the Koreans.

[capitalcity]

Just last week an administration official conceeded the Koreans can possibly deliver a missle (and its nuclear warhead!) to the west coast of our country.

I'm sorry MD - check the map. The west coast clearly lies in within the borders of the United States of Canada. Let me know when Kim Jong Pussy is 'threatening' Jesusland.

Mavdog name me one reason why he'd do it. Just one legitimate reason for shooting at us. So he can be the badass that blew up Seattle? for maybe an hour or two? I don't think so.

The U.S. doesn't negotiate with terrorists. Why the hell are you so eager to be blackmailed back to the bargaining table?

[MFFL41]

capital, i never thought about it like that. He wouldn't do it or his ass would be toast. I would only assume he would try it in South Korea or japan but i still can't see him doing.

I think Kim Jong Ill is doing this to get us to pay him. Thats what clinton did.

[capitalcity]

Merely having the weapons does not give you leverage. Kim Jong Ill is politically isolated and economically pigeonholed into a corner. Either use the missles or succumb to world demand - he has no other options.

[Mavdog]

au contrare, having the capability to deliver the nuclear warhead <u>does</u> give leverage.

we shouldn't give a hoot unless N. Korea's delivery systems allows for those missles to hit past the west coast? uh huh, that's a sound plan...you're ideal for a position in the Bush administration, they can't see the forest for the trees either.

the fact that Kim Il Jong is such a twerp, a bit of a madman, is the reason he should be taken seriously. MAD does not work when one side feels like they have nothing to lose.

[kingrex]

As long as one-side is still willing to listen, then diplomacy should not be abandoned for a show of strength.

[FishForLunch]

Lets see N Korea is going to NUKE Japan beacause they are mad because US wont talk to them. I guess this is what China wants anyway.

What is it that N.Korea actually wants?
Do they want to be left in peace to torture their people as they wish?
Or do they want the UN and US to subsidise them so KIMI and gang and live their lives in luxury?

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: FishForLunch
Lets see N Korea is going to NUKE Japan beacause they are mad because US wont talk to them. I guess this is what China wants anyway.

i'm most concerned with the tens of thousands of American troops that are in Korea, and also with the possibility that a Korean missle could reach America.

What is it that N.Korea actually wants?

Seems that they want a non-aggression agreement with the US.

Do they want to be left in peace to torture their people as they wish?

seems they do want to remain in a political totalitarian state

Or do they want the UN and US to subsidise them so KIMI and gang and live their lives in luxury?

he already does, I'm not sure he needs any "subsidy".

[capitalcity]

...i'm most concerned with the tens of thousands of American troops that are in Korea...

We agree on something MD. The DMZ is definitely a modern day Berlin Wall - and our losing our boys to a first strike would be unforgiveable. Bush has expressed his wish to decrease troop numbers in these cold war strongholds... but he's taking his sweetass time doing so. Get 'em out ASAP and let the S. Koreans stand on their own 2 feet.