Mavs Free Agency 11/12

[jthig32]

I will again reiterate that I have zero interest in giving Butler more than a one year deal.

[dalger]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I will again reiterate that I have zero interest in giving Butler more than a one year deal.

One year would be the best-case scenario. If it turned out that we could only retain him by offering him two years, what would keep us from giving him those two years? How would it "hurt" us as it relates to our chances to compete for another ring? After all, it's not our money and the more prohibitive luxury tax would kick in after the two years.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dalger

One year would be the best-case scenario. If it turned out that we could only retain him by offering him two years, what would keep us from giving him those two years? How would it "hurt" us as it relates to our chances to compete for another ring? After all, it's not our money and the more prohibitive luxury tax would kick in after the two years.

It locks up a roster spot and costs money against our budget, whatever it may be.

Even if Butler were healthy I would be reluctant to give him a significant multi-year deal. He was ineffective for us two years ago and his effectiveness last season was a small sample size based on defense and three point shooting that I don't believe he will continue.

I'm just not a believer in his fit. Marion is, and should continue to be our starting Small Forward. Also, Marion's effectiveness at PF is going to continue to decline as he gets older and loses quickness. So I don't think it makes sense to sign someone like Butler who is going to expect to play 25+ minutes a game at SF.

[dalger]

Originally Posted by jthig32

It locks up a roster spot and costs money against our budget, whatever it may be.

Even if Butler were healthy I would be reluctant to give him a significant multi-year deal. He was ineffective for us two years ago and his effectiveness last season was a small sample size based on defense and three point shooting that I don't believe he will continue.

I'm just not a believer in his fit. Marion is, and should continue to be our starting Small Forward. Also, Marion's effectiveness at PF is going to continue to decline as he gets older and loses quickness. So I don't think it makes sense to sign someone like Butler who is going to expect to play 25+ minutes a game at SF.

I don't think that a two-year deal worth $10-14 million would be too significant for a player who could very well turn out to actually be worth it. Losing a well-liked, team-oriented guy like Butler, his potential productivity and his desirable effect on Dirk's and Marion's minutes because of unwillingness to offer him two years instead of one wouldn't exactly thrill me, to be honest.

I'd actually argue that he was a pretty good fit alongside Dirk and Marion. At the time he got hurt, he was arguably our best scorer behind Dirk and stepped up big time as soon as Dirk injured his knee (admittedly, only for a very short period of time). He's a two-way player who can easily be paired with an offensive or defensive minded shooting guard, thus providing us with a nice deal of flexibility at the wings. It's also worth noting that, while he might expect to play 25+ minutes, Caron was fine with being on the bench during crunch time and living up to Rick's "role acceptance" mantra.

Finally, it comes down to alternatives. Right now, our alternatives at the forward spots are Brewer and Cardinal. Not adding Butler to that list due to his effect on a payroll that'll be lower than last year's anyway doesn't make sense to me, assuming that we're talking about a two-year deal. Plus, we could re-sign Chandler, JJB, Butler and Cardinal and still have an open spot on our roster.

Again, I'm not preferring a two-year deal, yet it wouldn't bother me in the slightest to take that risk. The potential upside of having Caron play some decent basketball with a reasonable salary until 2013 is something I'd prefer over losing him for a mere and meaningless $6 million.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dalger

I don't think that a two-year deal worth $10-14 million would be too significant for a player who could very well turn out to actually be worth it. Losing a well-liked, team-oriented guy like Butler, his potential productivity and his desirable effect on Dirk's and Marion's minutes because of unwillingness to offer him two years instead of one wouldn't exactly thrill me, to be honest.

I'd actually argue that he was a pretty good fit alongside Dirk and Marion. At the time he got hurt, he was arguably our best scorer behind Dirk and stepped up big time as soon as Dirk injured his knee (admittedly, only for a very short period of time). He's a two-way player who can easily be paired with an offensive or defensive minded shooting guard, thus providing us with a nice deal of flexibility at the wings. It's also worth noting that, while he might expect to play 25+ minutes, Caron was fine with being on the bench during crunch time and living up to Rick's "role acceptance" mantra.

Finally, it comes down to alternatives. Right now, our alternatives at the forward spots are Brewer and Cardinal. Not adding Butler to that list due to his effect on a payroll that'll be lower than last year's anyway doesn't make sense to me, assuming that we're talking about a two-year deal. Plus, we could re-sign Chandler, JJB, Butler and Cardinal and still have an open spot on our roster.

Again, I'm not preferring a two-year deal, yet it wouldn't bother me in the slightest to take that risk. The potential upside of having Caron play some decent basketball with a reasonable salary until 2013 is something I'd prefer over losing him for a mere and meaningless $6 million.

Two things:

1. I don't understand how you can say that he's a good fit with Dirk and Marion when he can't be on the floor with both of them.

2. I'ts not 6 million, it's 12 million. And keep in mind that we're going to have to stay under the Luxury Tax twice in the next five years or face even more ridiculous penalties. You can no longer just say "I really don't want to lose him, eff it we'll give him an extra year even though we really don't want to".

The bottom line for me is that we acquired Butler to be our SG, only to discover that he couldn't play the position. They made it work last year and no one's saying that it's a bad thing to have two starting caliber SF's on the roster, but he's not a great fit, and we have Brewer who I think the Mavs expect to contribute this season.

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Two things:

1. I don't understand how you can say that he's a good fit with Dirk and Marion when he can't be on the floor with both of them.

He is a good fit because this three could pull off a great forward rotation, keeping everyones minutes low, winning games and going fresh into the playoffs. He proved last november and december that he (finally) adjusted his game and he was a great fit (and 2nd best Mavs in december).

I just dont want to rely on Brewer (yet).

One of the really "wow" things about playoffs was that we were able to dodge a huge bullet going through with a Marion/Peja/Stevenson SF rotation, specially with playing the Thunder and Heat.

We got lucky that Marion was able to play heavy minutes without foul trouble or injuries. And yes Butler comes off an injury but in the same time his price tag is reduced.

[dalger]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Two things:

1. I don't understand how you can say that he's a good fit with Dirk and Marion when he can't be on the floor with both of them.

sefant answered it for me:

Originally Posted by sefant77

He is a good fit because this three could pull off a great forward rotation, keeping everyones minutes low, winning games and going fresh into the playoffs. He proved last november and december that he (finally) adjusted his game and he was a great fit (and 2nd best Mavs in december).

Caron's a great complement to Dirk and Marion, keeping them fresh while offering decent contributions himself. Right now, we're looking at Brewer and Cardinal (or any other cheap player that's available) as our complements. Not too promising. I like Brewer, but I don't want to count on him being able to deliver more than could be reasonably expected.

Originally Posted by jthig32

2. I'ts not 6 million, it's 12 million. And keep in mind that we're going to have to stay under the Luxury Tax twice in the next five years or face even more ridiculous penalties. You can no longer just say "I really don't want to lose him, eff it we'll give him an extra year even though we really don't want to".

Wouldn't it be awfully disappointing to see Cubes and Donnie worry about paying dollar-for-dollar luxury tax and staying under the luxury tax in two of the next five seasons RIGHT NOW?

This upcoming season could very well be our final campaign. Both Kidd and Jet's contracts are set to expire and who knows what's going to happen with these two guys after next summer. Dirk and Marion are getting older as well.

Shouldn't we be willing to pay an additional $6 million (or $12 million) to give us our best shot one more time and worry about saving money when our current boys in blue are done?

Looking at Cuban's spending habits over the years, I just don't think we want to be tight-fisted now and not take full advantage of the final chapters of Dirk's and the entire team's prime.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dalger

Wouldn't it be awfully disappointing to see Cubes and Donnie worry about paying dollar-for-dollar luxury tax and staying under the luxury tax in two of the next five seasons RIGHT NOW?

It would be disappointing if they worry about paying tax for a front line player. I'm fine if they worry about luxury tax for a backup, which is what Butler would be. He's a backup, coming off a major injury, headed into "past his prime" territory, that only plays one position.

Keep in mind that while you may not be ready to trust Brewer, the Mavs gave him a three year (2.5 if you want to be technical) deal at over 3 mil a season. They clearly believe in him. And I think it's fairly clear that they think of him mostly as a SF. Signing Butler pushes Brewer out of the rotation completely.

So no, I'm not willing to essentially "grin and bear it" by giving Butler a second year in order to keep him for this coming season.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by jthig32

It locks up a roster spot and costs money against our budget, whatever it may be.

Even if Butler were healthy I would be reluctant to give him a significant multi-year deal. He was ineffective for us two years ago and his effectiveness last season was a small sample size based on defense and three point shooting that I don't believe he will continue.

I'm just not a believer in his fit. Marion is, and should continue to be our starting Small Forward. Also, Marion's effectiveness at PF is going to continue to decline as he gets older and loses quickness. So I don't think it makes sense to sign someone like Butler who is going to expect to play 25+ minutes a game at SF.

Excellent post. No way Butler should be offered more than 1 year to return.
AK47 would be a different matter. Could be real value there. His stock is low but he's shown he can be a difference maker when he's healthy and his head is screwed on right.

And yes to re-signing JJB, not only for continuity sake, but because he's sure to retain trade value. Similar to what Orlando did with Gortat, albeit on a smaller scale. Just hope that it's possible. Cant see the Mavs going much more than 3 yrs/4mil per though.

Would love to have D-Steve back on a 1year deal but am afraid he's priced himself out of our range. He really helped set the tone defensively and would be missed but there seem to be younger options with greater upside already on the roster.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I will again reiterate that I have zero interest in giving Butler more than a one year deal.

Agreed - Butler is too big of a risk coming off of a knee injury to dedicate more than a year to.

Besides, doesn't he still kinda OWE us for that ring?

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I will again reiterate that I have zero interest in giving Butler more than a one year deal.

Seconded.