Mavs Free Agency 11/12

[jthig32]

I'm not sure why I still follow Fish on Twitter, since all of his DLord stuff is behind a pay wall that I will never pay for, but he just tweeted this:

Our #MAVS calculations are done. @realtuffjuice can fit at $6-7M a year for 4 years. Details comin at http://DallasBasketball.com.

This boggles my mind. No one actually thinks this is a good idea, do they?

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I'd be curious what the market for players like Jamal Crawford and Jason Richardson is.

I'm not really worried about losing Butler if he so chooses to leave. There are quite a few low budget 2/3 type players that could fill his void.

Here is the list if anyone cares...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/s...eeAgents-11-12

Crawford will get as much as butler if not more

[Funkman]

As much as I have a love/hate relationship with Barea, with the short training camp and all it would be best to keep him. Not the year to find and groom Kidd's replacement. I can still dream of somehow getting Deron next year and Barea can be his backup. But I don't think they should overpay him. It will be interesting to see what offers he gets and how it's going to play out.

As far as Caron. I would prefer a one year make good contract with incentives. His injury has me leery for anything long term and too high priced. The fact that the Mavs won without him probably helps the feeling he's not a high priority.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Hence my interest in Dalembert.

I'd rather have Kwame than Delambert. At least Kwame looked like a competent player last season. And he had a great finish, particularly in the rebounding department.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm not sure why I still follow Fish on Twitter, since all of his DLord stuff is behind a pay wall that I will never pay for, but he just tweeted this:



This boggles my mind. No one actually thinks this is a good idea, do they?

I expect dlord is just "doing the math" on this one. He seems to be fishes guy for numbers. You know English majors and liberals ( lol ) typically have a tough time with numbers.

[Funkman]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I expect dlord is just "doing the math" on this one. He seems to be fishes guy for numbers. You know English majors and liberals ( lol ) typically have a tough time with numbers.

Not to mention fact checking donuts.

[Wang Zhi Zhi]

Eddie Sefko's article in the DMN today was a little odd, I thought. He seems to think that no free agent, not even Chandler, will be offered anything more than a 1-year contract this year.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm not sure why I still follow Fish on Twitter, since all of his DLord stuff is behind a pay wall that I will never pay for, but he just tweeted this:



This boggles my mind. No one actually thinks this is a good idea, do they?

Cuban does have a history of paying his own guys a high salary so it somehow wouldn't surprise me.

I'd give him 4 a year for 3 years max because of such a major knee surgery. We won a championship with him on the bench, and there are too many reasonable players at his position in FA. Plus, you could do worse than Rudy, Stevenson (I think he is back), Roddy, Brewer, Dojo, and Marion at the 2/3 positions.

Still pure speculation at this point.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by spreedom

I'd rather have Kwame than Delambert. At least Kwame looked like a competent player last season. And he had a great finish, particularly in the rebounding department.

Last season:

Samuel Dalembert - 8.1 PPG / 8.2 RPG / 1.4 BPG
Kwame Brown - 7.9 PPG / 6.8 RPG / 0.6 BPG


I guess looks can be deceiving...

[41mvp]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Last season:

Samuel Dalembert - 8.1 PPG / 8.2 RPG / 1.4 BPG
Kwame Brown - 7.9 PPG / 6.8 RPG / 0.6 BPG


I guess looks can be deceiving...

Hi Underdog my old friend

Why you talk about Dalembert and Brown?You should talk about Chandler.Because he is our number one...

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Last season:

Samuel Dalembert - 8.1 PPG / 8.2 RPG / 1.4 BPG
Kwame Brown - 7.9 PPG / 6.8 RPG / 0.6 BPG


I guess looks can be deceiving...

I liked what I saw from Kwame a lot more than Dalembert, especially after Next Town Brown got the axe in Charlotte. Kwame played with more fire than Dalembert ever has.

Plus I believe it's already a lock that Dalembert is going to Miami. And he'll probably get a deal worth at least 3-4 times as much as Kwame gets.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by 41mvp

Hi Underdog my old friend

Why you talk about Dalembert and Brown?You should talk about Chandler.Because he is our number one...

100% agree that bringing back Chandler is Plan A.

We're just considering a Plan B if he doesn't re-sign with the Mavs.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by spreedom

I liked what I saw from Kwame a lot more than Dalembert, especially after Next Town Brown got the axe in Charlotte. Kwame played with more fire than Dalembert ever has.

Plus I believe it's already a lock that Dalembert is going to Miami. And he'll probably get a deal worth at least 3-4 times as much as Kwame gets.

Um, where exactly is Miami going to scrape up the 3-4 times more money than what Kwame is worth to pay Dalembert??

The projected 2011/12 salary cap is about $58mil, Miami already has $65mil in dedicated salaries...


EDIT: also, where did you get the idea that Kwame finished stronger than Dalembert? Looking at their last 8 games (the month of April), Kwame did have a very impressive 23/13 game, but Dalembert had games of 16/18, 17/16, 12/10, 21/15 and 10/12 in that same stretch...

[dalger]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm not sure why I still follow Fish on Twitter, since all of his DLord stuff is behind a pay wall that I will never pay for, but he just tweeted this:

This boggles my mind. No one actually thinks this is a good idea, do they?

As mentioned before, it was probably D-Lord who came up with these figures and I'd guess it's just an outline of what could be possible.

As much as I'd like Caron to be back, a four-year deal for a 31-year-old player who's coming off a major knee injury and hasn't played ever since would be very risky, maybe even absurd, especially under the new CBA. Which team would offer him that kind of money and years anyway?

$5-7 million per year over 2 years with a team option for a third year would perhaps be reasonable.

[Funkman]

But if Miami isn't in luxury tax territory, don't they get the full MLE instead of the mini MLE? So they could offer Dalembert that.

[jthig32]

I will again reiterate that I have zero interest in giving Butler more than a one year deal.

[dalger]

Yep. $20 million over four years is the maximum they could offer Dalembert.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dalger

Yep. $20 million over four years is the maximum they could offer Dalembert.

By comparison, he made $13mil last season...

[dalger]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I will again reiterate that I have zero interest in giving Butler more than a one year deal.

One year would be the best-case scenario. If it turned out that we could only retain him by offering him two years, what would keep us from giving him those two years? How would it "hurt" us as it relates to our chances to compete for another ring? After all, it's not our money and the more prohibitive luxury tax would kick in after the two years.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dalger

Yep. $20 million over four years is the maximum they could offer Dalembert.

Don't forget the 4.5% raises every year.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I will again reiterate that I have zero interest in giving Butler more than a one year deal.

Agreed - Butler is too big of a risk coming off of a knee injury to dedicate more than a year to.

Besides, doesn't he still kinda OWE us for that ring?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dalger

One year would be the best-case scenario. If it turned out that we could only retain him by offering him two years, what would keep us from giving him those two years? How would it "hurt" us as it relates to our chances to compete for another ring? After all, it's not our money and the more prohibitive luxury tax would kick in after the two years.

It locks up a roster spot and costs money against our budget, whatever it may be.

Even if Butler were healthy I would be reluctant to give him a significant multi-year deal. He was ineffective for us two years ago and his effectiveness last season was a small sample size based on defense and three point shooting that I don't believe he will continue.

I'm just not a believer in his fit. Marion is, and should continue to be our starting Small Forward. Also, Marion's effectiveness at PF is going to continue to decline as he gets older and loses quickness. So I don't think it makes sense to sign someone like Butler who is going to expect to play 25+ minutes a game at SF.

[41mvp]

I hope D.Nelson will keep Tyson with us...

[LonghornDub]

I'm still waiting for horse to weigh in on these free-agency issues.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Um, where exactly is Miami going to scrape up the 3-4 times more money than what Kwame is worth to pay Dalembert??

The projected 2011/12 salary cap is about $58mil, Miami already has $65mil in dedicated salaries...

MLE... I believe Miami will offer the whole thing to Dalembert. And I mean in total contract, not 3-4 times as much per year. I think Kwame gets 1, maybe two years tops, but somebody (Miami, if not them probably Houston) will severely overpay Dalembert.

EDIT: also, where did you get the idea that Kwame finished stronger than Dalembert? Looking at their last 8 games (the month of April), Kwame did have a very impressive 23/13 game, but Dalembert had games of 16/18, 17/16, 12/10, 21/15 and 10/12 in that same stretch...

I'm not sure where I said that. I just liked what I saw from Kwame.

[41mvp]

What about Barea?If he leave our team...Do you think Roddy is ready to play?Barea was brilliant in the playoffs time.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by spreedom

I'm not sure where I said that. I just liked what I saw from Kwame.

Post #84...

Originally Posted by spreedom

I'd rather have Kwame than Delambert. At least Kwame looked like a competent player last season. And he had a great finish, particularly in the rebounding department.

Every way I look at it, Dalembert is a far superior player to Kwame Brown - rebounding, scoring, blocks - full season stats, end of season stats, career stats, the eyeball test... I just don't see how you can make an argument for Kwame over Dalembert unless you're talking from a strictly financial standpoint, in which case you shouldn't even be comparing the two.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Post #84...




Every way I look at it, Dalembert is a far superior player to Kwame Brown - rebounding, scoring, blocks - full season stats, end of season stats, career stats, the eyeball test... I just don't see how you can make an argument for Kwame over Dalembert unless you're talking from a strictly financial standpoint, in which case you shouldn't even be comparing the two.

I have no idea why you'd say that last part, especially considering how strapped we'll be for cap space as we enter free agency. I'd rather look into signing a guy like Kwame for 1yr/$3M than Dalembert at 4yrs/$18-20M. I think that's what each guy will realistically command on the open market, though the Bobcats might overpay for Kwame, considering he had arguably the best season of his career for them last season.

Saying I'd rather have somebody is in no way saying he's a better player. I'm saying I'd take the guy that will bring more value to us. And getting extremely similar production from a guy that plays the same game as Dalembert at a fraction of the price.

[vinylstar]

I'm going on record saying we need to keep Kwame Brown as far away from the Mavs as possible. If you believe Chandler intangibles are what put the Mavs over the top last year, Brown is not where you go to fill that potential void.

This is the guy Phil Jackson had to nickname "Pussy" to motivate him...yeah.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by spreedom

I have no idea why you'd say that last part, especially considering how strapped we'll be for cap space as we enter free agency. I'd rather look into signing a guy like Kwame for 1yr/$3M than Dalembert at 4yrs/$18-20M. I think that's what each guy will realistically command on the open market, though the Bobcats might overpay for Kwame, considering he had arguably the best season of his career for them last season.

Saying I'd rather have somebody is in no way saying he's a better player. I'm saying I'd take the guy that will bring more value to us. And getting extremely similar production from a guy that plays the same game as Dalembert at a fraction of the price.

We're talking about Plan B if Chandler doesn't re-sign with the Mavs, why in the hell would you replace him with ANYONE that's getting paid 1yr/$3m??? We're trying to win a championship - 4yrs/$18-20m is more in the ballpark for a guy that can help you win more than just lotto balls...

I'd rather roll with Haywood/Mahinmi than waste any amount of money on a spare like Kwame Brown.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I will again reiterate that I have zero interest in giving Butler more than a one year deal.

Seconded.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by Underdog

We're talking about Plan B if Chandler doesn't re-sign with the Mavs, why in the hell would you replace him with ANYONE that's getting paid 1yr/$3m??? We're trying to win a championship - 4yrs/$18-20m is in the ballpark for a guy that can actually help you win more than just lotto balls...

I'd rather roll with Haywood/Mahinmi than waste any amount of money on a spare like Kwame Brown.

My bad, I must have missed that part of the thread. I was talking more about potential free agent targets in general terms, or if we were using the amnesty clause on Haywood or something like that.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by spreedom

I have no idea why you'd say that last part, especially considering how strapped we'll be for cap space as we enter free agency. I'd rather look into signing a guy like Kwame for 1yr/$3M than Dalembert at 4yrs/$18-20M. I think that's what each guy will realistically command on the open market, though the Bobcats might overpay for Kwame, considering he had arguably the best season of his career for them last season.

Saying I'd rather have somebody is in no way saying he's a better player. I'm saying I'd take the guy that will bring more value to us. And getting extremely similar production from a guy that plays the same game as Dalembert at a fraction of the price.

Let's remember that the Mavs don't even have the ability to offer a 4 yr/18-20M contract to someone that is not their own free agent. Unless they amnesty Haywood.

[dalger]

Originally Posted by jthig32

It locks up a roster spot and costs money against our budget, whatever it may be.

Even if Butler were healthy I would be reluctant to give him a significant multi-year deal. He was ineffective for us two years ago and his effectiveness last season was a small sample size based on defense and three point shooting that I don't believe he will continue.

I'm just not a believer in his fit. Marion is, and should continue to be our starting Small Forward. Also, Marion's effectiveness at PF is going to continue to decline as he gets older and loses quickness. So I don't think it makes sense to sign someone like Butler who is going to expect to play 25+ minutes a game at SF.

I don't think that a two-year deal worth $10-14 million would be too significant for a player who could very well turn out to actually be worth it. Losing a well-liked, team-oriented guy like Butler, his potential productivity and his desirable effect on Dirk's and Marion's minutes because of unwillingness to offer him two years instead of one wouldn't exactly thrill me, to be honest.

I'd actually argue that he was a pretty good fit alongside Dirk and Marion. At the time he got hurt, he was arguably our best scorer behind Dirk and stepped up big time as soon as Dirk injured his knee (admittedly, only for a very short period of time). He's a two-way player who can easily be paired with an offensive or defensive minded shooting guard, thus providing us with a nice deal of flexibility at the wings. It's also worth noting that, while he might expect to play 25+ minutes, Caron was fine with being on the bench during crunch time and living up to Rick's "role acceptance" mantra.

Finally, it comes down to alternatives. Right now, our alternatives at the forward spots are Brewer and Cardinal. Not adding Butler to that list due to his effect on a payroll that'll be lower than last year's anyway doesn't make sense to me, assuming that we're talking about a two-year deal. Plus, we could re-sign Chandler, JJB, Butler and Cardinal and still have an open spot on our roster.

Again, I'm not preferring a two-year deal, yet it wouldn't bother me in the slightest to take that risk. The potential upside of having Caron play some decent basketball with a reasonable salary until 2013 is something I'd prefer over losing him for a mere and meaningless $6 million.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Let's remember that the Mavs don't even have the ability to offer a 4 yr/18-20M contract to someone that is not their own free agent. Unless they amnesty Haywood.

How does that amnesty clause work anyway - when does a player have to be waived? Could we waive Haywood in the middle of negotiating with Chandler (if we found it necessary to free up a little more cap space), or is this something that needs to be determined before free agency?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dalger

I don't think that a two-year deal worth $10-14 million would be too significant for a player who could very well turn out to actually be worth it. Losing a well-liked, team-oriented guy like Butler, his potential productivity and his desirable effect on Dirk's and Marion's minutes because of unwillingness to offer him two years instead of one wouldn't exactly thrill me, to be honest.

I'd actually argue that he was a pretty good fit alongside Dirk and Marion. At the time he got hurt, he was arguably our best scorer behind Dirk and stepped up big time as soon as Dirk injured his knee (admittedly, only for a very short period of time). He's a two-way player who can easily be paired with an offensive or defensive minded shooting guard, thus providing us with a nice deal of flexibility at the wings. It's also worth noting that, while he might expect to play 25+ minutes, Caron was fine with being on the bench during crunch time and living up to Rick's "role acceptance" mantra.

Finally, it comes down to alternatives. Right now, our alternatives at the forward spots are Brewer and Cardinal. Not adding Butler to that list due to his effect on a payroll that'll be lower than last year's anyway doesn't make sense to me, assuming that we're talking about a two-year deal. Plus, we could re-sign Chandler, JJB, Butler and Cardinal and still have an open spot on our roster.

Again, I'm not preferring a two-year deal, yet it wouldn't bother me in the slightest to take that risk. The potential upside of having Caron play some decent basketball with a reasonable salary until 2013 is something I'd prefer over losing him for a mere and meaningless $6 million.

Two things:

1. I don't understand how you can say that he's a good fit with Dirk and Marion when he can't be on the floor with both of them.

2. I'ts not 6 million, it's 12 million. And keep in mind that we're going to have to stay under the Luxury Tax twice in the next five years or face even more ridiculous penalties. You can no longer just say "I really don't want to lose him, eff it we'll give him an extra year even though we really don't want to".

The bottom line for me is that we acquired Butler to be our SG, only to discover that he couldn't play the position. They made it work last year and no one's saying that it's a bad thing to have two starting caliber SF's on the roster, but he's not a great fit, and we have Brewer who I think the Mavs expect to contribute this season.

[sefant77]

9th december taking forever....pffffffffffff

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Underdog

How does that amnesty clause work anyway - when does a player have to be waived? Could we waive Haywood in the middle of negotiating with Chandler (if we found it necessary to free up a little more cap space), or is this something that needs to be determined before free agency?

As far as we know right now, it just has to be the off season. And it doesn't even have to be this off season, it can be any time during the current CBA.

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Two things:

1. I don't understand how you can say that he's a good fit with Dirk and Marion when he can't be on the floor with both of them.

He is a good fit because this three could pull off a great forward rotation, keeping everyones minutes low, winning games and going fresh into the playoffs. He proved last november and december that he (finally) adjusted his game and he was a great fit (and 2nd best Mavs in december).

I just dont want to rely on Brewer (yet).

One of the really "wow" things about playoffs was that we were able to dodge a huge bullet going through with a Marion/Peja/Stevenson SF rotation, specially with playing the Thunder and Heat.

We got lucky that Marion was able to play heavy minutes without foul trouble or injuries. And yes Butler comes off an injury but in the same time his price tag is reduced.

[CATCH-17]

Originally Posted by 41mvp

I hope D.Nelson will keep Tyson with us...

If he doesn't we won't make it back to the Finals.