Official Rangers off season thread

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Young never won a gg at 2b and shouldnt have won one at second. I dont really mind this plan much if andrus and kinsler stay healthy but its important to understand how bad defensively Young would be at the MI spots. Both andrus and Kinsler appear to be +10 defenders at their respective positions(to me though they were both well below that last year) Young is likely a -15 defender at second where his arm cant help make up for his terrible range and a -15 defender at short. So basically you are looking at a gigantic dropoff defensively playing young at either of those positions. Can he play them in a pinch? Sure. Is it pretty much a season damning move if you have to put him out there for more than 20 or so games? YES

I'll just have to agree to disagree, although I didn't realize he didn't get a gold glove while on 2.

In 2002, Young placed 2nd in fielding with a .988 fielding percentage. In 2003, Young was 3rd in the league in hits with 204, and led all second baseman with a batting average of .306. Young had a fielding percentage of .987.

Suffice it to say that he was pretty good at 2nd though, and wouldn't be near as bad as you say, IMO. SS is where the range comes into play, and IMO, there are not 25 balls in a year that Andrus makes the play that MY wouldn't.

Has his range lessened with age - yes. Was his range great to begin with - no. Would he still be solid though -- sure. David Eckstein was a shortstop that had no range, had less than the arm of MY, and was still an all-star. He has 2 WS rings and was nothing but solid.

IMO -- MY could be better today than Eckstein ever was, and you are only talking about using him to give guys days off, or in case of injury. I think he would be a great utility guy.

[jthig32]

With all due respect, you're absolutely out of your mind if you don't think there are 25 balls in a year that Andrus gets to that Young doesn't. Keep in mind it's not just grounders, it's also all the popups to shallow center and foul territory in left.

There's absolutely no point in mentioning that Young won a GG at short. It has absolutely no meaning. And fielding percentage doesn't assess range at all. In fact it's quite the opposite; low range fielders usually have better fielding percentages because they have less chances to make errors.

I would be fine with Young being DH and filling in at other positions at times. But he can't be your utility infielder. You'd still need Blanco on the roster. Because you can't have a utility infielder that's significantly below average defensively at all three positions.

[Male30Dan]

Hence the 1B option. Range is least important here when compared to 2B/SS/3B and he catches and throws just fine. He would also give us average to above average offense from the 1B position, something we haven't had since Tex left. If he is there and you sign Vlad back for DH and have Beltre at 3B you have improved offense in 2 of the 3 (keeping offense the same at DH) and improved defense overall with Beltre adding way more than Young takes away from Moreland at first.

If I was running this ship, that would be the way I would go for 1-2 years before Young must be a DH, Vlad retires, and another option presents itself at 1B. He is just too bad defensivley at 3B/SS/2B for me to want to do the utility infielder thing and I don't want to lose Vlad's offense without improving the output of 1B. Had we traded for AGon like Boston did, sure, then I would say move Young to DH and the drop off in offense from Vlad to Young would not be a problem due to AGons numbers being much better than Morelands, but as it stands this is the best option I see to improve offense and defense without committing a ton of money to do it (just resigning Vlad at roughly what he made last year and then adding Beltre's contract).

[sike]

Dalmatian: There aren't 25 balls...

Thig: There certainly are 25 balls...

One thing IS certain, Young's range and reflexes are both on the poor side for a professional infielder. I'm not sure his bat is worth the pain of watching field. If you can, move him along in a trade. (I would love that!)

[sike]

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Hence the 1B option. Range is least important here when compared to 2B/SS/3B and he catches and throws just fine. He would also give us average to above average offense from the 1B position, something we haven't had since Tex left.

Do we know that Moreland isn't a legit MLB hitter at this point? He sure was good in the playoff run. A lefty bat with some pop is so nice in the Ballpark.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by sike

Dalmatian: There aren't 25 balls...

Thig: There certainly are 25 balls...

One thing IS certain, Young's range and reflexes are both on the poor side for a professional infielder. I'm not sure his bat is worth the pain of watching field. If you can, move him along in a trade. (I would love that!)

I have to agree with Thiggy here. There are probably 25 balls per month that he gets to that Young can't (I am only slightly being sarcastic here). Andrus is just such a damn stud regarding his range.

[jthig32]

I'm just not sure why anyone would assume that Young would be average or above at first. That's what people thought about him moving to third. He has a strong arm and sure hands, and you need almost no range to play third. People thought he'd be an asset defensively there. Smart people, I mean. And he's terrible.

And with first have you the similar reaction times for balls down the line, and you also have the completely foreign concept of receiving throws from across the infield. This isn't something that people just pick up with ease. They tried it with Murphy in spring training and they tried it with Francoer before the playoffs and it was apparently so bad that they didn't even think about trying it in a game.

It's certainly possible that he might take to it, but I don't know that it's safe at all to assume that he would be even average there. And I think you risk letting his hitting suffer as he tries to learn yet another position.

On the flip side, he might rather do that than be a DH. Who knows.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by sike

Do we know that Moreland isn't a legit MLB hitter at this point? He sure was good in the playoff run. A lefty bat with some pop is so nice in the Ballpark.

The jury is still out on the kid as he only has 145 at bats in the regular season so far. With that said, he could turn out to be a stud or fizzle out like Davis has so far after an early power push prior to pitchers figuring him out.

He definitely showed signs of power though as he hit 9 homeruns and had 25 RBIs in only 47 games (while posting a very respectable .364 OBP). If you figure he has no dropoff at all (very, very unlikely) and has 600 ABs, you are looking at a guy who hits .255/.364/.469 with 37 HRs and 103 RBIs.

Again, he has about as much of a chance of putting that line up as I do in my humble opinion, but those are the numbers we have to judge him on thus far. Of course there is also the numbers from his minor league time and he has never shown signs of that kind of pop previously.

My honest expectations? Something like a .250/.340/.430 with 15 HRs and 60 RBIs if given a full year of playing time. Let's just say that I'm not as optimistic as Bill James (.281/.357/.472).

[Murphy3]

If he can post a .340 obp over the course of a full season next year, then I'd just assume put him in the lineup every day.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm just not sure why anyone would assume that Young would be average or above at first. That's what people thought about him moving to third. He has a strong arm and sure hands, and you need almost no range to play third. People thought he'd be an asset defensively there. Smart people, I mean. And he's terrible.

And with first have you the similar reaction times for balls down the line, and you also have the completely foreign concept of receiving throws from across the infield. This isn't something that people just pick up with ease. They tried it with Murphy in spring training and they tried it with Francoer before the playoffs and it was apparently so bad that they didn't even think about trying it in a game.

It's certainly possible that he might take to it, but I don't know that it's safe at all to assume that he would be even average there. And I think you risk letting his hitting suffer as he tries to learn yet another position.

On the flip side, he might rather do that than be a DH. Who knows.

First of all, the average number of balls you take at 1st on pitches put in play (off the bat mind you - I understand many throws go there) is a good bit less than those taken at 3rd, so similarly bad range is not as much of a problem there. I am making that statement from the simple fact that there are way more RH hitters in baseball and the majority of hitters are pull hitters.

Second of all, you can likely bet your ass that he would rather continue to play defense in some capacity than be relegated to a DH role, which is another reason I prefer this move.

To me, moving him to 1B is MUCH better than making him a utility infielder where his horrible range will negatively affect us more often. Catching balls in the dirt, typical throws, etc - I have no worries with Young there. He is a vacuum if the ball is hit to him. This would work - all it takes is signing Beltre and convincing Young to once again take one for the team.

[Murphy3]

There's alot to be said about a first baseman that can save errors by digging throws that are in the dirt. At this point, I don't have alot of faith in anything that Michael Young does defensively.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

If he can post a .340 obp over the course of a full season next year, then I'd just assume put him in the lineup every day.

Yeah, there is definitely the argument to be made that his great patience at the plate is a welcome addition to this lineup. With that said, I am more making the recommendation I am to improve our defense at 3B to better help our pitchers next year. I am also doing it because I would like to see a better line than 15/60 out of our first baseman. Getting on base via the walk is nice, absolutely, but when Torrealba/Borbon follows you I can envision him being stranded regularly.

Again, a case is there to give him the job though and I know that. I just think considering we are looking at option B/C now instead of where we wanted to be, improving the team as much as possible needs to be our focus.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

There's alot to be said about a first baseman that can save errors by digging throws that are in the dirt. At this point, I don't have alot of faith in anything that Michael Young does defensively.

One thing being lost by some around here is the fact that Moreland's defense leaves a lot to be desired himself. This cat is NOT Chris Davis (which is why I still find myself hoping he figures stuff out - he would be PERFECT for this team). The drop off that you would have from Moreland to Young in my honest opinion would only be one found in range, and again, Moreland isn't exactly Andrus out there.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Yeah, there is definitely the argument to be made that his great patience at the plate is a welcome addition to this lineup. With that said, I am more making the recommendation I am to improve our defense at 3B to better help our pitchers next year. I am also doing it because I would like to see a better line than 15/60 out of our first baseman. Getting on base via the walk is nice, absolutely, but when Torrealba/Borbon follows you I can envision him being stranded regularly.

Again, a case is there to give him the job though and I know that. I just think considering we are looking at option B/C now instead of where we wanted to be, improving the team as much as possible needs to be our focus.

You do need to start planning for the future. You need some young and inexpensive talent to offset the cost of paying the big names. If you can get a .340 obp out of Moreland in his first full season, I would be ecstatic. The Rangers are about to start paying out the nose for Cruz and Hamilton.. there's nothing wrong with developing a little cheap talent...especially when they are patient at the plate.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

One thing being lost by some around here is the fact that Moreland's defense leaves a lot to be desired himself. This cat is NOT Chris Davis (which is why I still find myself hoping he figures stuff out - he would be PERFECT for this team). The drop off that you would have from Moreland to Young in my honest opinion would only be one found in range, and again, Moreland isn't exactly Andrus out there.

The thing I think you may be missing(and you may not be missing this) is that I think theres a much greater than 0 chance that Mitch Moreland is a better hitter than MY next season. Thats why i was so in favor of a trade(any trade) that got rid of young and most of his salary whether it brought back anything of value or not.

[Murphy3]

One thing is for sure.. Young needs to bump his OBP up a bit or he needs to drop in the lineup. With Elvis struggling for much of the second half and with Young's low OBP for a #2 hole guy, it hurt the team offensively.. just not enough guys getting on base for the middle of the lineup.

One thing the team desperately needs is a high OBP guy at the #1 or 2 spot. If Moreland can prove that he can work the count and get on base, I wouldn't be opposed at looking to him as a #2 guy at some point in the future. But, that's looking just a bit too far ahead.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

You do need to start planning for the future. You need some young and inexpensive talent to offset the cost of paying the big names. If you can get a .340 obp out of Moreland in his first full season, I would be ecstatic. The Rangers are about to start paying out the nose for Cruz and Hamilton.. there's nothing wrong with developing a little cheap talent...especially when they are patient at the plate.

A fair point. I think though if you have to pay as much as you do for Young it should be in a role that he isn't nearly as much of a defensive liability personally. Maybe that means you trade him. Maybe it means he is your DH. Personally, the best way I see is to go as I suggested, but mainly because I want Vlad's bat in this lineup still and I have a huge mancrush on Beltre.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

The thing I think you may be missing(and you may not be missing this) is that I think theres a much greater than 0 chance that Mitch Moreland is a better hitter than MY next season. Thats why i was so in favor of a trade(any trade) that got rid of young and most of his salary whether it brought back anything of value or not.

Sure, I would be in favor of that still, but only if we then replace his salary with another talent as well. I don't want to drop Young's salary, add in Beltre (for much less than Lee would be) and call it an offseason unless the FO truly plans to spend what we were looking to spend this year, next year. I just want the days of 60m payrolls to be a thing of the past. Sure, don't spend just to spend, but if you can improve your ballclub and a 90m payroll is what has been generally agreed upon, spend the damn money and field the best team possible within those constraints.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

One thing is for sure.. Young needs to bump his OBP up a bit or he needs to drop in the lineup. With Elvis struggling for much of the second half and with Young's low OBP for a #2 hole guy, it hurt the team offensively.. just not enough guys getting on base for the middle of the lineup.

One thing the team desperately needs is a high OBP guy at the #1 or 2 spot. If Moreland can prove that he can work the count and get on base, I wouldn't be opposed at looking to him as a #2 guy at some point in the future. But, that's looking just a bit too far ahead.

We have all wanted Young dropped for a while now (just check out my best case/worst case scenario lineups and he is typically 6th-7th in the order, depending on new additions).

Give me Kinsler personally in the 2 hole, but you may be hoping for him to hit leadoff with Moreland hitting 2nd.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Sure, I would be in favor of that still, but only if we then replace his salary with another talent as well. I don't want to drop Young's salary, add in Beltre (for much less than Lee would be) and call it an offseason unless the FO truly plans to spend what we were looking to spend this year, next year. I just want the days of 60m payrolls to be a thing of the past. Sure, don't spend just to spend, but if you can improve your ballclub and a 90m payroll is what has been generally agreed upon, spend the damn money and field the best team possible within those constraints.

I just dont think michael young is a very good ball player. I would be looking to improve on his production if he was making 8 mil a year. It just wouldnt be nearly as hard to trade him.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

I just dont think michael young is a very good ball player. I would be looking to improve on his production if he was making 8 mil a year. It just wouldnt be nearly as hard to trade him.

Man, I definitely disagree there. He had a down year, but he has always been a clutch, high hit, fairly high RBI guy that certainly held his own with the bat. Sure, he could be more patient. Sure, if his lack of hits is here to stay his OBP is a major concern. With that said, I expect a bounce back year offensively from the guy.

To me, it is just his defense that is a huge worry. Sure, again, OBP could be better as he could definitely draw more walks, but if he is smashing 200+ hits and hovering around .310 or better it isn't a major problem all things considered. 5 out of the past 7 years he has had an OBP over .350. That isn't GREAT by any means, but it isn't horrible when you factor in everything else on offense.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Man, I definitely disagree there. He had a down year, but he has always been a clutch, high hit, fairly high RBI guy that certainly held his own with the bat. Sure, he could be more patient. Sure, if his lack of hits is here to stay his OBP is a major concern. With that said, I expect a bounce back year offensively from the guy.

To me, it is just his defense that is a huge worry. Sure, again, OBP could be better as he could definitely draw more walks, but if he is smashing 200+ hits and hovering around .310 or better it isn't a major problem all things considered. 5 out of the past 7 years he has had an OBP over .350. That isn't GREAT by any means, but it isn't horrible when you factor in everything else on offense.

Oh i think he used to be good with the stick, i just dont think hes going to be anymore. 2 of his last 3 seasons hes been at or below a 335 woba, 339 obp, and 774 ops. From a guy with a good glove at an important position that great, from a guy with an average glove at an important position its good. For a guy whose best defensive position is dh, its not cutting it.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Oh i think he used to be good with the stick, i just dont think hes going to be anymore. 2 of his last 3 seasons hes been at or below a 335 woba, 339 obp, and 774 ops. From a guy with a good glove at an important position that great, from a guy with an average glove at an important position its good. For a guy whose best defensive position is dh, its not cutting it.

Yeah, I guess that is the fundamental difference in our opinions of him. You think 2 of 3 means he continues to suck and I think 5 of 7 means he will bounce back. Either could be right - no doubt.

[sike]

Did anyone else hear that Lee said one thing he loved about the Philly franchise was that don't have to tell the fans when to cheer.

Thats a sorry way to backhand our fans. (Unless I'm just misreading it.)

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by sike

Did anyone else hear that Lee said one thing he loved about the Philly franchise was that don't have to tell the fans when to cheer.

Thats a sorry way to backhand our fans. (Unless I'm just misreading it.)

I still don't wish anything ill for Cliff Lee but I dont wish him well either. Taking what he feels is the right contract for himself and his family is one thing but he didn't need to take a shot at Rangers fans on the way out.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

Did anyone else hear that Lee said one thing he loved about the Philly franchise was that don't have to tell the fans when to cheer.

Thats a sorry way to backhand our fans. (Unless I'm just misreading it.)

It's certainly not a pleasant thing to read, but I doubt he meant it with any malice. It's also true; the vast majority if fans at Ranger games aren't all that tuned in, and conversely, the atmosphere in Philly is unbelievable.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

It's certainly not a pleasant thing to read, but I doubt he meant it with any malice. It's also true; the vast majority if fans at Ranger games aren't all that tuned in, and conversely, the atmosphere in Philly is unbelievable.

The atmosphere in the playoffs for the rangers matched/exceded any atmosphere in any ballpark but fenway. Im generally one to gripe about Dallas fans, but they came through in a big way for the rangers as far as being excited and doing a good job of conveying that.

[mavspwnage]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

The atmosphere in the playoffs for the rangers matched/exceded any atmosphere in any ballpark but fenway. Im generally one to gripe about Dallas fans, but they came through in a big way for the rangers as far as being excited and doing a good job of conveying that.

yeah it was electric, not only on the TV, but in person. Being at those playoff games was something to behold. Too bad the Rangers were 0-3 for the games I went to.

[Mav Addict]

I don't think it was a back handed comment at all ... I think he's simply noting the passion that Philly fans usually display for all of their teams.... It comes both ways because they will boo the hell out of you during bad times

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

The atmosphere in the playoffs for the rangers matched/exceded any atmosphere in any ballpark but fenway. Im generally one to gripe about Dallas fans, but they came through in a big way for the rangers as far as being excited and doing a good job of conveying that.

No, it didn't. There were games where it was great, for sure. There were games where you could get the chills just through the tv. But I was at game four against Tampa (among others) and it was it was anything but electric. In fact I would describe it as resigned.

And there were still PLENTY of times where the scoreboard had to prompt for reaction.

They did a good job, but saying they exceeded Philly is fairly ludicrous. That Philly atmosphere is insane.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by mavspwnage

yeah it was electric, not only on the TV, but in person. Being at those playoff games was something to behold. Too bad the Rangers were 0-3 for the games I went to.

man, and you said that on Mavs games you're 0-4? Dang...from now on, you're only allowed to go to FC Dallas games, because nobody cares about them anyway.

edit: No, wait, that was Rick41. You were talking about starting a GDT. My bad. You have permission to go to Dallas sports game again.

[mavspwnage]

Originally Posted by tcat075

man, and you said that on Mavs games you're 0-4? Dang...from now on, you're only allowed to go to FC Dallas games, because nobody cares about them anyway.

edit: No, wait, that was Rick41. You were talking about starting a GDT. My bad. You have permission to go to Dallas sports game again.

haha what's odd is that my regular season record was great. I had a season mini plan of 16 games, and probably ended up going to about 18 games total. And the Rangers were something like 15-3 when I went. Then my luck ran out in the playoffs.

[jthig32]

Well, unfortunately the people saying the Rangers system didn't match up well with that the Royal wanted appear to have been right.

At this point, I think I sign a DH, sign Brandon Webb to be a lottery ticket, and head into the season looking to be opportunistic at the deadline (again).

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well, unfortunately the people saying the Rangers system didn't match up well with that the Royal wanted appear to have been right.

At this point, I think I sign a DH, sign Brandon Webb to be a lottery ticket, and head into the season looking to be opportunistic at the deadline (again).

Yeah, while its a disappointing offseason, I don't think the front office is to blame. They were rejected by Kansas City, and they were rejected by Cliff Lee, and they were rejected because they refused to be ridiculous. 7 years to Lee is pretty ridiculous. Offering Elvis Andrus is a trade (not proven, but AJM mentioned that they KC might have been wanting him) would have been ridiculous. Don't blame them.

Its too bad that's about it for all the players on the market. There's some decent pieces, but nothing that is likely to make a significant impact. However, this team was going to win the division easily last year without Cliff Lee, so while the rotation may be a little weak and unproven, this is still a really good club...missing out of Lee and Grienke does not return us to 84-80 status finishing third in the division. Not at all.

[Male30Dan]

Well, we "easily" won the division primarily because of that run through the NL during interleague play. Say what you want, but that stretch of games was the main difference. We played rather poor teams and our other division opponents played some pretty good teams.

We didn't make the schedule of course, but I am just saying, that stretch allowed us to extend our lead to what it became instead of likely treading water and carrying a 1-3 game lead into the final couple of weeks.

My point? Oakland and LA will be improved (much improved likely) and we have potentially regressed (if we don't sign Vlad we have DEFINITELY regressed, but possibly even with him if he only had one pretty good year left).

I agree that we shouldn't be looking at a .500 club (though we definitely could be with an injury to Colby/Wilson), but we may be looking at another year without the playoffs. I would not at all be surprised by that outcome given this absolutely horrendous offseason.

When you think of what we COULD have had, this is about as horrible as possible. It isn't over yet, but all indications are that we are not going to get ANYONE other than Vlad and some shit stick of a consolation prize as a SP candidate.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Well, we "easily" won the division primarily because of that run through the NL during interleague play. Say what you want, but that stretch of games was the main difference. We played rather poor teams and our other division opponents played some pretty good teams.

We didn't make the schedule of course, but I am just saying, that stretch allowed us to extend our lead to what it became instead of likely treading water and carrying a 1-3 game lead into the final couple of weeks.

My point? Oakland and LA will be improved (much improved likely) and we have potentially regressed (if we don't sign Vlad we have DEFINITELY regressed, but possibly even with him if he only had one pretty good year left).

I agree that we shouldn't be looking at a .500 club (though we definitely could be with an injury to Colby/Wilson), but we may be looking at another year without the playoffs. I would not at all be surprised by that outcome given this absolutely horrendous offseason.

When you think of what we COULD have had, this is about as horrible as possible. It isn't over yet, but all indications are that we are not going to get ANYONE other than Vlad and some shit stick of a consolation prize as a SP candidate.

You, madam, can be known as NEGATIVE NANCY!

[mavspwnage]

What I am anxious to find out is how much ticket prices will increase in 2011. In March I bought a 16 (2 seats) game mini plan (upper level 339) for about $140 total. That is with taxes, shipping, everything. So that is 32 seats for $140. Terrific deal and I plan to buy the same thing this year. Interested to see how much I will be paying this time. Don't care, I'll buy it regardless. It was so worth it.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by mavspwnage

What I am anxious to find out is how much ticket prices will increase in 2011. In March I bought a 16 (2 seats) game mini plan (upper level 339) for about $140 total. That is with taxes, shipping, everything. So that is 32 seats for $140. Terrific deal and I plan to buy the same thing this year. Interested to see how much I will be paying this time. Don't care, I'll buy it regardless. It was so worth it.

Honestly, if ticket prices in your case were to double, you would still buy it, wouldn't you?

[mavspwnage]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Honestly, if ticket prices in your case were to double, you would still buy it, wouldn't you?

Absolutely. The low prices weren't the best part of the deal. It wasn't even second best. That belongs to the fact that more than half of those 16 were dollar hot dog games. That's reason enough to go to a game.

The best part of the whole deal was the ability to buy playoff tickets in the presale before they were available to the public. That meant getting World Series tickets for $70 when those same seats were selling for about $900 on stubhub.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You, madam, can be known as NEGATIVE NANCY!

Hey, I called the Mavs offseason a debacle so what do I know. That said, let those that don't qualify as Miss Optimistic (JJ comes to mind, among many others) cast the first Negative Nancy stone.