Dirk vs. Kobe... the playoffs

[Murphy3]

We all know that Kobe has the ultimate trump card in 5 rings. Of course, Dirk has never had a supporting cast that would approach any of Kobe's when he was a part of those 5 championship rings. So, what do the playoff numbers say? Of course, Dirk's numbers will be listed first:
Dirk - Kobe
Pts/game - 25.7 - 25.4
FG% - 45.9 - 44.8
3pt% - 37.4 - 33.8
FT attempts per game - 8.83 - 7.37
FT% - 88.3 - 81.6
Reb - 10.7 - 5.1
Ast - 2.6 - 4.8
TOV - 2.21 - 2.95
WS/48 - .206 - .161
TS% - .579 - .543
Per - 24.7 - 22.4

[Murphy3]

Interestingly enough, Dirk has a slight to big edge in every category except Assists. I didn't pull steals or blocks, but I'm sure that Dirk would take one category and Kobe would take the other. The point is that NBA fans tend to put Kobe on a cloud above the rest of the NBA. I don't believe that it's necessarily 100% justified by any stretch of the imagination.

[Underdog]

I can't believe this is the first time Dirk & Kobe have met in the playoffs...

[SMC0007]

The German Mongoose (no, not the famous sex move)

vs

The Black Mamba!

[Mav Addict]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I can't believe this is the first time Dirk & Kobe have met in the playoffs...

Thats what I keep telling these dorky ass Laker fans at my job....they think they have some kinda edge on us due to the past, but there is no playoff past between the Mavs and Lakers...idiots

Nothing is more irritating than discussing playoff basketball with people in the office who don't even watch the game until the Finals start...then they start wearing those ugly yellow Lakers jerseys talking about the Lakers are gonna win the trophy tonight......like its a one game series

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by Mav Addict

Thats what I keep telling these dorky ass Laker fans at my job....they think they have some kinda edge on us due to the past, but there is no playoff past between the Mavs and Lakers...idiots

Nothing is more irritating than discussing playoff basketball with people in the office who don't even watch the game until the Finals start...then they start wearing those ugly yellow Lakers jerseys talking about the Lakers are gonna with trophy tonight......like its a one games series

You forget the epic battle of 88, where we took them to 7. There were several other playoff series with them that dot the 80's, possibly two other seasons. This is the first time Dirk and Kobe will get to see each other on the court in the playoffs.

[Mav Addict]

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

You forget the epic battle of 88, where we took them to 7. There were several other playoff series with them that dot the 80's, possibly two other seasons. This is the first time Dirk and Kobe will get to see each other on the court in the playoffs.

My bad I was referring to the Dirk/Kobe era

[OSUmavsfan]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

We all know that Kobe has the ultimate trump card in 5 rings. Of course, Dirk has never had a supporting cast that would approach any of Kobe's when he was a part of those 5 championship rings. So, what do the playoff numbers say? Of course, Dirk's numbers will be listed first:
Dirk - Kobe
Pts/game - 25.7 (+11.7%) - 25.4 (+0.4%)
FG% - 45.9 (-3.57%) - 44.8 (-1.32%)
3pt% - 37.4 (-1.84%) - 33.8 (-0.29%)
FT attempts per game - 8.83 (+35.85%) - 7.37 (-3.03%)
FT% - 88.3 (+0.68%) - 81.6 (-2.51%)
Reb - 10.7 (+27.38%) - 5.1 (-3.77%)
Ast - 2.6 (-3.70%) - 4.8 (+2.13%)
TOV - 2.21 (+16.32%) - 2.95 (+1.72%)
WS/48 - .206 (-3.74%) - .161 (-13.90%)
TS% - .579 (-0.69%) - .543 (-2.34%)
Per - 24.7 (+4.22%) - 22.4 (-4.68%)

I added the percent change from their regular season numbers. Dirk really does elevate his game more during the playoffs. 35% increase in free throw attempts and 27% increase in rebounding are crazy jumps. Kobe seems to be more or less the same player from regular season to postseason, which is fine since it's gotten him 5 rings. Still, this is yet another indicator that what Dirk does is vastly under-appreciated nationally.

[Mavsfan4ever]

I wish some of these so called experts would check these stats.There is one other area Dirk has Kobe beat that you will not find on any stat sheet that is as a person.

[OneLove22]

screw Kobe I'll take Dirk anyday over him.

[Murphy3]

When it comes to the playoffs, the numbers speak loudly. And it certainly isn't a small sample size. Despite an increased focus on shutting down Dirk, he becomes more efficient.. It's amazing when you consider that he was already an extremely efficient player in the regular season.

[nowhereman]

Dirk > Kobe. 5 rings mean sh*t when you can't play without Phil Jackson/Shaq/Pau and get more than 37 wins a season. Kobe = overrated trash.

[Dnowit41]

F*ck Kobe! Lets go Mavs!

[Kobe24]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

Dirk > Kobe. 5 rings mean sh*t when you can't play without Phil Jackson/Shaq/Pau and get more than 37 wins a season. Kobe = overrated trash.

Dirk > Kobe?

[OneLove22]

Originally Posted by Kobe24

Dirk > Kobe?

Hell ya... you about to see that on Monday.

Dirk is a more efficient player.

[Mavsfan4ever]

Dirk and the Mavericks will rape the rapist come Monday night.

[Kobe24]

I see you guys have a couple screws loose.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Kobe24

I see you guys have a couple screws loose.

Probably.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Yeah, it would make more sense if we regarded Kobe as the greatest player ever without question and without evidence.

[Kobe24]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Yeah, it would make more sense if we regarded Kobe as the greatest player ever without question and without evidence.

Right kinda like it makes sense to say Dirk > Kobe when evidence proves otherwise. Saying Dirk > Kobe means that Dirk is top 10 all time.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by Kobe24

Right kinda like it makes sense to say Dirk > Kobe when evidence proves otherwise. Saying Dirk > Kobe means that Dirk is top 10 all time.

People think that because in America, rings means everything. They don't bother to actually look into the circumstances. Dirk never had a supporting cast that was nearly as good as any of Bryant's championship teams. Nowhere near good. Dirk took a starting five of Jason Terry, Adrian Griffin, Josh Howard, Dasagana Diop to the finals. When Kobe had similar talent, they won 37 games.


Every advanced stat tells you that Dirk is better. You say rings, i say basketball is not a one man game. Dirk scores more in the playoffs, on much better efficiency than Bryant. The Bryant-Shaq Lakers won around 20 percent of their games, when Shaq was out, and Bryant was playing. They were a lottery team. (100+ games sample size).

When Bryant was out, and Shaq was playing? Their winning percentage was the same when they were both playing, around 70%. If you really think that Dirk wouldn't have won those same 3 championships playing beside the most dominating low post presence of all-time, you really are a big homer. Dirk actually would have been a better fit, playing style-wise, and chemistry-wise as well.

The clutch myth? Tell me something. How is this possible that Dirk shooting a significantly better percentage in the clutch, and yet everybody for some reason thinks Bryant is more clutch? Heck, he's not even in the top 20 i think efficiency-wise in the clutch. He just takes every freakin' shot, absolutely ignoring the rules of the triangle. You don't have bother with facts, and i don't blame you. The truth stays the same, Dirk never had teammates like Shaq, heck even a Gasol, or even somebody like Artest, or Odom. If you would switch their careers, Kobe probably has no rings right now.

[Murphy3]

I'm not saying that Dirk is a better player than Kobe. I'm simply illustrating what the stats say about their performances in the playoffs. Some of Kobe's numbers are actually hurt because he has almost always had a great supporting cast. However, some of his numbers that you would think would be higher because of the supporting cast actually aren't such as TS% and efficiency ratings.

That's the awesome thing about Dirk. He becomes more efficient in the playoffs despite increased attention by the other team with stopping him, consistently playing better opponents, and with much higher stakes. How many players can say that? He raises his level from a 1st team all nba type player to a top 1-3 player in the league.

[Bynum4MVP]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

Dirk > Kobe. 5 rings mean sh*t when you can't play without Phil Jackson/Shaq/Pau and get more than 37 wins a season. Kobe = overrated trash.

Lakers won 45 games in 2006. No Shaq/no Pau.

Kobe also made the Playoffs with a China league starting lineup of Smush Parker, Kwamay Brown and Luke Walton and Lamar Odom.

And even if you forget the past and look at the present, Kobe was also the one who made the shot that puts the Lakers in the #2 seed and at home to start this Mavs/Lakers series.

Without clutch Kobe's shot, the Lakers would be visiting Texas this Monday; not the other way around.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by Bynum4MVP

Kobe also made the Playoffs with a China league starting lineup of Smush Parker, Kwamay Brown and Luke Walton and Lamar Odom..

Sometimes it's not about the rings. When he takes that lineup to the finals, then we can talk.

[Murphy3]

You won't get any disagreement from me. Kobe is a clutch scorer without a doubt.

[Bynum4MVP]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Sometimes it's not about the rings. When he takes that lineup to the finals, then we can talk.

Even the Great Michael Jordan couldn't win without Pippen.

There's no point in penalizing Kobe for not making a Champion out of Smush Parker.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by Bynum4MVP

Even the Great Michael Jordan couldn't win without Pippen.

There's no point in penalizing Kobe for not making a Champion out of Smush Parker.

I think that's his point.. People DO penalize Dirk for not winning a championship yet despite having some rather mediocre supporting casts assembled around him. This year probably would have been the best supporting cast that he had ever had until Caron Butler was injured. But now, it's definitely not what you'd consider a championship caliber supporting cast without Butler.

[Bynum4MVP]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I think that's his point.. People DO penalize Dirk for not winning a championship yet despite having some rather mediocre supporting casts assembled around him. This year probably would have been the best supporting cast that he had ever had until Caron Butler was injured. But now, it's definitely not what you'd consider a championship caliber supporting cast without Butler.

Only stupid people penalize Dirk for not winning a Championship.

Dirk's one of the greatest PF's to play the game regardless of Rings just like other ringless great players in Barkley, Malone.

[Murphy3]

Unfortunately, you're correct. But guess what.. there's alot of stupid people out there especially here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. It's enraging to hear people in this area criticize Dirk so harshly for not winning a title yet.

The point of my thread wasn't to say that Kobe hasn't been great... It's to point out that Dirk's numbers are actually a bit better in the playoffs than one of the greatest players in the history of the game. That doesn't take anything away from Kobe..but it should obviously say something huge about Dirk.

[Bynum4MVP]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Unfortunately, you're correct. But guess what.. there's alot of stupid people out there especially here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. It's enraging to hear people in this area criticize Dirk so harshly for not winning a title yet.

The point of my thread wasn't to say that Kobe hasn't been great... It's to point out that Dirk's numbers are actually a bit better in the playoffs than one of the greatest players in the history of the game. That doesn't take anything away from Kobe..but it should obviously say something huge about Dirk.

You don't have to convince me...Dirk's always been huge in the Playoffs.

Mavs were robbed in 2006.

And if Cuban had a do-over, I'd bet he'd have paid Nash what he wanted...that would have changed a good number of the 2000 era Championships.

[nowhereman]

Alright I've expressed my Kobe hate enough times in enough places. Props on the 2 shots he hit against Sacramento (altho not for his garbage play the whole 6 minutes before that which allowed the Kings to get back in the first place).

This is gonna be a damn good series. I think it's a toss-up, and it has 2 of the top 5 players in the NBA on opposing teams. First series this year that can say that.

[Scott McGuire]

Great stats Murphy. I'm so psyched to see how this unfolds. I'd still say 60% likely Lakers win, but its 95% likely that Dirk will be awesome in one of the highest profile series in his career.

[nowhereman]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...owitzki_042911

PORTLAND, Ore. – Dirk Nowitzki shushed the NBA’s loudest arena, beating back the Portland Trail Blazers and some of his own playoff demons. No first-round flameout this year. The Dallas Mavericks bent, but didn’t break. Nowitzki deserved to appreciate the moment, and yet as he walked off the Rose Garden floor someone was quick to remind him what’s waiting next.

“Beat L.A.!”


Beat L.A. For Nowitzki and his Mavericks, that’s both battle cry and burden. No one will expect much of the Mavs in their series with the Los Angeles Lakers just like no one expected much of them against the Blazers. Nowitzki also knows that doesn’t matter. If the Mavericks are ever going to erase the stain of all that postseason failure, they need to do something special.

Beating the Blazers doesn’t qualify.

Beating the two-time defending champion Lakers would.

“When I first got to the Mavericks, our big goal was making the playoffs,” Nowitzki said. “That goal obviously changed the last couple years. Once you’ve been in the playoffs for a number of years, you want to win it all.”

Championship or bust. That’s been the Mavericks’ mantra nearly every season since they coughed up a 2-0 lead to the Miami Heat in the 2006 NBA Finals. Each year, they’ve busted, sometimes spectacularly so. The eighth-seeded Golden State Warriors knocked them out of the first round in 2007; the seventh-seeded San Antonio Spurs did the same a year ago.

In truth, even the Mavericks didn’t consider themselves legit title contenders in some of those years. This season was supposed to be different. Mark Cuban assembled these Mavs to challenge the Lakers. They didn’t expect to lose Caron Butler along the way, but their roster was deep enough to overcome it. Had Kobe Bryant not thrown in a late 3-pointer against the Sacramento Kings on the final night of the regular season, the Mavericks would have finished with a better record than the Lakers and landed the Western Conference’s No. 2 seed.

Instead, the Mavs will open their conference semifinal series Monday in L.A. It’s one round earlier than they would have preferred, but the timing matters little. Today or two weeks from today, Nowitzki and the Mavericks needed the Lakers. They needed a challenge only the Lakers can provide: Go toe-to-toe with them, and the Mavs finally prove they deserve to stand among the league’s elite.

“We got a chance to go against the world champs,” Jason Kidd said.

Embrace the moment, Kidd seemed to be saying, and this fits well with how the Mavericks will try to frame this series. If everyone expected them to lose to the Blazers, then everyone should expect them to lose to the Lakers. Where’s the pressure in that?

Dallas hasn’t met the Lakers in the postseason in nearly a quarter century. Unlike the Spurs, these Mavs aren’t haunted by the ghosts of Kobe’s and Shaq’s past. There’s no bigger stage in the sport than a playoff series with the Lakers, and the Mavs will soon realize as much, if they haven’t already.

Cuban should enjoy this more than any of them. He’s already said he wants to work with Charlie Sheen. Does he invite him to deliver the pregame pep talk?

Buying the Dodgers could also fill an off day for the Mavs’ owner. Tyson Chandler, who grew up in the shadow of Los Angeles, gets to play the Lakers in front of his family and friends. And Kidd and Kobe will find themselves matched against each other at some point in the series, two great warriors testing the limits of their competitiveness once more.

Yet none of them will have as much to gain – or lose – as Nowitzki. The Lakers offer opponents the chance to right some wrongs, to redefine their legacies. Just ask Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen. Play well against the Lakers, and everyone notices. Sometimes you don’t even need to win to realize the benefit. After watching Chris Paul splinter the Lakers’ defense in the first round, several reporters had the same question: Is it too late to recast my MVP ballot?

If the Mavericks can’t compete, if they can’t make this a series, it will hang on Nowitzki more than anyone, just like it always does. Every playoff loss has always been taken as a referendum on his toughness, on his ability to lead. Maybe it’s because he’s European. Or because he’s 7-feet tall and his jump shot is so sweet. Each misstep in the postseason is met by the same pointed criticism from all those former players turned studio analysts:

If the Mavs can’t win, then clearly Nowitzki lacks heart.

In a lot of ways, Nowitzki is not unlike David Robinson before Tim Duncan joined his side. Robinson waded through the same torrent of criticism each year the Spurs went out early in the playoffs. Many times, it should have been an indictment on the supporting cast around him rather than his own shortcomings.

The soft label has never really fit Nowitzki, no matter how many times someone tries to hang it on him. He plays tough. He plays clutch. This series offered more evidence. In three of the Mavs’ four victories, Nowitzki scored 18, 14 and 14 points in the fourth quarters. On Thursday, the Blazers’ Chris Johnson raked Nowitzki across the face, a flagrant foul that left Nowitzki sprawled on his back. After a few moments, Nowitzki picked himself up, made both free throws then promptly stuck a step-back jump shot. The next time down the floor, he drove for a reverse layup.

“Toughness doesn’t always mean throwing a punch back,” Chandler said. “It means getting up and going at ‘em even tougher. … Dirk got up. Instead of getting in some dumb altercation, he said, ‘All right, I’m going to punish you.’ ”

The Lakers aren’t the Blazers. The Mavs can nearly match L.A.’s length, but not its strength and physicality. From Pau Gasol to Andrew Bynum to Ron Artest to Lamar Odom, the Lakers can rotate a series of big bodies on Nowitzki. In their last meeting of the regular season, the Lakers bullied the Mavs until they came unhinged. By the end of the game, five players had been ejected.

“We can’t lose our composure like we did the last time there,” Nowitzki said.

But Nowitzki also has called these Mavs his greatest supporting cast yet. They’re experienced and more tough-minded than previous teams. Nor are they lacking for confidence. Not yet, at least.

“Our team has a strong belief in itself,” said the Mavs’ coach, Rick Carlisle.

Beat L.A.

For Nowitzki and these Mavs, that’s not just wishful thinking by a fan. That’s a mandate.

excellent article. This series can do so much for this Mavs team's legacy.

[Hitman]

I am super excited for this!

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Bynum4MVP

Lakers won 45 games in 2006. No Shaq/no Pau.

Kobe also made the Playoffs with a China league starting lineup of Smush Parker, Kwamay Brown and Luke Walton and Lamar Odom.

And even if you forget the past and look at the present, Kobe was also the one who made the shot that puts the Lakers in the #2 seed and at home to start this Mavs/Lakers series.

Without clutch Kobe's shot, the Lakers would be visiting Texas this Monday; not the other way around.

Yea but dirk had to play under Avery Johnson...JACK!

[snackdaddy]

Mavs fans consider Dirk to be better than Kobe. Well, they should. Dirk is their guy and has proven he's a great player. But outside of Texas, most people will look rank Kobe higher on the GOAT list because of his accomplishments. 5 championships, 2 finals MVP's and a league MVP. Did he do it with help from his teammates? Yes. Has anyone won a championship by themselves? No. Comparing the two is not fair to either. Dirk has not had the supporting cast so he will never be mentioned in the GOAT conversation outside of Texas. Is it fair? Maybe not. But thats just the way it is.

[dude1394]

they are both awesome basketball players. As murph has stated many times, the statistical comparison bears it out. I don't have to cut down one to appreciate the other.

But let's face it...Dirk has had to play with Nellie and Avery...one has never sniffed a championship and the other is a lunatic.

[tjeg]

You guys seem to forget that kobe started playing in the playoffs right from when he was a rookie. If you start from his first title winning season you will find out his playoffs stats are a lot higher. I'm not doubting dirk's ability to improve his game in the playoffs but kobe has played a lot more playoff games even when he just entered the league.

[Kobe24]

So penalize Kobe for winning 45 games with a garbage roster but don't penalize Dirk for being apart of the most embarrassing first round exit in basketball history. Kobe would have never allowed that. But point is saying Dirk > Kobe means that you guys feel Dirk is top 10 of all time since Kobe is regarded as top 10 of all time. Are you guys saying that?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Kobe24

but don't penalize Dirk for being apart of the most embarrassing first round exit in basketball history. Kobe would have never allowed that.

Complete and utter nonsense. As the spurs just illustrated. So duncan, parker, ginoblli WOULD allow it but Kobe wouldn't. Bull, absolute bull.