Mavs repeating tough, even as runner-up - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

kriD · 09-03-2006, 02:18 AM

Mavs repeating tough, even as runner-up

Mavs still want title, but first they have to find way back to Finals

By EDDIE SEFKO / The Dallas Morning News

The Mavericks open training camp one month from today, armed with new talent after a summer of smart – but not necessarily splashy – personnel moves.

It will guarantee them nothing in 2006-07.

Coach Avery Johnson's team is in an interesting position after losing in the NBA Finals in June. When Miami won the last four games after falling behind 2-0, it proved that the Mavericks still have weaknesses, even if they have become an annual threat to win the title.

Based on recent history, teams that lose in the Finals have a tough time making it back. Since 2000, only New Jersey in 2002-03 has managed a return to the Finals after losing them the previous year.

Not since Detroit in 1988 and '89 has a team lost in the NBA Finals and then won the title the following season.

Indiana and Philadelphia reached the Finals once, lost and still are waiting to return.

The Los Angeles Lakers (three times) and Detroit (once) won the title, but then followed up with a lost attempt in the Finals and haven't returned to the championship series since.

Obviously, the Mavericks hope to avoid that fate.

At least one person who has been in their position before believes they have a decent shot at getting back to the Finals again. But one of the same forces that stopped the Nets twice earlier this decade ended up foiling the Mavs – Shaquille O'Neal.

"The bottom line is that, to win it all, you have to have really good players, you have to play well and you need a little luck along the way," says Rod Thorn, the Nets' president who put together their Finals-worthy teams. "Dallas could have won that Miami series 4-1, or even swept it if they close out Game 3. It's just hard to win it. And unless you have that one tremendous player, it can come down to a lot of luck."

The Nets made a big trade after their first trip to the Finals, exchanging Keith Van Horn for the defense of Dikembe Mutombo in 2002. Then Mutombo sat out most of the season with injuries.

""What you find out as you go through a bunch of rounds in the playoffs is exactly what your weaknesses are, because they will show up," Thorn says. "Ours was depth, lack of shooting and Shaq."

O'Neal is still there. His team has won four of the last seven championships. If he isn't there already, one more ring would put O'Neal squarely on the short list with Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Russell for overall greatness, regardless of the yardstick.

For the Mavericks, getting to the Finals means they are an elite team. You don't blow up elite teams.

But when you fall short of the title, you also realize you are less than perfect. That's why the Mavericks reached out for role players Anthony Johnson, Greg Buckner and Austin Croshere and drafted an athletic guard who has a defensive attitude in Maurice Ager.

Not a single one of their top seven players was touched to acquire the incoming talent.

The Nets jettisoning Van Horn – at the time their second-leading scorer – for Mutombo qualified as a significant move.

Similarly, other teams that have lost in the Finals have added (and subtracted) major pieces on their roster before the following seasons. That may or may not have something to do with their less-than-stellar track record after reaching the Finals.

"It's going to be even harder to get back," Avery Johnson says. "But that's OK. It's not supposed to be easy. It wasn't the first time, and it won't be the next time."

As assistant coach Del Harris so eloquently said during the Finals, the Mavericks would love to repeat, but they wanted to peat first.

But falling short last year doesn't diminish what they have as they move forward.

"This is a good team that has a chance to be quite good if the nucleus stays together for a three- or four-year period," Harris says. "Just add the easy deals. You don't overreach.

"It's not likely in our situation that we'll get a LeBron James, a first-round draft pick that's going to make a big impact. It's more likely for us to get a sensible trade or a free-agent acquisition."

Which is exactly what the Mavericks did this summer.

Whether it will be enough is anybody's guess.

nashtymavsfan13 · 09-03-2006, 02:20 AM

It's going to be tough, but it definetly can be done. It's going to be a great season.

Flacolaco · 09-03-2006, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

It's going to be tough, but it definetly can be done. It's going to be a great season.

/agree

Purple&Gold · 09-03-2006, 03:37 AM

As long as David Stern is the owner anything is TOUGH.

Underdog · 09-03-2006, 04:07 AM

'88, '89 Pistons - '06, '07 Mavs? They wouldn't be the first to win after a near-miss! (Rocky Balboa vs. Apollo Creed, anyone???)

mqywaaah · 09-03-2006, 07:18 AM

Why not now? Why not us?

rabbitproof · 09-03-2006, 03:19 PM

Did that article, or quote, infer that Nowitzki isn't a tremendous player?

Son, best back up now.

nashtymavsfan13 · 09-03-2006, 05:51 PM

Yeah, that's what it sounds like, wow.

Tokey41 · 09-03-2006, 05:52 PM

History means NOTHING to me, that was then this is now and now not only are we prepared to be the odds on favorite we are slightly (albeit completely chemistry altered) more prepared to win it all with the verteans aquired. That said this article is although informative of history, useless to our current situation until we officially do not iwn the championship... and is anyone here really betting we wont?

I dont see them knocking Dirk anywhere though.

nashtymavsfan13 · 09-03-2006, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kriD

"The bottom line is that, to win it all, you have to have really good players, you have to play well and you need a little luck along the way," says Rod Thorn, the Nets' president who put together their Finals-worthy teams. "Dallas could have won that Miami series 4-1, or even swept it if they close out Game 3. It's just hard to win it. And unless you have that one tremendous player, it can come down to a lot of luck."

Sounds like Dirk knocking to me....

nashtymavsfan13 · 09-03-2006, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

History means NOTHING to me, that was then this is now and now not only are we prepared to be the odds on favorite we are slightly (albeit completely chemistry altered) more prepared to win it all with the verteans aquired. That said this article is although informative of history, useless to our current situation until we officially do not iwn the championship... and is anyone here really betting we wont?

I dont see them knocking Dirk anywhere though.

That's true, but it's also saying it's hard to get back to the Finals, even with a great team. We have the team, but that doesn't mean they'll win it. I'm pretty confident in their chances, but it's still going to be hard.

Underdog · 09-03-2006, 06:35 PM

No Dirk-bashing here - I believe the calibre of player that Sefko is referring to is the Jordan/Shaq/DWade-types who can get away with ANYTHING on the court because they're a *superstar*... Obviously, Dirk didn't prove himself as a superstar because the refs favored Wade a lot more in the Finals... [not to say that Dirk isn't a top-5 player, he just hasn't convinced the refs of this yet - apparently "Ref Love" is an important statistic in the NBA...]

Big Shot Rob · 09-03-2006, 06:40 PM

Until Dirk leads the Mavs to a title, he will face the same type of criticism that David Robinson used to endure until the first title in 1999. Critics constantly used to belittle Robinson for taking his squad to the playoffs but not being able to deliver.

I always hated this aspect of pundits and media. David Robinson meant so much to San Antonio. Still, we all remember how much this haunted David until Tim Duncan arrived. Together, they won two trophies.

The Mavs have all the ingredients to win a title. One thing that is intangible, however mentioned in the article--luck. There is always a little bit of luck in the run to the title--a big shot here or there, or a key play by a role player in waning seconds.

G-Man · 09-03-2006, 07:06 PM

What I liked about this article was seeing how other teams responded to almost winning. Most made major changes. The Mavs, as you may recall from this time last year, went into the season not expecting to get out of the 2nd round. Can someone find the link to last year's ESPN pre-season predictions? I don't think any of their dozen Brainiacs put the Mavs above 3rd. In the Midwest Division!

AJ started last season just hoping his team would gel, and he would recover from his playoffs meltdown. They limped through incredible injury streaks, only having everyone available for about 8 games. Yet they made it to finals. I guess that means we've gelled.

None of the other teams that followed the Finals with a flop did what the Mavs did in the off season. Others either stood pat or changed core members. The Mavs kept the core and chose supporters with specific needed skills. Our 3rd point guard is a better ball handler, passer and shooter than the one he replaced. Our 2 new shooting guards are much better from outside, and better defenders as well. Our backup 3 is now a bigger, stronger 3 who can hit the 3 and has 3 rings. Our KVH replacement is not named KVH, another key improvement.

Its no guarentee of success, but I like the way it compares to the off seasons of the others.

Its time to play. Can't we just fast forward through September?

dude1394 · 09-03-2006, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Shot Rob

Until Dirk leads the Mavs to a title, he will face the same type of criticism that David Robinson used to endure until the first title in 1999. Critics constantly used to belittle Robinson for taking his squad to the playoffs but not being able to deliver.

I always hated this aspect of pundits and media. David Robinson meant so much to San Antonio. Still, we all remember how much this haunted David until Tim Duncan arrived. Together, they won two trophies.

The Mavs have all the ingredients to win a title. One thing that is intangible, however mentioned in the article--luck. There is always a little bit of luck in the run to the title--a big shot here or there, or a key play by a role player in waning seconds.

No doubt, miami was pretty lucky to get two very late questionable calls at decisive times. No two ways to look at it. Mavs were fortunate to get some calls as well.

EDIT: Isn't that pretty damn disgusting, the nba finals and there just are not great shots (like horry's or a putback) to clinch games. They were almost all decided at the FT line and questionable ones at that. Damn that's depressing.

Was there even a game winner in the series? Maybe Paytons last shot.

G-Man · 09-03-2006, 07:11 PM

Whoops. The Chart From the DMN to which my post referred was not posted. Look at this

NOW COMES THE HARD PART ... GETTING THERE AGAIN
Teams that have lost in the NBA Finals have had a difficult time getting back. How they tweaked their rosters and how they fared the next year:

Indiana 2000 Lost 4-2 to LA Lakers.
Lost:Traded Dale Davis, Rik Smits retired, Mark Jackson left in free agency, Chris Mullin retired.
Added:Jermaine O'Neal.
Result? Lost 3-1 to Philadelphia in the first round

Philadelphia 2001 Lost 4-1 to LA Lakers
Lost: Traded Tyrone Hill, George Lynch.
Added: Derrick Coleman, Matt Harpring.
Result? Lost 3-2 to Boston in the first round

New Jersey 2002 Lost 4-0 to LA Lakers
Lost: Traded Keith Van Horn, Todd MacCulloch.
Added: Dikembe Mutombo, Rodney Rogers.
Result? Lost 4-2 to San Antonio in NBA Finals

New Jersey 2003 Lost 4-2 to San Antonio
Lost: None of significance.
Added:None of significance.
Result? Lost 4-3 to Detroit in the second round

LA Lakers 2004 Lost 4-1 to Detroit
Lost: Traded Shaquille O'Neal; Karl Malone retired; Gary Payton and Derek Fisher left in free agency.
Added: Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Brian Grant, Chris Mihm and Chucky Atkins.
Result: Missed the playoffs

Detroit 2005 Lost 4-3 to San Antonio
Lost: coach Larry Brown.
Added: Dale Davis, coach Flip Saunders.
Result: Lost 4-2 to Miami in East finals

Mavericks 2006 Lost 4-2 to Miami
Lost: Traded Marquis Daniels, Darrell Armstrong. Lost Adrian Griffin, Keith Van Horn to free agency.
Added: Austin Croshere, Anthony Johnson, Greg Buckner, Devean George, Maurice Ager.
Result: To be determined

Of all those teams, only NJ 2002 went out and got the players they needed, and they made it back to the Finals. I think this bodes well for Dallas

dude1394 · 09-03-2006, 07:23 PM

G-man...that's impossible to read. I think I saw this article over at db.com formatted correctly. This site is pretty tough on formatting.

EDIT: It wasn't db.com, it was lmf.

Big Shot Rob · 09-03-2006, 08:48 PM

I hated the NBA Finals because fans were deprived of a great (or lucky) play that became the difference. The refs totally took the game away. Thus, instead of a great play (like Horry's in game 5 of the 2005 Finals) which was pivitol, we instead are left with the free throw exhibition.

What stood out to me was Dirk getting mugged underneath the basket so much I'm surprised the Miami Dade County Police Department wasn't dispatched to investigate aggravated assault underneath a basket.

The cliches say that great teams play through bad calls, injuries, hosile arenas, etc. Which is true, for the most part. Still--the extent of the bad calls were so pervasive, the entire championship series was tainted.

alby · 09-04-2006, 02:11 AM

we all agree and have been through this

mqywaaah · 09-04-2006, 11:11 AM

I will never stop believing!

Darth Ape · 09-04-2006, 03:57 PM

Mav fans have turned into an uglier verion of those Buffalo Sabre fans who can't stop complaining that Brett Hull's skate was over the line.

Disagree with a few calls all you want, but the Mavs gave us the biggest choke job in NBA finals history. They showed us how truly weak of character they really are, and there's nothing that Avery Johnson can do about it, because his mental breakdown was worse than any of his players.

I don't see how the Mavs can come back from such a humiliating display... and I don't see how Mav fans can be expected to beleive in a team that doesn't beleive in themselves.

Big Shot Rob · 09-04-2006, 06:12 PM

Darth Ape--these are such foolish comments--but for the most one-sided, fraudulent display of officiating in NBA history, the Mavs would have prevailed against the Heat.

Being a fool and an obvious troll is no way to go through life--grow up, boy.

nashtymavsfan13 · 09-04-2006, 07:44 PM

Darth Ape, you don't have a clue. Stupid troll.

u2sarajevo · 09-04-2006, 08:16 PM

Darth Ape is no troll. He's been around longer than the both of you combined.

edit: multiplied by 3.5 even.....

Dirkadirkastan · 09-04-2006, 08:23 PM

I thought Game 7 of the Spurs series showed enough about the character of Dirk and the Mavs to get rid of comments like Darth Ape. Oh well.

Still, I think the premise of the article at the top of the page is just silly. It seems to indicate that reaching the Finals is one CAUSE of difficulty for reaching it the next year. If I roll a six one time, that doesn't mean I'm any less likely to roll a six the next time. Besides, even if it only happens once every ten years, that's still not too bad, considering 28 teams don't get that far each year.

Dirkgreatness · 09-04-2006, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u2sarajevo

Darth Ape is no troll. He's been around longer than the both of you combined.

edit: multiplied by 3.5 even.....

"What is a troll? A troll is a usenet poster who posts inflammatory articles in the hopes of drawing attention to themselves and/or inciting flame wars."

Sounds like a troll to me.

nashtymavsfan13 · 09-04-2006, 11:18 PM

u2, is Darth Ape really madape? Because if he isn't he's gotta be a troll.

MavsX · 09-05-2006, 10:39 AM

i'm looking forward to the season starting

jthig32 · 09-05-2006, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

u2, is Darth Ape really madape? Because if he isn't he's gotta be a troll.

Yes, Darth Ape is quite obviously the original Ape.