05-14-2009, 01:40 PM
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#1
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Diamond Member
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Location: Basketball fan nirvana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavdog
abortion due to the "wrong" sex? not very good ethics.
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Why not? What is objectively wrong with this?
seriously....
I agree that there is something icky sticky eugenicky about it, but I'm seriously asking on what basis you find this to be 'not very good ethics'?
__________________
"It does not take a brain seargant to know the reason this team struggles." -- dmack24
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05-14-2009, 03:12 PM
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#2
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The Preacha
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Rock
Posts: 36,066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexamenos
Why not? What is objectively wrong with this?
seriously....
I agree that there is something icky sticky eugenicky about it, but I'm seriously asking on what basis you find this to be 'not very good ethics'?
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I completely agree...if the only deciding factor is the "choice" of the mother...who cares what reason guided her choice?
__________________
ok, we've talked about the problem of evil, and the extent of the atonement's application, but my real question to you is, "Could Jesus dunk?"
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05-14-2009, 03:14 PM
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#3
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Diamond Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sike
I completely agree...if the only deciding factor is the "choice" of the mother...who cares what reason guided her choice?
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...and if it's not a human that is being aborted, it's certainly not a human of a specific gender (or race) that's being aborted, correct?
__________________
"It does not take a brain seargant to know the reason this team struggles." -- dmack24
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05-14-2009, 03:26 PM
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#4
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The Preacha
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Rock
Posts: 36,066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexamenos
...and if it's not a human that is being aborted, it's certainly not a human of a specific gender (or race) that's being aborted, correct?
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seems sound. If abortion is only the ending of a potential human...or matter than is not human yet, thus not achieving personhood...then its only potentially male or potentially female or white or black, etc, etc. Certainly the growth's humanity would need to be established if the gender or race were to be considered. If not...its just a female thing or a male thing or a black thing, or a brown thing, or a white thing, etc. But not a person...not a human.
__________________
ok, we've talked about the problem of evil, and the extent of the atonement's application, but my real question to you is, "Could Jesus dunk?"
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05-14-2009, 03:47 PM
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#5
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sike
seems sound. If abortion is only the ending of a potential human...or matter than is not human yet, thus not achieving personhood...then its only potentially male or potentially female or white or black, etc, etc. Certainly the growth's humanity would need to be established if the gender or race were to be considered. If not...its just a female thing or a male thing or a black thing, or a brown thing, or a white thing, etc. But not a person...not a human.
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Exactly....if it's not wrong to kill something which is not a human life, how can it be wrong to kill something which is not a human life for the wrong reason?
Now.....I'm not suggesting we should force anyone to get an abortion, but if we subsidize abortion for black people and stupid people--do what we can to help them keep their birth rates down -- that will have the affect of...ummmm....well you know....
....not that there's anything wrong with that!!!
__________________
"It does not take a brain seargant to know the reason this team struggles." -- dmack24
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05-14-2009, 03:43 PM
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#6
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexamenos
Why not? What is objectively wrong with this?
seriously....
I agree that there is something icky sticky eugenicky about it, but I'm seriously asking on what basis you find this to be 'not very good ethics'?
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the decision to carry a fetus to term and deliver a baby should not be gender based. the sex doesn't make any difference, does it?
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05-14-2009, 03:48 PM
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#7
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Diamond Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavdog
the decision to carry a fetus to term and deliver a baby should not be gender based.
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what are the appropriate criteria?
__________________
"It does not take a brain seargant to know the reason this team struggles." -- dmack24
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05-14-2009, 03:55 PM
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#8
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The Preacha
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Rock
Posts: 36,066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexamenos
what are the appropriate criteria?
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mama still wants to party?
__________________
ok, we've talked about the problem of evil, and the extent of the atonement's application, but my real question to you is, "Could Jesus dunk?"
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05-14-2009, 04:06 PM
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#9
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexamenos
what are the appropriate criteria?
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seems the appropriateness is not a decision for others to make, it a decision of the mother.
your question was why basing the decision to terminate on the gender was unethical. if the mother was evaluating if she should carry to term, the gender of the baby shouldn't have any influence on that decision as it makes no difference. a male or a female baby are identical in all elements save for their gonads.
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05-14-2009, 04:09 PM
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#10
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The Preacha
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Rock
Posts: 36,066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavdog
seems the appropriateness is not a decision for others to make, it a decision of the mother.
your question was why basing the decision to terminate on the gender was unethical. if the mother was evaluating if she should carry to term, the gender of the baby shouldn't have any influence on that decision as it makes no difference. a male or a female baby are identical in all elements save for their gonads.
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you just painted with far too wide a brush there, md. You can't possibly tell what "makes no difference" to anyone other than yourself....and I don't think you have ovaries.
__________________
ok, we've talked about the problem of evil, and the extent of the atonement's application, but my real question to you is, "Could Jesus dunk?"
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05-14-2009, 04:21 PM
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#11
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sike
you just painted with far too wide a brush there, md. You can't possibly tell what "makes no difference" to anyone other than yourself....and I don't think you have ovaries.
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so your viewpoint is that gender does make a difference? an no I have no ovaries...but I have been complimented for my breasts.
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05-14-2009, 04:28 PM
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#12
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The Preacha
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Rock
Posts: 36,066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavdog
so your viewpoint is that gender does make a difference?
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From what I understand about abortion law, its really up to the individual woman to decide on what determining factor/s motivate her to abort her pregnancy....so issues like gender could be reasonable if it was deemed such by an individual woman. If she found out she was carrying a male and only wanted a female is no different from her deciding that she just didn't want a baby at this time at her life because it would be so inconvenient and slow down her pursuit of self advancement. That is at least how I understand the abortion law. But I am no expert.
Quote:
but I have been complimented for my breasts.
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this talk just got a little hotter.
__________________
ok, we've talked about the problem of evil, and the extent of the atonement's application, but my real question to you is, "Could Jesus dunk?"
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05-14-2009, 04:24 PM
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#13
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Basketball fan nirvana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavdog
seems the appropriateness is not a decision for others to make, it a decision of the mother.
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i'm still not clear on what you're saying...
You say that "the gender of the baby shouldn't have any influence on that decision as it makes no difference." But let's assume for the sake of argument that it does matter to the mother -- clearly it can matter to the mother whether the baby is going to be a girl, or mentally retarded, or kind of like flacolaco.
...if the mother decides she wants to abort the baby because it does not (or will not) have testicles, is that unethical in your view? If so, why?
__________________
"It does not take a brain seargant to know the reason this team struggles." -- dmack24
Last edited by alexamenos; 05-14-2009 at 04:25 PM.
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05-14-2009, 04:38 PM
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#14
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexamenos
i'm still not clear on what you're saying...
You say that "the gender of the baby shouldn't have any influence on that decision as it makes no difference." But let's assume for the sake of argument that it does matter to the mother -- clearly it can matter to the mother whether the baby is going to be a girl, or mentally retarded, or kind of like flacolaco.
...if the mother decides she wants to abort the baby because it does not (or will not) have testicles, is that unethical in your view? If so, why?
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if you feel compelled to compare mental incapacity to being a female...well, what can I say to bring logic to the discussion?
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05-14-2009, 04:53 PM
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#15
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Basketball fan nirvana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavdog
if you feel compelled to compare mental incapacity to being a female...well, what can I say to bring logic to the discussion?
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You have yet to make anything like a cogent argument as to why you think it is unethical to abort babies on the basis of gender.
Perhaps you're abandoning the discussion, not because I've reasonably grouped females and the mentally-challenged together as groups more subject to the scourge of eugenics, but instead because you are unable to address the question?
__________________
"It does not take a brain seargant to know the reason this team struggles." -- dmack24
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05-14-2009, 04:29 PM
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#16
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Just outside the Metroplex
Posts: 5,539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavdog
seems the appropriateness is not a decision for others to make, it a decision of the mother.
your question was why basing the decision to terminate on the gender was unethical. if the mother was evaluating if she should carry to term, the gender of the baby shouldn't have any influence on that decision as it makes no difference. a male or a female baby are identical in all elements save for their gonads.
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If killing a human is the decision of the mother, then you might as well love Hitler's views as well.
He decided that killing was the decision of the government and based much of his killing on religion.
It is the exact same way of thinking turned to a different direction. This is exactly why the German people allowed the holocaust -- just like you would allow it - it starts in the head with not seeing people as human. Once upon a time slaves weren't seen as human either.
Maybe you would rather the king decide, like maybe the president -- maybe the next one will want all blue eyed to be killed.
Stupid is as Stupid does, and giving the right to kill to a woman just because she is a woman is just as stupid as giving it to you or me.
Abortion isn't any different than killing millions of jews, or slaves. It is just whether or not someone in some government can justify themselves with the killing and make it law.
__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have". Gerald Ford
"Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Capt. Bob "Wolf" Johnson
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05-14-2009, 04:36 PM
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#17
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalmations202
If killing a human is the decision of the mother, then you might as well love Hitler's views as well.
He decided that killing was the decision of the government and based much of his killing on religion.
It is the exact same way of thinking turned to a different direction. This is exactly why the German people allowed the holocaust -- just like you would allow it - it starts in the head with not seeing people as human. Once upon a time slaves weren't seen as human either.
Maybe you would rather the king decide, like maybe the president -- maybe the next one will want all blue eyed to be killed.
Stupid is as Stupid does, and giving the right to kill to a woman just because she is a woman is just as stupid as giving it to you or me.
Abortion isn't any different than killing millions of jews, or slaves. It is just whether or not someone in some government can justify themselves with the killing and make it law.
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your viewpoint is based on a definition you have made of when life begins. your viewpoint is extreme, and (this shouldn't surprise you) there is no basis of support for your viewpoint other than your opinion.
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05-14-2009, 04:44 PM
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#18
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Just outside the Metroplex
Posts: 5,539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavdog
your viewpoint is based on a definition you have made of when life begins. your viewpoint is extreme, and (this shouldn't surprise you) there is no basis of support for your viewpoint other than your opinion.
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Really........no basis except my opinion.
Wow
So my definition of when life begins differs from who -- I mean what percentage of people in the world?
Isn't there anyone else on this planet that believes that life begins at conception - at least when there is a heartbeat.........
I guess I am all alone and my viewpoint is extreme -- but I'll keep it anyway.
Now as to the no basis -- you are kidding/lying to yourself if you don't see a basis for it -- whether you agree or not.
__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have". Gerald Ford
"Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Capt. Bob "Wolf" Johnson
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