2018 NBA Draft

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Also assuming we still have them, Trier now becomes a player to consider with one of our 2nd round picks.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

Also assuming we still have them, Trier now becomes a player to consider with one of our 2nd round picks.

I figured he was someone we were already considering with our second rounder... I wonder if he goes undrafted at this point. Either way, I think Trier's skillset would be a good fit for the Mavs (assuming his success hasn't been dependent on the juice).

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I figured he was someone we were already considering with our second rounder... I wonder if he goes undrafted at this point. Either way, I think Trier's skillset would be a good fit for the Mavs (assuming his success hasn't been dependent on the juice).

Yeah, I agree.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Man, ORL just dropped 41 on the Knicks in the 1st qtr. NYK playing like they won't win another game all year Lol

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

Man, ORL just dropped 41 on the Knicks in the 1st qtr. NYK playing like they won't win another game all year Lol

Knicks won.

[tap2390]

Porter Jr. cleared for full contact but still unclear if he’ll play this season.

[mac222b]

Bulls lost by 1 to Philly ugh

[tap2390]

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...-investigation



Holy fucking shit....

Arizona coach Sean Miller caught on tape discussing six figure payment to ensure Ayton signed with Arizona

[hayth.james.g]

Originally Posted by tap2390

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...-investigation



Holy fucking shit....

Arizona coach Sean Miller caught on tape discussing six figure payment to ensure Ayton signed with Arizona

Non issue for Ayton or any other prospects IMO. Everyone knows that these guys should be allowed to either A. Go straight to the NBA or B. get paid in College. Consider the background of many of these kids...

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by tap2390

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...-investigation



Holy fucking shit....

Arizona coach Sean Miller caught on tape discussing six figure payment to ensure Ayton signed with Arizona

So glad our tax dollars are going to wiretapping college coaches. I mean, paying players when the NCAA generates ridiculous revenues is really the first line of problems this country faces. Ugh...

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

Non issue for Ayton or any other prospects IMO. Everyone knows that these guys should be allowed to either A. Go straight to the NBA or B. get paid in College. Consider the background of many of these kids...

I agree it's a long-term non issue. However, we could be looking at a Big Dance without several top prospects participating. Evaluation opportunities could be lost.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

We have a possible Win alert for the Suns!!

PHX 93 POR 78 w/ 7:26 left to go in the 4th



Edit: God Damnit!!! That is all.

[Underdog]

Choke... PHX has years of tanking experience, they make it look easy.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Choke... PHX has years of tanking experience, they make it look easy.

Lol! They sure did tonight.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

I'm watching the end of this Arizona/Oregon game. Holy cow! Bill Walton is on some serious narcotics. I know that's not breaking news, but wow oh wow this guy is taking some powerful stuff!!

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Bamba missed the 2nd half of today's game vs Ok State with a toe injury. That's 3 times so far this season he's been sidelined during games with minor injuries. Kid needs to put some muscle on that frame & toughen up a bit. If he's getting knocked out of NCAA games with this minor stuff, what happens when he moves to the NBA???

[tap2390]

Ayton with 28/18/ 4 blocks / 1 TO vs Oregon. He’s easily the number one pick. They barely even run plays for him.

And yeah Walton is stoned out of his mind arguing with his co-announcer over minute details lol.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Lol yeah the back & forth between Walton & his play-by-play guy is more entertaining than the game a lot of the time.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

I agree Ayton is starting to really separate himself. Doncic's ceiling is still very, very high, like top 25 player of all time high, BUT Ayton's ceiling is really high too, like David Robinson 2.0 high.

The difference is starting to become evident that there are no scenarios where a healthy DeAndre Ayton ever fails in the NBA. Doncic's floor is a less impressive Hedo Turkoglu.

I've had Doncic 1 and Ayton 1A, but I'm going to have to flip that.

Fingers crossed. I hope we really get to see what Ayton can do the rest of the way with a bigger share of the offensive responsibilities now that Trier has been sidelined. I feel like with the coach not there & Trier suspended that even if Ayton retains his eligibility, Arizona won't go far in either the Pac 12 or March Madness. I feel like one downside to Ayton is he's not really selfish enough to take over games when they need him to.

By the way, this Friday's episode of Draft Class by the Ringer focused mostly on Ayton. Here's a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa-JtOW0iPk

[Underdog]

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I projected the Mavs for 21 wins at this point a few weeks ago, so they've done an excellent job losing games. The scary thing is the rest of the league is tanking so hard right now. Lets you know a lot of scouting departments think a lot of this year's prospects, or at least they think a lot of DeAndre Ayton. Lol...

Mavs have to keep losing. They mess up and win a game here or there that they shouldn't & we could fall hard.

The good news is Monday features CHI vs BKN, Wednesday gives us PHX vs MEM (a virtual lock W for PHX, Memphis' tank effort is STRONG), and Thursday BKN vs SAC. Plus, we have a chance to saddle Chicago with a win on Friday. @ Chicago & Bobby Portis looks like a player. The Bulls are actually super talented, and I think even if Carlisle wants to try & play his 8 "best" players, we're not favored in that game, anyways.

We could see CHI or BKN with 2 wins this week, definitely a key W for PHX, or even better a key W for Memphis on Wed, and I don't like our chances for a Win all week. Not vs the playoff bound Pacers on Monday... eh maybe vs OKC on Wed since they tend to play down to their competition, but I don't like us vs CHI on Friday.

And by the time we play again, next Sunday, MEM is @ ORL and PHX is @ ATL, which is a chance for more separation

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Man, looking at our remaining schedule... IF we can go 1-5 over our next 6 games AND lose both to CHI & MEM, then we're going to be in beautiful shape for our tank. The tough part will be losing to MEM, especially if Carlisle is going to run out heavy minutes for Barnes, Barea, Dirk and Wes.

Going 1-5 could be more challenging if Noel comes back, but we face IND, NO, and DEN during that 6 game stretch, all of whom are in tight playoff races. I don't see those teams taking us lightly. OKC is a different story. That might be the game we win.

If we could go 1-5, then we're only at 19 wins with just 16 games left to go. I'd have us at 22 or 23 wins at the end of the season. We'd be in prime position for worst record in the league at that point.

I mean, there's so many games of those remaining 16 that you just can't see the Mavs winning.

The very first vs HOU on the 2nd night of a back-to-back.

@ TOR, and then hopefully a loss @ BKN the very next night on the 2nd night of a back-to-back.

@ LAL on the 2nd night of a back-to-back

vs MIN with them fighting for playoff seeding late in the season

@ CLE with the way the Cavs have played since all of their trades, I don't see a W there.

vs POR with them fighting for playoff seeding and then @ ORL the next night on the 2nd night of a back-to-back, hopefully we would saddle ORL with a W in that one.

There just aren't very many games where you see the Mavs having a chance. Of course, I haven't looked at all of the opponents to see when they're on the 2nd night of a back-to-back, but this is a big 6 game stretch for the Mavs. 1-5 or 0-6 is money in the bank!!


Edit: Damn, Memphis is on the 2nd night of a back-to-back when we play them. That loss just got 3x harder. BKN is on a back-to-back too, and so is ORL... Sheesh... That MEM game on March 10th is freaking HUGE. I think their tank efforts have been the strongest so far this season. If the Mavs have half a brain, they'll pull out all the stops for that one.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

60 Losses is the new Battle Cry!!

[Magnum_3_Ball]

How many players out of this year's draft would you trade DSJ for?

I think for me the no doubt list is Ayton, JJJ, and Doncic. The I probably would list is... actually there's no one in that list. The maybe list is Bamba, Trae Young & Mikal Bridges, but I think the only one I would pull the trigger on from that group is Young. Lonnie Walker would be another I would consider, but then I feel like you're just drafting a guy like DSJ a year ago & taking on more risk.

[hayth.james.g]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

How many players out of this year's draft would you trade DSJ for?

I think for me the no doubt list is Ayton, JJJ, and Doncic. The I probably would list is... actually there's no one in that list. The maybe list is Bamba, Trae Young & Mikal Bridges, but I think the only one I would pull the trigger on from that group is Young. Lonnie Walker would be another I would consider, but then I feel like you're just drafting a guy like DSJ a year ago & taking on more risk.

The beautiful thing is if we manage to finish strong (lose alot), we can get Ayton, Doncic, Bagley, or JJJ to compliment DSJ.

Watched JJJ today... Still not seeing the argument for him at 1 or 2. Top 5-6 I get, but people are acting like he is THE guy following Doncic or Ayton.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

Watched JJJ today... Still not seeing the argument for him at 1 or 2. Top 5-6 I get, but people are acting like he is THE guy following Doncic or Ayton.

Who's your third choice then? Bagley, who doesn't play defense and can't shoot FTs? Porter, whose health we're still not sure about? Young, who doesn't fit this roster? Bamba, who's rawer than JJJ and lacks offense?

I'd love to hear an argument for 3-4 players you'd rank above Jackson... Especially Bagley, who I'm not seeing the same way you're not seeing JJJ.

[tap2390]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Who's your third choice then? Bagley, who doesn't play defense and can't shoot FTs? Porter, whose health we're still not sure about? Young, who doesn't fit this roster? Bamba, who's rawer than JJJ and lacks offense?

I'd love to hear an argument for 3-4 players you'd rank above Jackson... Especially Bagley, who I'm not seeing the same way you're not seeing JJJ.

I think there are some really good arguments for Bagley over JJJ...

1) JJJ has an incredibly low usage rate and comes off the bench. It's not fair to expect him to maintain his efficiency in the NBA.

2) JJJ doesn't stay on the floor due to foul trouble... his game log is full of 4 or 5 fouls in 15-20 minutes

3) Bagley consistently performs versus tough teams... 30/14 vs. UVA... 32/21 vs. Florida St.... 30/15 vs. Florida.... 34/15 vs. Texas...

Bagley has his flaws, but there's a reason he's been considered the best player in his class for years. He's number 4 on my board.


My Board: 1) Ayton - 2) Doncic - 3) Porter Jr. (if healthy) - 4) Bagley - 5) JJJ

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by tap2390

I think there are some really good arguments for Bagley over JJJ...

1) JJJ has an incredibly low usage rate and comes off the bench. It's not fair to expect him to maintain his efficiency in the NBA.

2) JJJ doesn't stay on the floor due to foul trouble... his game log is full of 4 or 5 fouls in 15-20 minutes

3) Bagley consistently performs versus tough teams... 30/14 vs. UVA... 32/21 vs. Florida St.... 30/15 vs. Florida.... 34/15 vs. Texas...

Bagley has his flaws, but there's a reason he's been considered the best player in his class for years. He's number 4 on my board.


My Board: 1) Ayton - 2) Doncic - 3) Porter Jr. (if healthy) - 4) Bagley - 5) JJJ

Here's the thing with Bagley & those #s...


That 30 & 14 he put up vs Virginia happened primarily vs guys 6-7 & one 6-10 White stiff who managed 3 rebs in 31 min & has a career avg of essentially 3 pts & 4 rebs, oh and they had a 6-9 soph come in & play 10 min in that game too. Nothing like the size & physicality Bagley will see in the NBA.

vs Florida St, Bagley's 32 & 21 came while he faced one guy over 6-9 (most of the Seminoles are 6-8 & under), and that was a 7 foot Freshman who managed 2 rebs in 13 min.

vs Florida, Bagley's 30 & 15 was compiled vs one guy over 6-9, a 6-11 stiff from Australia, who posted 0 rebs & 3 fouls in 7 min. In fact, only 2 of the 8 other Gators to see the floor were over 6-6, and they only played 25 min (a 6-9 Junior) & 16 min (a 6-8 Soph) respectively.

vs Texas, Bagley's 34 & 15, I watched these highlights on FrankieVision, and yes it's the first time he did anything in one of these games you've listed vs a big with an NBA future, in Mo Bamba, but this was early in the season & Bamba played very poorly defensively. Actually it's a good example of why I'm not high on Mo Bamba. He gets pushed around, plays out of position, falls asleep on the floor & misses assignments, and the last thing in the world Mo Bamba is, is a bruiser, somebody that's going to drop his ass, plant it into an opponent & BOX OUT. Bamba stands upright like a statue & tries to use his insane reach on every rebound. To Bagley's credit, he abused Bamba in this game badly. But, I'd like to see Bagley do it vs Ayton or a credible NBA body that bangs in the low post for rebounds. That's not Mo Bamba.


The whole Porter Jr, if healthy thing. He's been cleared & Mizzou has 2 games left in the regular season. He didn't play vs Kentucky yesterday. There's no word on him playing in their next game. Potentially he only has 3 games left to play in Mizzou's season. So, when is the "IF" going to be come a reality? We can't look at him as IF healthy imo. Like what if he shows up for Mizzou's March Madness game, and he doesn't play well. Tailor made excuse for him, well it was his first game, etc etc... I just don't see it with Porter Jr. He's already missed the college season. The development opportunity is out the window & I don't think he'll ever be healthy imo.


Edit: More of Bagley's game logs

His 25 & 10 in his first game vs Elon, did not face a single opponent over 6-8, which makes his 0 blocks in 29 minutes look worse

vs Michigan St, he gets poked in the right eye by his own teammate w/ 10 min to go in the 1st half & sits the rest of the game. Smh. Watching the replay, it looked like he should of missed a few minutes & that's it. 10 min 4 pts 6 rebs vs real competition

24 & 8 vs Furman, no opponents over 6-8. One 6-8 starter, a Junior who played 24 min, one 6-8 reserve, a Soph who played 15 min, a 6-7 reserve, a Freshman who played 19 min, and a 6-7 reserve, a Senior who played 9 min, everyone else on the roster is 6-5 & under. Bagley w/ 1 block in 29 minutes.

18 & 15 vs Portland St, came vs mostly guys 6-8 & under, outside of a 7-1 Senior who played 9 min & a 6-10 Sophomore who played 2 min.

23 & 10 vs Indiana, came vs all guys 6-8 & under, excepts for a 6-10 Sophomore who played 21 min and had 16 & 5... Bagley by the way 0 blocks in 38 minutes vs all undersized opponents

19 & 12 vs South Dakota, one guy, a 6-10 Junior, the other forward for S Dakota is 6-6, the two forwards that came off the bench, 6-7 & 6-8. One reserve forward 6-9 who played 3 minutes. Essentially, one 6-10 guy & all 6-8 & under opponents.

21 & 11 vs St Francis (PA), again one guy who is 6-10 (Sophomore) played 24 min, a 6-9 (Freshman) reserve played 14 min, and then everyone outside of a 6-8 Senior who played 6 min was 6-5 or under. Bagley with 0 blocks in 26 min.

15 & 12 vs Boston College, Bagley played 40 minutes, he faced one opponent who was 6-11, a Soph who played 28 min, and one one opponent who was 6-10, a Soph who played 18 min, the rest of BC's squad that day: a 6-8 Fresh who played 37 min, a 6-6 Junior who played 38 min, a 6-5 Junior who played 40 min, a 6-1 Soph who played 36 min, and a 6-7 Freshman who played 3 min. Bagley 1 block in 40 min vs this undersized group.

18 & 7 vs Evansville, faced no opponent over 6-9.

31 & 10 vs NC State, to my knowledge the first time he did something (excluding vs Texas) vs an opponent with an opposing big projected for the NBA in NC State's 7-0 Sophomore Center Omer Yurtseven. Have to give credit here. 11/14 FGs 10 rebs 4 blks in 38 min, and Yurtseven played 29 min. Although, the next tallest Wolfpack player is 6-8.

16 & 15 vs Pitt, tallest opponent a 6-10 Freshman who played 15 min, a 6-9 Soph who played 23 min, a 6-9 Freshman who played 6 min, and a 6-7 Freshman who played 8 min, everyone else for Pitt was 6-6 or under. Bagley w/ 0 blocks vs this group in 29 min.

30 & 11 vs Wake Forest, no one is talking about them as future NBA prospects, but Bagley did post this vs a 7-1 Junior who played 17 min, and a 7-0 Freshman who played 17 min. Everyone else on Wake is 6-8 or under, but legitimate size in this game.

13 & 12 vs Miami, Hurricanes 6-11 Sophomore Dewan Huell is someone I have seen projected in the 2nd round of this year's draft or early in next year's mocks. He posted 18 & 13 in 32 min in this game btw, also Miami had a 6-10 Junior play 12 min in this game. The rest of the Hurricanes in this game are 6-7 or under. Bagley with 0 blocks in 37 min.

20 & 7 vs Pitt, Bagley plays the same 29 min as he did in the first matchup, but this time the 6-10 Freshman stats & plays 26 min and then the 6-9 Sophomore plays 26 min, the 6-9 Freshman plays 4 min, and the 6-7 Freshman plays 6 min. Bagley with less than half the boards facing more height.

16 & 11 vs Wake Forest, this time the 7-1, 280 lb Junior plays 30 min & goes 9 for 9 from the floor while posting 18 & 12 (with 6 offensive rebs) and Bagley recording 0 blocks in 30 min, and the 7-0, 215 lb Freshman plays 25 min. Bagley's scoring nearly cut in half when Wake's bigs increase their playing time.

12 & 8 vs Notre Dame, tallest opponent a 6-10 Senior who played 27 min, a 6-9 Soph who played 25 min, a 6-8 Junior who played 19 min, and everyone else on the roster 6-7 or under. Wendell Carter Jr only played 26 min in this game, only taking 8 FGA & recording only 7 rebs. Bagley played 34 min and shot just 4/14 FGs vs an undersized team with no future NBA prospects.

19 & 7 vs St Johns, tallest opponent a 6-11 205 lb Junior who played 37 min, a 6-9 Senior who played 2 min, and everyone else for St John's is 6-7 & under. Bagley with 0 blocks in 34 min.

15 & 16 vs North Carolina in 39 min, tallest opponent a 6-11 240 lb Freshman who played 4 min, a 6-9 215 lb Freshman who played 12 min, and everyone else for UNC is 6-8 & under. People talk about 6-8 Junior Luke Maye as a potential NBA draft pick, but I don't think he can even carry Tyler Hansbrough's jock strap, so that isn't saying much.

[sefant77]

I doubt any of the Top-8 tank teams is going to win more than five games until the end of the season (ok, maybe the Nets since they are actually trying)

Of course everyone is going to pretend that tanking doesnt exist

[tap2390]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

Here's the thing with Bagley & those #s...


That 30 & 14 he put up vs Virginia happened primarily vs guys 6-7 & one 6-10 White stiff who managed 3 rebs in 31 min & has a career avg of essentially 3 pts & 4 rebs, oh and they had a 6-9 soph come in & play 10 min in that game too. Nothing like the size & physicality Bagley will see in the NBA.

vs Florida St, Bagley's 32 & 21 came while he faced one guy over 6-9 (most of the Seminoles are 6-8 & under), and that was a 7 foot Freshman who managed 2 rebs in 13 min.

vs Florida, Bagley's 30 & 15 was compiled vs one guy over 6-9, a 6-11 stiff from Australia, who posted 0 rebs & 3 fouls in 7 min. In fact, only 2 of the 8 other Gators to see the floor were over 6-6, and they only played 25 min (a 6-9 Junior) & 16 min (a 6-8 Soph) respectively.

vs Texas, Bagley's 34 & 15, I watched these highlights on FrankieVision, and yes it's the first time he did anything in one of these games you've listed vs a big with an NBA future, in Mo Bamba, but this was early in the season & Bamba played very poorly defensively. Actually it's a good example of why I'm not high on Mo Bamba. He gets pushed around, plays out of position, falls asleep on the floor & misses assignments, and the last thing in the world Mo Bamba is, is a bruiser, somebody that's going to drop his ass, plant it into an opponent & BOX OUT. Bamba stands upright like a statue & tries to use his insane reach on every rebound. To Bagley's credit, he abused Bamba in this game badly. But, I'd like to see Bagley do it vs Ayton or a credible NBA body that bangs in the low post for rebounds. That's not Mo Bamba.


The whole Porter Jr, if healthy thing. He's been cleared & Mizzou has 2 games left in the regular season. He didn't play vs Kentucky yesterday. There's no word on him playing in their next game. Potentially he only has 3 games left to play in Mizzou's season. So, when is the "IF" going to be come a reality? We can't look at him as IF healthy imo. Like what if he shows up for Mizzou's March Madness game, and he doesn't play well. Tailor made excuse for him, well it was his first game, etc etc... I just don't see it with Porter Jr. He's already missed the college season. The development opportunity is out the window & I don't think he'll ever be healthy imo.

Ehh.

Nitpicking after the fact like this is ridiculous IMO. Bagley has been one of the (if not THE) most consistent player in college basketball. He’s doing it as the number one option against other elite squads. He has legitimate questions about his defense, shooting, and position, but let’s not take away from what he’s doing to justify praise for another prospect. If we draft JJJ over Bagley it will certainly be due to long-term potential and not production.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by tap2390

Ehh.

Nitpicking after the fact like this is ridiculous IMO. Bagley has been one of the (if not THE) most consistent player in college basketball. He’s doing it as the number one option against other elite squads. He has legitimate questions about his defense, shooting, and position, but let’s not take away from what he’s doing to justify praise for another prospect. If we draft JJJ over Bagley it will certainly be due to long-term potential and not production.

I just updated my post... I went through all of Bagley's game logs. Look at how many times he's putting up #s vs opponents who only have 1 player 6-9 or 6-10 that plays 20 min or less vs him & the rest of the team is 6-8 or under.

I don't understand how that is an "elite" squad.

[tap2390]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

I just updated my post... I went through all of Bagley's game logs. Look at how many times he's putting up #s vs opponents who only have 1 player 6-9 or 6-10 that plays 20 min or less vs him & the rest of the team is 6-8 or under.

I don't understand how that is an "elite" squad.

If your argument is “well he’s playing against small college kids” it’s a very poor one. Every NBA prospect in the NCAA is going to outmatch the vast majority of players he faces. To nitpick about who was defending him is, once again, ridiculous. Bailey has dominated top-25 teams including #2 UVA who is widely considered the best defensive squad in D1.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by tap2390

If your argument is “well he’s playing against small college kids” it’s a very poor one. Every NBA prospect in the NCAA is going to outmatch the vast majority of players he faces. To nitpick about who was defending him is, once again, ridiculous. Bailey has dominated top-25 teams including #2 UVA who is widely considered the best defensive squad in D1.

It's not my argument. Scouts say Bagley abuses players undersized & less athletic than he is, but struggles against players bigger & stronger than he is.

Look at his first game vs Wake Forest when 7-1, 280 lb Junior Doral Moore plays just 17 min, and then look at how Bagley's scoring is impacted when Moore & fellow 7 footer Olivier Sarr's playing time goes up in the rematch. Is it a coincidence that Moore goes 9 for 9 from the field vs Bagley?

As I originally said, his production in the Virginia game basically a game against one White 6-10 stiff & a bunch of guys 6-7 & under. 6-7!!! I'm suppose to be blown away that he can get rebounds vs guys 6-7 and one White stiff who's 6-10. How does that matter when he steps on the court next year vs Detroit & he's trying to pull down rebounds vs Blake Griffin & Andre Drummond & every back up the Pistons have is more talented, with more size & more athleticism than anyone on Virginia's roster since 1983 & Ralph Sampson?

Like seriously, outside of the Texas & NC State game, which game can you really point to & say that shows what Bagley can do at the next level?


Edit: And isn't it at least a little troubling all of those games vs guys who primarily are 6-8 & under and Bagley plays 30-40 min and registers 0 blocks? How does that happen for a guy whose suppose to be an interior presence?

[DevinHarriswillstart]

JJJ definitely needs to improve his rebounding, but that's really the only flaw I can see right now. Still, Mavs need rebounding like a desert needs water, so it's certainly not a non-issue. But I think he can easily improve that in the right situation...especially if he is moved to center under Rick.

[hayth.james.g]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

It's not my argument. Scouts say Bagley abuses players undersized & less athletic than he is, but struggles against players bigger & stronger than he is.

Look at his first game vs Wake Forest when 7-1, 280 lb Junior Doral Moore plays just 17 min, and then look at how Bagley's scoring is impacted when Moore & fellow 7 footer Olivier Sarr's playing time goes up in the rematch. Is it a coincidence that Moore goes 9 for 9 from the field vs Bagley?

As I originally said, his production in the Virginia game basically a game against one White 6-10 stiff & a bunch of guys 6-7 & under. 6-7!!! I'm suppose to be blown away that he can get rebounds vs guys 6-7 and one White stiff who's 6-10. How does that matter when he steps on the court next year vs Detroit & he's trying to pull down rebounds vs Blake Griffin & Andre Drummond & every back up the Pistons have is more talented, with more size & more athleticism than anyone on Virginia's roster since 1983 & Ralph Sampson?

Like seriously, outside of the Texas & NC State game, which game can you really point to & say that shows what Bagley can do at the next level?


Edit: And isn't it at least a little troubling all of those games vs guys who primarily are 6-8 & under and Bagley plays 30-40 min and registers 0 blocks? How does that happen for a guy whose suppose to be an interior presence?

Your arguing your point with some real vigor... I can dig it

Reading through your posts, it seems like you are reaching quite often to prove your own bias correct. As previously stated, we could do this to any prospect which is why they are prospects. Its all a guessing game.

The question is does he have the skill set to translate to the NBA and potential + work ethic to continue to improve. Keep in mind that for many of these guys you can simply go back to their senior year at HS and summer ball to see how they faired against stacked competition. This was my biggest selling point to DSJ last year, and Porter Jr. this year. Bagley has always performed very well in these scenarios.

Again, I'm not saying I do not like JJJ. I am just struggling with putting him into the tier 1 (top 3) in this draft. Especially after watching today's game from start to finish.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

JJJ has his own issues. The foul trouble concerns me, and I mentioned this awhile back, I wonder if the Michigan State coaching staff is even making that a point of emphasis with him. If so, then that bothers me quite a bit. The hope would be that he's young & just grows out of it. I mean, on the brightside, scouts clearly love his defensive ability, so it's not him fouling out of not being able to stay with his man. It's fouling from being too aggressive.

I'm not really worried about his usage rate. I mean, I am a little bit because he hasn't proven that he can do it. I also think he may be more in line for a Draymond Green like "superstar" player as a guy who can do a lot of things well & provide match up problems, while defending every position on the floor & not a "true" superstar as people traditionally think of a superstar.

At the same time, the Spartans run plays for Nick Ward. JJJ is being asked to play a role for the Spartans. I think if he were featured more in their offense, then he could potentially rise to the occasion. I think holding that against him could be a big mistake. Just like NFL teams held it against Tom Brady that the Wolverines were giving playing time to Drew Henson & questioning whether Brady was even that good if his own coaching staff had questions about him i.e. I don't think just becaue JJJ doesn't put up #s over 30 min per game doesn't mean he can't do it.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

Your arguing your point with some real vigor... I can dig it

Reading through your posts, it seems like you are reaching quite often to prove your own bias correct. As previously stated, we could do this to any prospect which is why they are prospects. Its all a guessing game.

The question is does he have the skill set to translate to the NBA and potential + work ethic to continue to improve. Keep in mind that for many of these guys you can simply go back to their senior year at HS and summer ball to see how they faired against stacked competition. This was my biggest selling point to DSJ last year, and Porter Jr. this year. Bagley has always performed very well in these scenarios.

Again, I'm not saying I do not like JJJ. I am just struggling with putting him into the tier 1 (top 3) in this draft. Especially after watching today's game from start to finish.

You're right. There's not a ton of 7 foot bigs in the NCAA for Bagley, or any other prospect, to prove his wares against. However, he has shown signs of being a poor defender vs shorter, less athletic bigs & that is concerning. The notion of Bagley III being a one-way player should concern us all. If he were a more adept defender, then I'd probably be willing to cut him more slack.

As I wrote in a Youtube comment a while back, I think most fans don't pay attention to defense, they just look at typical box score stats points & rebounds, and they think Bagley is too good not to go in the top 3 of this draft. The problem with that idea is you're not drafting the best college basketball player because Bagley's stats at Duke mean nothing the moment he steps on an NBA court for the first time. What you are drafting is the best NBA prospect, and the box score from college does not always show, in fact can often times betray, the real ability of a player.

I'm much more concerned when I hear things like "has trouble defending the Pick n Roll", "takes plays off", or "has trouble following his defensive assignments" those are all things that Carlisle will sit a rookie for. If it's Julius Randle and we're 3/4 years into an NBA career & still have a reputation as a very poor defender, now we have a problem that impacts the chances of a championship contender. That's all stuff I weigh much heavier than 30 & 15 vs a team with an elite defensive system but a bunch of 6-7 guys enforcing it.

[tap2390]

Originally Posted by tap2390

My favorite sleepers:


1) Gary Trent Jr. -- Don't know if it's fair to call him a sleeper because he will likely go in the lottery. I really want him on the Mavs. He's a freshman with an NBA pedigree shooting 46% from three on 6.2 attempts. He needs to work on ball-handling and defense, but he moves so well off the ball and coming off screens.

2) Tony Carr -- A point (really combo guard) with size who can switch defensively 1-3. Has a variety of scoring moves in the midrange and knows how to get to his spot. Needs to tighten up his handle. Has made a tremendous leap from his freshman year for an over-performing Penn State squad. You wonder if his jumper translates to next level because he's not great about setting his feet.

3) Keita Bates-Diop -- Reminds me a LOT of Josh Howard. You worry about his 'tweener build, but he has displayed vastly improved handles. He needs to show he can continue to improve his jumper so defenders can't just lag off him at the next level.

Need to add Alize Johnson to this list. Late bloomer. Athletic, wiry, feisty 6’9” small forward with underrated handles and vision. Fantastic rebounder and good defender. Offensively his game reminds me of Draymond. He plays with good pace and makes the right choices. We may need to package our second rounders to move up to get him.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Also to be clear, I think everyone I've seen post here has it like this.

Some form of Ayton/Doncic>>>>>>>JJJ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everyone else.

I know some don't have Doncic in that top, top tier, and some don't have JJJ in their top 5 at all. But I don't think anyone here is saying JJJ is on par with Ayton or Doncic. I do think JJJ has a chance to be a singular player. I doubt he's ever 20 & 10 in the NBA & he's not the passer that Draymond Green is, but I do think he has the "unicorn" like abilities on the defensive end. He's a guy who I can see guarding every position on the floor, which really Draymond is the only current player in the league who can make that claim & I think he has the ceiling of being able to do it a higher level than Draymond does it, particularly the agility to stay with smaller guards & the ability to block & alter far more shots than Draymond does.

A lot of folks in here are excited about Bamba being potentially Gobert 2.0. Well, my excitement for JJJ is he's younger than Bamba, is already proven to be tougher imo with a more developed body, and he could be Gobert 2.0 also, only with the ability to come out on the perimeter & defend small guards on the PnR when needed.

Defensively, JJJ's ceiling is higher than anyone else in this draft & that's the excitement for him. I don't know about anyone else, but I think his upside offensively falls short of a superstar, maybe even an All Star, and I could see him falling into a Robert Covington role on offense; particularly, if he goes to a team where they have ball-dominant players & he becomes the 3rd or 4th option. In fact, he's probably unlikely to work himself into a role on a NBA team where he's going to be the 2nd option. But, the defensive potential is special.

[Underdog]

I like how you guys are debating players like it matters... The Mavs are going to finish #4, but the lottery balls will give us #1 overall and we'll take DeAndre Ayton because I've been making blood sacrifices to the Basketball Gods. You're welcome. #MFFL