2018 NBA Draft - Page 34 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

DevinHarriswillstart · 05-04-2018, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

Seems like Doncic is falling off hard here. I guess it makes sense from a fit perspective. I personally love his game and what he will bring to the NBA.

This draft doesn't really have a Lebron/Dirk superstar IMO. All of the top players fall just a half step below that. And all of them seem to have a similar ceiling from the tons of videos, scouting reports, games watched, etc. etc.

If the Mavs picked Doncic, then I'd support it. No way you don't know who is who in this lottery. Scouting would have done their homework.

What you really need to watch out for is who jumps up like Mitchell did last draft. That is what will truly make this draft intriguing.

Underdog · 05-05-2018, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

Seems like Doncic is falling off hard here. I guess it makes sense from a fit perspective. I personally love his game and what he will bring to the NBA.

I've never been as high on Doncic as everyone else... These were my rankings a month ago:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Ayton
Porter
Jackson
Bridges
Bagley
Doncic
Bamba

Bamba recently shot up my list after seeing his much-improved jumper, but the problem with Doncic has always been his fit next to Dennis. He'll be a fine player, but the Mavs have better options when it comes to core-building. Like I said before, if they draft Doncic then they should look to trade Dennis, otherwise they're going to blow their highest draft picks in years on guys with similar skillsets (and I don't see them picking this high again any time soon).

DevinHarriswillstart · 05-05-2018, 09:06 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puaRBSDDz8c&t=28s

So this game was Bamba's masterpiece last season and the reason his ceiling is so high. He blocks Azubuike three times in his face. 280 pound Azubuike I might add.

OK so Udoka isn't the greatest offensive center of all time, but Kansas was runner up in the championship game, so this wasn't like Bamba was doing this against scrubs.

Underdog · 05-05-2018, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puaRBSDDz8c&t=28s

So this game was Bamba's masterpiece last season and the reason his ceiling is so high. He blocks Azubuike three times in his face. 280 pound Azubuike I might add.

OK so Udoka isn't the greatest offensive center of all time, but Kansas was runner up in the championship game, so this wasn't like Bamba was doing this against scrubs.

I like that he doesn't put the ball on the floor around the hoop -- he just uses his length to work around guys.

Bryan_Wilson · 05-05-2018, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I've never been as high on Doncic as everyone else... These were my rankings a month ago:

Bamba recently shot up my list after seeing his much-improved jumper, but the problem with Doncic has always been his fit next to Dennis. He'll be a fine player, but the Mavs have better options when it comes to core-building. Like I said before, if they draft Doncic then they should look to trade Dennis, otherwise they're going to blow their highest draft picks in years on guys with similar skillsets (and I don't see them picking this high again any time soon).

I'm curious why people think Doncic and DSJ would be such a terrible fit we would have to trade DSJ? I understand the concern about his possibly capped upside from athleticism, but I always counter with his elite bbiq which I believe more than off sets any concern but it's just my opinion nothing to base it on really. I think today's nba requires you to have more than one ball handler, and not just a ball handler but they better both be one of the best players on the team. The teams that have struggled the most seem to be the ones who only had one guy on the floor who can create plays and a defense can be implemented to at least force them into bad sets. If Harden and CP3 can co-exist and the trio of playmakers on the GSW's can all co-exist, and teams like the Raptors where the best player basically creates his own shot and nothing else. Then when Lowry is off the floor, and he isn't my ideal pg but when he's gone Derozan isn't creating for others, and you have a true backup pg caliber player creating for others. Offenses become stale and leads slip. A better example might be the pacers. When Oladipo was off the floor how hard was it to score? When he was on the floor all it took was sending a high double to force it out of his hands and the Pacers looked lost.

It might be recency bias and super team effect but Idk why we would have to trade DSJ if we drafted Doncic. Even if Doncic isn't drafted I can promise everyone here DSJ will play off ball next year just like this year and I'd rather that player with the ball be Doncic or in the future a starting caliber player not simply a backup pg and not a 2nd 6'0 pg at that. The only requirement to make it work is that both players become great at playing off the ball with cuts and 3pt ability. And I see no reason both shouldn't be fantastic at that?

hayth.james.g · 05-05-2018, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

I'm curious why people think Doncic and DSJ would be such a terrible fit we would have to trade DSJ? I understand the concern about his possibly capped upside from athleticism, but I always counter with his elite bbiq which I believe more than off sets any concern but it's just my opinion nothing to base it on really. I think today's nba requires you to have more than one ball handler, and not just a ball handler but they better both be one of the best players on the team. The teams that have struggled the most seem to be the ones who only had one guy on the floor who can create plays and a defense can be implemented to at least force them into bad sets. If Harden and CP3 can co-exist and the trio of playmakers on the GSW's can all co-exist, and teams like the Raptors where the best player basically creates his own shot and nothing else. Then when Lowry is off the floor, and he isn't my ideal pg but when he's gone Derozan isn't creating for others, and you have a true backup pg caliber player creating for others. Offenses become stale and leads slip. A better example might be the pacers. When Oladipo was off the floor how hard was it to score? When he was on the floor all it took was sending a high double to force it out of his hands and the Pacers looked lost.

It might be recency bias and super team effect but Idk why we would have to trade DSJ if we drafted Doncic. Even if Doncic isn't drafted I can promise everyone here DSJ will play off ball next year just like this year and I'd rather that player with the ball be Doncic or in the future a starting caliber player not simply a backup pg and not a 2nd 6'0 pg at that. The only requirement to make it work is that both players become great at playing off the ball with cuts and 3pt ability. And I see no reason both shouldn't be fantastic at that?

Personally, I think it's only an issue if they either both A. Can't shoot or B play defense. I understand that out of the top 5 prospects, 3-4 are centers which immediately screams ideal fit + BPA. I just think at the end of the day, you don't pass on a player like Doncic. But that assumes you believe, like I do, that he is on another level.

Bryan_Wilson · 05-05-2018, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

Personally, I think it's only an issue if they either both A. Can't shoot or B play defense. I understand that out of the top 5 prospects, 3-4 are centers which immediately screams ideal fit + BPA. I just think at the end of the day, you don't pass on a player like Doncic. But that assumes you believe, like I do, that he is on another level.

The only fit problem I can see is on defense. But I think he could defend 3's the kicker would be can Barnes defend 2's? I still have him as 3rd behind Ayton and Bamba but he's still my favorite player in the draft if that makes sense.

sefant77 · 05-05-2018, 02:21 PM

People always point out Doncics defense but with Bagley its no problem...interesting.

Bryan_Wilson · 05-05-2018, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

People always point out Doncics defense but with Bagley its no problem...interesting.

I'm with you. I think it's because the athletic profile of Bagley is he should be a good defender with coaching and development, because he has the tools. But that's still nothing more than hope. I still say Doncic has the bbiq necessary to at the very least be adequate against 2's and only have a tough time against elite 2's which shouldn't be a negative imo. He'd still be in my top 2 if not for the fact that I think Bamba changes the entire team for the better. So while true bpa for me is doncic it's close enough that I can't stop myself from taking someone who would change life for 4 other players on the floor for the better and make life extremely difficult for 5 players on the other side.

Underdog · 05-05-2018, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

I'm curious why people think Doncic and DSJ would be such a terrible fit we would have to trade DSJ? I understand the concern about his possibly capped upside from athleticism, but I always counter with his elite bbiq which I believe more than off sets any concern but it's just my opinion nothing to base it on really. I think today's nba requires you to have more than one ball handler, and not just a ball handler but they better both be one of the best players on the team. The teams that have struggled the most seem to be the ones who only had one guy on the floor who can create plays and a defense can be implemented to at least force them into bad sets. If Harden and CP3 can co-exist and the trio of playmakers on the GSW's can all co-exist, and teams like the Raptors where the best player basically creates his own shot and nothing else. Then when Lowry is off the floor, and he isn't my ideal pg but when he's gone Derozan isn't creating for others, and you have a true backup pg caliber player creating for others. Offenses become stale and leads slip. A better example might be the pacers. When Oladipo was off the floor how hard was it to score? When he was on the floor all it took was sending a high double to force it out of his hands and the Pacers looked lost.

It might be recency bias and super team effect but Idk why we would have to trade DSJ if we drafted Doncic. Even if Doncic isn't drafted I can promise everyone here DSJ will play off ball next year just like this year and I'd rather that player with the ball be Doncic or in the future a starting caliber player not simply a backup pg and not a 2nd 6'0 pg at that. The only requirement to make it work is that both players become great at playing off the ball with cuts and 3pt ability. And I see no reason both shouldn't be fantastic at that?

The bolded part is exactly the problem though -- from what I've seen, neither guy is particularly great at playing off the ball (unlike Harden and Paul). Like, you get 50% of the player when the ball is out of their hands... I mean, there's nothing wrong with adding another ball handler next to DSJ, but I'd rather get someone who actually thrives when playing off the ball (like Malik Newman in the 2nd round), especially since the price would be the highest draft pick we've had in years... If Doncic was an obvious generational talent, then I might be willing to try it out, but it's not like he's clearly better than Ayton, Bagley, Jackson, Bamba, Porter, etc. (even in a vacuum). I just don't see enough of a difference in overall talent to ignore fit and declare Doncic the BPA where we'll be picking.

Underdog · 05-05-2018, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

People always point out Doncics defense but with Bagley its no problem...interesting.

I like both of them less than most precisely for their lack of defense... That's why I'm more intrigued by defensive stalwarts like Jackson, Bamba and Bridges -- because I think scoring will come easier to them than defense will come to Bagley or Doncic.

DevinHarriswillstart · 05-05-2018, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

People always point out Doncics defense but with Bagley its no problem...interesting.

One has elite athleticism and the other does not.

No matter what you think of either, Bagley without a doubt fits better with Smith jr than Doncic does.

Underdog · 05-05-2018, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

One has elite athleticism and the other does not.

No matter what you think of either, Bagley without a doubt fits better with Smith jr than Doncic does.

I can definitely agree with this... Bagley has tools to work with on defense, Doncic does not.

Hell, undersized Yogi is probably already a stronger defender than point-forward Luka will ever be.

SMC0007 · 05-05-2018, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

I'm curious why people think Doncic and DSJ would be such a terrible fit we would have to trade DSJ? I understand the concern about his possibly capped upside from athleticism, but I always counter with his elite bbiq which I believe more than off sets any concern but it's just my opinion nothing to base it on really. I think today's nba requires you to have more than one ball handler, and not just a ball handler but they better both be one of the best players on the team. The teams that have struggled the most seem to be the ones who only had one guy on the floor who can create plays and a defense can be implemented to at least force them into bad sets. If Harden and CP3 can co-exist and the trio of playmakers on the GSW's can all co-exist, and teams like the Raptors where the best player basically creates his own shot and nothing else. Then when Lowry is off the floor, and he isn't my ideal pg but when he's gone Derozan isn't creating for others, and you have a true backup pg caliber player creating for others. Offenses become stale and leads slip. A better example might be the pacers. When Oladipo was off the floor how hard was it to score? When he was on the floor all it took was sending a high double to force it out of his hands and the Pacers looked lost.

It might be recency bias and super team effect but Idk why we would have to trade DSJ if we drafted Doncic. Even if Doncic isn't drafted I can promise everyone here DSJ will play off ball next year just like this year and I'd rather that player with the ball be Doncic or in the future a starting caliber player not simply a backup pg and not a 2nd 6'0 pg at that. The only requirement to make it work is that both players become great at playing off the ball with cuts and 3pt ability. And I see no reason both shouldn't be fantastic at that?

This.

Also, to try and compare a rookie and 2nd year player with harden and cp3 is too high of a bar to set or even be concerned with. Sure Mathews can play off the ball and shoot the 3 and play defense, but that is it. Hes not even a good passer. At least doncic sees the floor infinitely better than anyone else in the range we are looking so not only can he create his own offense, but he is taking some load off Dsj and making others better / getting them better looks.

I do not see how he doesnt fit next to Dsj.

I can find positives of anyone that has been mentioned by people here, but to me its unfair or maybe even silly to mention some of these guys as not a fit. It's likely going to take a year or maybe even a cpl years for anyone we get to settle in and show the promise we hope for. We are lucky dsj is way ahead of the curve.

Bryan_Wilson · 05-05-2018, 05:06 PM

Neither is going to be picked for their defense. It's just splitting hairs to me comparing their defense. One has bbiq/instincts that help overcome elite athleticism and the other has athletic tools that help overcome a lack of instincts and understanding on defense. It's just a matter of preference.

Normally I'm on the side of athletic upside but to me Doncic is just special. And Bagley for all his tools isn't just a little development and good coaching away from being a great defender, he really had no business being as bad as he was defensively.

I'd love if there was a compiled list of the 7ft bigs Bagley went against and how he fared and how they fared. I thought it was here but I can't find it but someone posted an article here or maybe reddit that showed just how bad Bagley was on defense. It was around the time he missed some games and Duke was like 15 points better on defense but 10 worse on offense. It was a small sample size iirc which is why I'd really be interested in a compiled list of the 7'0 guys he faced and what the results were. Maybe I'll get bored during these shitty playoff games and make one if I can't find one already made.

SMC0007 · 05-05-2018, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Neither is going to be picked for their defense. It's just splitting hairs to me comparing their defense. One has bbiq/instincts that help overcome elite athleticism and the other has athletic tools that help overcome a lack of instincts and understanding on defense. It's just a matter of preference.

Normally I'm on the side of athletic upside but to me Doncic is just special. And Bagley for all his tools isn't just a little development and good coaching away from being a great defender, he really had no business being as bad as he was defensively.

I'd love if there was a compiled list of the 7ft bigs Bagley went against and how he fared and how they fared. I thought it was here but I can't find it but someone posted an article here or maybe reddit that showed just how bad Bagley was on defense. It was around the time he missed some games and Duke was like 15 points better on defense but 10 worse on offense. It was a small sample size iirc which is why I'd really be interested in a compiled list of the 7'0 guys he faced and what the results were. Maybe I'll get bored during these shitty playoff games and make one if I can't find one already made.

That list would be interesting... but he took it to Bamba and Texas wit a huge game. Fwiw

sefant77 · 05-05-2018, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

One has elite athleticism and the other does not.

No matter what you think of either, Bagley without a doubt fits better with Smith jr than Doncic does.

One of them has an elite brain and feel/understanding for the game...on generational level considering his age.

hayth.james.g · 05-05-2018, 07:43 PM

I see the appeal of Bamba. I would feel great about getting him if we draft 5/6. I just think he is a project with huge upside - like a Jonathan Isaac/Ntilikina from last year.

Again this is IMHO, but I believe Doncic has the "it" factor you have to look for that impacts your team at every level.

Also, I think people are going too far in their doubts with Ayton. Don't get me wrong, I have problems with the lethargic defense too. But the guy is special with immense upside. I keep seeing comments like "no lebron" in this draft, and I just have a hard time with that framing of the conversation. I believe he is the best big man to come into the league since Anthony Davis, and maybe 2nd best in last 20 years.

tap2390 · 05-05-2018, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

One of them has an elite brain and feel/understanding for the game...on generational level considering his age.

Racking my brain I just can't think of a single NBA SG/SF who was/is a perennial all-star player despite lack of athleticism.

hayth.james.g · 05-05-2018, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tap2390

Racking my brain I just can't think of a single NBA SG/SF who was/is a perennial all-star player despite lack of athleticism.

Jason Kidd? Larry Bird? Not 2/3s necessarily but they certainly give you an idea of what we are envisioning when we speak of Doncic. Keep in mind that you are putting him into the 2/3 spot when in today's game it is much less defined.

hayth.james.g · 05-05-2018, 10:09 PM

I'll add Doncic's highlights from April:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTK8sgZAj4w

Bryan_Wilson · 05-05-2018, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

I'll add Doncic's highlights from April:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTK8sgZAj4w

I like how he uses his body. I think if he gets better at changing speeds like Ginobili was then he's going to be just fine despite the lack of athleticism. Still my favorite player. I can't wait to see him in the NBA.

Scoobay · 05-05-2018, 11:52 PM

Some Playoff teams with two best players guards:
Portland
Toronto
Washington

None of them Going anywhere

Guess you could say Paul and harden are best two on rockets but they still haven’t done anything yet

Two best players as guards? Historically maybe the warriors before Durant... pistons bad boys teams... just a thought in regards to how to weigh having the build around DSJ and Doncic

DevinHarriswillstart · 05-06-2018, 01:33 AM

I will say that if Doncic doesn't live up to his hype if drafted by the Mavs, then they are in big, big trouble. At least with the bigs you at least get rebounding even worst case scenario minus maybe JJJ. With Doncic, the Mavs biggest weaknesses, defense and rebounding, don't get addressed at all.

hayth.james.g · 05-06-2018, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I will say that if Doncic doesn't live up to his hype if drafted by the Mavs, then they are in big, big trouble. At least with the bigs you at least get rebounding even worst case scenario minus maybe JJJ. With Doncic, the Mavs biggest weaknesses, defense and rebounding, don't get addressed at all.

The Mavs biggest weakness is they have noone that can dominate a game. Doncic has been doing that against much higher competition than the NCAA now for some time.

The most impressive thing about Doncic is the way he completely alters the game. He breaks down defenses using his high BBIQ and passing skills. He controls his body well, fantastic handles, and can shoot.

People are greatly overstating his athleticism challenge. I get it. You see Bamba, JJJ, and Ayton. It's hard not to get excited about them. But understand that Bamba and JJJ are very much projects with much lower floors than Doncic. Could they blossom and be fantastic? Absolutely.

I believe you take Doncic then get aggressive with our cap space in FA. Solid options to explore to fill out our roster. If you can't make DSJ + Doncic work, you eventually make a trade. I'm still concerned about DSJs limitations long term to build a championship team around. His game is flashy and fun which is great, but when was the last time a player like him won the championship? We will learn more next year after he has a full off season under his belt. Love his professionalism thus far.

dirt_dobber · 05-06-2018, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

.... when was the last time a player like him won the championship? .

hate to say it but Dwayne Wade

sefant77 · 05-06-2018, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoobay

Some Playoff teams with two best players guards:
Portland
Toronto
Washington

None of them Going anywhere

Guess you could say Paul and harden are best two on rockets but they still haven’t done anything yet

Two best players as guards? Historically maybe the warriors before Durant... pistons bad boys teams... just a thought in regards to how to weigh having the build around DSJ and Doncic

Doncic could be also a Point Forward.

The Mavs told allready a thousand times that this is the last lottery and they are planning to be a winning team again. So im pretty sure they would take Doncic over projects like JJJ and Bamba...

EricaLubarsky · 05-06-2018, 10:43 PM

46 days to draft
9 days until the lottery

Underdog · 05-07-2018, 09:06 AM

8 days until the lottery... So many topics I'd love to get into, but we really need to find out the order before I spend any time on it. Everything is still so hypothetical right now.

EricaLubarsky · 05-07-2018, 09:58 AM

SMC0007 · 05-07-2018, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

I'll add Doncic's highlights from April:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTK8sgZAj4w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9flJ_nUAhw

3:20ish smh

DevinHarriswillstart · 05-07-2018, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9flJ_nUAhw

3:20ish smh

Aren't you the one who said anyone can post a highlight reel to make someone look good when I posted the Bamba reel?

And that still isn't as impressive as this at 5:20...one that actually counted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpnB63lNovc

SMC0007 · 05-07-2018, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Aren't you the one who said anyone can post a highlight reel to make someone look good when I posted the Bamba reel?

And that still isn't as impressive as this at 5:20...one that actually counted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpnB63lNovc

Yea, that Bagley one is sick no doubt!

The reason I liked the Luka one, was that it was just smooth fluid motion and so casual.

Underdog · 05-07-2018, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Aren't you the one who said anyone can post a highlight reel to make someone look good when I posted the Bamba reel?

And that still isn't as impressive as this at 5:20...one that actually counted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpnB63lNovc

Love it! You get to see Marvin's biggest weakness (FTs) and strengths (offensive rebounds, creative scoring in the paint) rolled into one play.

Scoobay · 05-07-2018, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Doncic could be also a Point Forward.

The Mavs told allready a thousand times that this is the last lottery and they are planning to be a winning team again. So im pretty sure they would take Doncic over projects like JJJ and Bamba...

Maybe Luka plays SF and we trade Barnes at some point?

Underdog · 05-07-2018, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoobay

Maybe Luka plays SF and we trade Barnes at some point?

Chandler Parsons 2.0

(or at least what we were hoping he'd become)

SMC0007 · 05-07-2018, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Love it! You get to see Marvin's biggest weakness (FTs) and strengths (offensive rebounds, creative scoring in the paint) rolled into one play.

LOL

Scoobay · 05-07-2018, 10:59 AM

[QUOTE=sefant77;1435162]Doncic could be also a Point Forward.

The Mavs told allready a thousand times that this is the last lottery and they are planning to be a winning team again. So im pretty sure they would take Doncic over projects like JJJ and Bamba...[/QUOTE

Double post

EricaLubarsky · 05-07-2018, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoobay

Maybe Luka plays SF and we trade Barnes at some point?

I think he will essentially have to play one of the forward positions to be effective in the NBA. He will get absolutely demolished by guards. Can you imagine a slow, plodding, 6'8" guy trying to guard Harden or Thompson?

SF is also both Barnes' natural position and dude is earning 50million over the next two years.

Doncic could end up being a player that transcends the game like Dirk and is ultimately worth it, but he's going to cause some pain in the short term with our roster comp.

sefant77 · 05-07-2018, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Aren't you the one who said anyone can post a highlight reel to make someone look good when I posted the Bamba reel?

And that still isn't as impressive as this at 5:20...one that actually counted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpnB63lNovc

Yeah, missing a FT this badly is impressive