Nelson on with Norm this morning at 10:10

[MightyToine]

GEEZ......Walker has made more last-second shots than Finley has THIS SEASON! Remember Seattle? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Rhylan]

I don't recall the word "failure" being used in my last post.

All I'm saying is that, either the best player needs to start imposing his will, or they need to bring in a coach who calls plays that go through his best player.

It's safe to say that Nellie, at 60-something, isn't going to change. Dirk, at 25, could change. If he doesn't change soon, Nellie's zip code will be what ends up changing first.

[dirno2000]

Originally posted by: dude1394
I haven't heard that nellie thought that was an option play dirno?? where do you see that?

He didn't use the work option play. When asked why he ran the play for Finley he replied "who else could I go to? Dirk touched the ball, but he passed it to Finey". Thus, he was implying that Dirk had the option to take the last shot.

[dude1394]

Really!! Murphy was saying that he didn't hear that. If he's hinting that dirk didn't want to take the shot and that's why fin did, I REALLY want to hear that. Fireable offense imho.

[TwoDeep3]

Why am I not surprised that people sitting in their livingrooms know what play was drawn up and how it unfolded?

You people are truly a unique group.

So what were Dirk's numbers in the second half?

Just amazing.

[dirno2000]

Originally posted by: TwoDeep3
Why am I not surprised that people sitting in their livingrooms know what play was drawn up and how it unfolded?

You people are truly a unique group.

So what were Dirk's numbers in the second half?

Just amazing.

Tell me what you saw.

[TwoDeep3]

From reading this thread, I see we are blaming the coach. Someone is mentioning reading Dirk's expression and deriving some kind of clue to his mindset after the play.

I saw a smaller Michael Finley with much more speed against Peja. Fin should have taken him off the dribble. But he elected to do his usual jumper. He lost the handle.

I also saw Dirk clanging iron for most of the second half.

If Fin makes the shot, people would be complaining about other aspects of the game. The team should have won by 15, they would say.

The actual truth is the Mavs shot terribly last night and the PLAYERS didn't come up at the end of the game.

No one is talking about a missed lay-up by Daniels. Or Nash missing.

It's all about giving the ball to Dirk.

And in that ridiculous commentary, you are saying:

1. You know better than a coach that has actually won games in the NBA.

2. That somehow Dirk was going to recover from his woeful shooting night.

3. Because it's Dirk the Kings would play lousy defense and the game would have been tied.

The real shame of all this is that several seasons ago the Mavs shocked everyone and had a great year. The fan base was thrilled by their sudden jumping into the play-offs.

I said then that the honeymoon would be short lived. And that people will forget who got them there.

Blame the coach. But I didn't see Nelson take one shot last night. I saw a bunch of players that didn't execute.

[u2sarajevo]

No TwoDeep3, what we are saying is that when the game is on the line let your best player bring the win home.

And in case you have forgotten, Nelson is the one that drew up the play for Finley. So although he did not shoot the ball himself, the player he selected to did.

[TwoDeep3]

I know exactly what you are saying. I can read and comprehend.

It's the same shade tree coaching that goes on here everytime they play.

Where are the posts that hold the players accountable?

There aren't any.

And that should spell it out for you. The Kings are a terrible defensive team and yet the Mavs shot under 40% for the night.

That is the problem. Not a drawn up play with 18 seconds left on the clock to TIE the game.

[u2sarajevo]

I think calling out Finley is inferred when it is stated that you think Dirk should have taken that shot. But if not, you are right. Finley didn't step up. Neither did Nash. Neither did Daniels. Najera did. Dirk did (despite your trying to color it differently).

Personally, I think the problem is that for some reason we can't play good Offense/Defense at the same time. It's either one or the other.

And although a tie doesn't win, it gets you closer. I still think that the possibility of accomplishing that would have been greater had Dirk taken that shot instead of cold shooting Finley.

And once it's tied, who knows?

[dirno2000]

OK, if you watched that whole game and can honestly say that you thought that letting Finley (who was clearly cold, can't dribble and can't get to the line) create a shot then I have to question your basketball acumen. No I don't know more than Nellie, but it doesn't take a basketball genius to know who should have taken the last shot: the one starter that was shooting over 40% and who has the ability to get to the line. That's pretty simple Two Deep. Does this forum go overboard in it's criticism of Nellie at times? Yes, but this is not one of those times. That was a horrible decision.

If you have read thought the various threads you have surely seen that Nash is getting criticized also. Really there's not much you can say about the players IMO...they played hard. It's not like they tried to miss the layups. I don't even blame Finley for his mishap. His coach put him in a bad position.

[TwoDeep3]

I guess we will all see it as we do. Dirk scored alot of points.

But his stretch in the second half where he was doing nothing, just like every other Mavs player, is where the game was lost.

The Kings offered that game up and a chance to even the series. The Dallas players choked and didn;'t take it away.

Now tell me what the score would have been had the real Dallas offense shown up.

Blaming one play and suggesting "if only Dirk had taken that shot" ignores Dallas scored about 25 points under their season average.

And that comes down to the players on the court. They are responsible.

You see it's easy to blame the coach. Because you can always get another coach. The posts about firing nellie have been growing every year since the Mavs have made the play-off with the big three.

Yet if you assign the failure to the players, you have a completely different set of circumstances. Because you can't fire them.

Path of least resistance for the fan.

An illogical premise.

Does Nellie bear some of the responsibility?

You damn right he does.

Does he bear the re4sponsibility for this game.

Not when a teamthat shoots well above 40% and posts over 105 ppg shoots under 40% and scores only 79 points.

At some point you have to look at the people with their hands on the ball.

[TwoDeep3]

OK, if you watched that whole game and can honestly say that you thought that letting Finley (who was clearly cold, can't dribble and can't get to the line) create a shot then I have to question your basketball acumen.

And here it comes. If you disagree with the mantra of this site, then you are questioned.

Blame Nellie for players failing.

It hurst when someone points out something obvious like players not taking advantage of a situation where the Kings were giving the second game away.

Let's lynch the coach because it must be his fault.

I have said Dirk doesn't want the rock when the game is on the line. I stand behind that.

[dirno2000]

There's not guarantee that Dirk would have even made the shot. Nellie’s job is to put his team in the position to win a game that could have been won despite the cold shooting and he didn't do that.

But yes, ultimately the responsibility falls on the players.

As far as the calls for Nellie's head; when you are as unconventional as he is, you damn well better be successful or you're constantly going to be under fire. Right now what he's doing is not working.

[bernardos70]

Funny stuff, Dirk deferred to Finley...... he gets the inbound pass and finley comes through to go get the ball...... I doubt Dirk was ever given the chance to take the shot.

[ISmellmyTshirts]

Two Deep. You make some damn good points. I'm so surprised to come back to this board and see an alternate view of the situation instead of the same ol same ol. Although I dont agree with everything. I think Dirk did have a respectable shooting night. Also, it is very easy to make an assumption about the play being STRICTLY designed for Finely, because it is one of Nelson's go to plays to end a game. I think I've been seeing the 'inbounder receive the ball back and rubbing off the screen play' for the past six year. So it would be very easy to assume that dirk was written out of the play.

However, I think the play has an option for the screener -- in this case dirk. Basically play point guard- recognize who has the mismatch, the inbounder or the screener. Dirk felt mike could take peja, otherwise he would of taken it himself. Does anyone remember who was guarding nowitzki? I've feel like I've seen the play run this way also.

Is there actually an option in the play? I don't know for sure. But I don't think anyone else here knows either unless they were in the huddle or have the mavericks playbook. So you can't prove me wrong.
So, NO. Nellie did not sell out nowitzki.

Plus if I remember correctly, every member of the big three had a chance to take the big shot. Dirk stumbled and slip/fell and had to break from the play designed for him.
Nash clanged two threes late. And finally the Finley fiasco. So if I'm coach, and I just see Nowitzki botch a big play by nearly falling down(which he seems to do often) and nash miss his second wide open three, I might be inclined to go to Finley also.

That said, I would of played the two man game with nash and dirk.

[dirno2000]

And here it comes. If you disagree with the mantra of this site, then you are questioned.

It's not just the mantra on this site, but pretty much in every media outlet that I have watched or listened to. You and Nellie are the only people that I have heard go on record and say that Finley was the best option. I don't know more about the NBA than Nellie, but you probably don't know more than Doug Collins.

Again, Dirk may have missed the shot, but he was the higher percentage option.

[Murphy3]

I"m not sure of Dirk's second half stats, but I do know that he was 3-6 from the field in the 4th (with one of the misses being a forced three when the game was all but over). He also was 2-2 from the line in the 4th.

That's pretty damn good especially compared to what the rest of the mavs were throwing out there.

[SeriousSummer]

If (through some horrible twist of fate) it had been up to me, then I would have preferred to have Dirk take the last shot. Maybe by running that strange reversed pick & roll where he handles and Nash sets the screen, but, on the other hand:

1. Finley doesn't handle the ball well, but normally he can always get a shot off by taking a dribble or two and then going straight up. That's probably the most reliable way for Dallas to get a quick shot unless there's a height mismatch somewhere. Please note, I said get a quick shot, not necessarily make it.

2. Basketball plays are always designed as a series of options. There was probably enough time left to run through a couple of them--Dirk faking the hand-off or Finley kicking back outside to Nash or whatever. My guess is that Dirk had the ball too far away from the basket to fell comfortable making a one-on-one move. Dirk likes to get the ball facing up if he's further away from the basket than the elbow. Finley probably thought he could take a dribble left and rise and shoot before Peja could respond. Maybe if he hadn't lost the ball he could have.

Because he missed, I wish Dirk had kept the ball and tried to drive or Mike had swung the ball back to Nash for the three-pointer and the win. Of course, none of Nellie, Dirk, Mike or Steve knew that Mike would lose the ball when he tried to go up for the jumpshot. He's made that move hundreds, probably thousands, of times, and made the shot pretty regularly.

It's hard not to obsess over it because it was a crucial situation, but the decisions made by the coach and the players were all reasonable--just didn't work this time.

[grndmstr_c]

There was no need for a quick shot this time, though. If I remember correctly there were still like 19 seconds on the clock. That's plenty of time to run an actual play. I agree that if the priority is just to get off a quick shot Fin's probably the best option because of his ability to elevate off the jump stop, but I don't agree that the situation made the choice a reasonable one. Fin should have been the third option at best on that play, not the first.

[Stitch Jones]

Originally posted by: dirno2000
OK, if you watched that whole game and can honestly say that you thought that letting Finley (who was clearly cold, can't dribble and can't get to the line) create a shot then I have to question your basketball acumen. No I don't know more than Nellie, but it doesn't take a basketball genius to know who should have taken the last shot: the one starter that was shooting over 40% and who has the ability to get to the line. That's pretty simple Two Deep. Does this forum go overboard in it's criticism of Nellie at times? Yes, but this is not one of those times. That was a horrible decision.

If you have read thought the various threads you have surely seen that Nash is getting criticized also. Really there's not much you can say about the players IMO...they played hard. It's not like they tried to miss the layups. I don't even blame Finley for his mishap. His coach put him in a bad position.

Here! Here!

2 Deep, you make viable points but bottom line:

In that situation, you give it to your 7ft., all-star, able to penetrate, able to shoot over anyone, game high-scoring, matchup nightmare, playoff scoring-machine - who just happens to be your best player!!!!

I don't care if he just pulled an 0-fer for the entire 4th quarter. With the game on the line, Dirk should get the last shot - period!

DUMB - ASSED call by Nellie.

[dude1394]

Pretty interesting that someone would try to defend giving the ball to mike for the last shot based on dirks 4th quarter shooting percentage. Even if true, finley was far worse and should never have been the option, if that's the argument.

[ISmellmyTshirts]

Originally posted by: Stitch Jones


In that situation, you give it to your 7ft., all-star, able to penetrate, able to shoot over anyone, game high-scoring, matchup nightmare, playoff scoring-machine - who just happens to be your best player!!!!

game high scoring - Of course!
matchup -nightmare - hell yeah, how do you think he gets all those points.
playoff scoring machine - tru dat!
able to penetrate - uh..... debatable
able to shoot over anyone- um... not really, his success is dependent upon a mismatch -- hence all the pick and rolls.

[Rhylan]

Originally posted by: TwoDeep3

Blame Nellie for players failing.

Blame Nellie for calling an iso play for his WORST ball handler on the court at the time, against a defender with a 3-4 inch height advantage.

I have said Dirk doesn't want the rock when the game is on the line. I stand behind that.

You might be right - but the truth is that NOBODY knows definitively whether or not Dirk is a last-shot guy, because his coach won't consistently run the offense through him at those times.

As the best player on the team, it should be Dirk's responsibility to succeed or fail in that position. Once he's been given that responsibility consistently, if he fails, then you'll be right, TwoDeep. But until then, we KNOW it's not Finley's place anymore, and it shouldn't go to him.

[Lonely PSU Mavs Fan]

It is just disappointing to me that when Nellie calls a "play" with the game on the line, all it is is 4 guys stand around and watch Finley shoot a jumper. This is a VERY important game in the series, why doesn't he call an actual play with people moving around, or a pick and roll with dirk and steve that at least forces the inadequate sacramento defenders to do something. By running such a simple play the mavs played right into the kings hands.

[Lonely PSU Mavs Fan]

double post--sorry

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: TwoDeep3
I guess we will all see it as we do. Dirk scored alot of points.

But his stretch in the second half where he was doing nothing, just like every other Mavs player, is where the game was lost.

I think that is well established. What we were discussing however is that our "chances" of evening the score during the Finley jump shot sequence would have been greater had Dirk been the one shooting the ball.

The Kings offered that game up and a chance to even the series. The Dallas players choked and didn;'t take it away.

Now tell me what the score would have been had the real Dallas offense shown up.

Blaming one play and suggesting "if only Dirk had taken that shot" ignores Dallas scored about 25 points under their season average.

No, that is not being ignored. What is being discussed is what would have given us the best shot of evening up the game at that point in time.

And that comes down to the players on the court. They are responsible.

Agreed. The players on the court are the ones who scored 25 points under their season average. But you are ignoring the beginning argument. It was not a argument of how do we score more points, it was an argument of who should have been the option on that particular play.

You see it's easy to blame the coach. Because you can always get another coach. The posts about firing nellie have been growing every year since the Mavs have made the play-off with the big three.

Yet if you assign the failure to the players, you have a completely different set of circumstances. Because you can't fire them.

Path of least resistance for the fan.

Path of least resistance? If the coach draws up the play for the "wrong" person to take a shot, who else to you lay the blame on?

An illogical premise.

Ignoring that it was a wrong decision for the coach to not give the ball to his best player when the game was on the line seems to me to be illogical

Does Nellie bear some of the responsibility?

You damn right he does.

Does he bear the re4sponsibility for this game.

Not when a teamthat shoots well above 40% and posts over 105 ppg shoots under 40% and scores only 79 points.

At some point you have to look at the people with their hands on the ball.

At some point you need to get past the season average. Last nights average was 79, the play that would have gotten us to 81 points and even to the opponent is what I am complaining about.

[mavsman55]

PSU mavs fan, you are totally right. There was 19 seconds left. I don't fault Nellie for giving the ball to Finley as much as having anybody shoot a contested jump shot over anybody. He called the wrong play, and the wrong player for the play that he called. If you're gonna shoot over somebody, give it to Dirk who'd been doing that the whole game. But why shoot a contested shot when you can give the ball to Dirk who can create for himself? Even Nash, while on a cold shooting night, was 3/3 driving it to the hole, he probably could have done the trick. I blame this loss on Nelson not because of the last play (after all, it's not his fault Finley lost the ball) but once again, as I've stated several times, his refusal to play Shawn Bradley when it counts.

[ISmellmyTshirts]

Does anyone want to comment on the fact that the Kings final play was a pick and role with Bibby and Brad Miller -- a guy who was completley out of it for the whole series. I don't even know why he was on the court., actually. You would think, you would run, bibby - webber, or bibby peja....

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: ISmellmyTshirts
Does anyone want to comment on the fact that the Kings final play was a pick and role with Bibby and Brad Miller -- a guy who was completley out of it for the whole series. I don't even know why he was on the court., actually. You would think, you would run, bibby - webber, or bibby peja....

And he made his shot. Of course he had a gift wrapped look at the basket, and didn't get any pressure until Najera committed to him too late.

That sucked the life force out of me.

[Mavs Rule]

Originally posted by: Mavs Rule
This is what Nellie said in the Dallas Morning News:

What I want to know is when that play has worked in the final minute of a game? Has it ever worked? All I remember is failure after failure. It always ends with a turnover or he is trying to hit a fadeaway over a double team.

Thanks to Gerry Fraley for doing the research and answering my question on this one:

In the regular season, the Mavericks had 16 games in which they were tied or trailed by up to three points during the final minute of regulation or overtime. In those games, Finley was 0-for-5 from the field with one point during the final minute of regulation or overtime.

Almost any other choice would have been better than the one Nellie chose:

IN THE CLUTCH
The Mavericks had 16 regular-season games in which they were tied or trailing by up to three points during the final minute of regulation or overtime. A look at the individual performances during the final minute in those games:
Player FGM-FGA Pts.
Steve Nash 8-14 22
Dirk Nowitzki 4-8 13
Antoine Walker 4-11 10
Travis Best 2-3 6
Shawn Bradley 2-2 4
Marquis Daniels 1-3 2
Josh Howard 0-1 2
Antawn Jamison 1-5 2
Eduardo Najera 1-1 2
Michael Finley 0-5 1

[Mavs Rule]

Nellie saying that Finley has really been good on that play this season was the topper. What a joke!

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: dude1394
Pretty interesting that someone would try to defend giving the ball to mike for the last shot based on dirks 4th quarter shooting percentage. Even if true, finley was far worse and should never have been the option, if that's the argument.

It's not true, dude. When Fin took the shot, Dirk was shooting 60% in the fourth (3 of 5). Dirk missed an off balance three to end the game that wouldn't have had any bearing on the outcome of the game even if he would have made it. That put Dirk at 3 of 6 in the 4th. That's 50%. Plus, Dirk was 2-2 from the line in the 4th.

Obviously, TwoDeep pays absolutely no attention to what anyone else says. He consistently ignores facts. That's just the way he is.

[PubaNWO]

Maybe the play was drawn up for Finley but as an option Dirk could have kept the ball and made a move on his own....

Dirk's "toss pass" was like "here you go it's your show..." so infact you could say he deferred to Finley....

but that play was bad because you never want one guy going one on one like that unless it's Jordan....

Finley isn't MJ...

[PubaNWO]

I think there was another break down in the closing seconds of the 2nd or 3rd?? Howard had to throw up a quick one handed push shot that actually went in but it was too late....

have to have better execution in key moments....

let's not forget that we had the lead ON THE ROAD in one of the TOUGHEST places to play IN THE 4TH Q and was up 4 but missed layups, putbacks and committed turnovers that lost the lead....

it was in this time that the Mavs needed to get the ball to Dirk to score and keep the lead....

well poor coaching and execution did infact lose this game.....

also Walker should be playing more.....

[PubaNWO]

Did Fins say in the paper after game 1 that if one person had played well to back up Dirk they would have won that game.

So maybe Dirk gave Mike his chance to step up and help Dirk out in game 2 on that final play.