[Post Game] Mavs@ Thunder: lol announcer

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Fair enough. I think between Roddy and Jet you can get everything JJB gives you from better players. I think by the end of the year JJB is the third string PG and match up spark plug (think Darrell Armstrong).

Which fits him perfectly...you're just looking for a spark from your 3rd PG. If you get it, it's perfect, if not...he's your 3rd string.

I think Roddy and Jet can co-exist on the court together, preferably if Marion is out there with them for defense. Those guys need the ball in their hands to be effective but both of them have good enough vision to drive and kick. If they kick it to each other, I trust both of them can hit the jumper...definitely more so than Barea.

Jet's defense is much better this year as well, the gambles he's taking are paying off.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Which fits him perfectly...you're just looking for a spark from your 3rd PG. If you get it, it's perfect, if not...he's your 3rd string.

I think Roddy and Jet can co-exist on the court together, preferably if Marion is out there with them for defense. Those guys need the ball in their hands to be effective but both of them have good enough vision to drive and kick. If they kick it to each other, I trust both of them can hit the jumper...definitely more so than Barea.

Jet's defense is much better this year as well, the gambles he's taking are paying off.

I absolutely think Jet and Roddy can work in the backcourt together. It's not ideal, but if Jet/JJB can work there's no reason that Jet/Roddy can't work better.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I absolutely think Jet and Roddy can work in the backcourt together. It's not ideal, but if Jet/JJB can work there's no reason that Jet/Roddy can't work better.

Sure there is. When Jet and Barea are on the court together, there is a point guard on the floor. We don't know that the same can be said when Jet and Roddy are on the floor together.

I feel like there is this sort of disconnect, between looking at what we deem as a player's overall sort of talent level and looking at how he can play his position. At least when it comes to the backcourt, that is. I think we would all agree that Terry or Beaubois, regardless how good they are as NBA players, can't play the power forward. Why do we seem to think that they necessarily can play the point guard?

I think Barea is a better point guard than Terry. I feel pretty strongly about that, actually. I suspect that Barea is a better point guard than what Roddy will be this year. So why should I expect those guys to take his position?

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I think Barea is a better point guard than Terry. I feel pretty strongly about that, actually. I suspect that Barea is a better point guard than what Roddy will be this year. So why should I expect those guys to take his position?

If we're right, the preseason seems to be an indication that they were looking ahead to when Roddy comes back. Jet was getting minutes at the point guard position and they kept going to it. Why else would they be doing that unless it's at least a theory they want to try out?

Jet also knew that he needed to get the minutes, I believe he asked to get some minutes during the preseason at the point. Everyone knows that Roddy is going to get minutes, so Jet knows his minutes are in danger...thus trying to work at the point.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

If we're right, the preseason seems to be an indication that they were looking ahead to when Roddy comes back. Jet was getting minutes at the point guard position and they kept going to it. Why else would they be doing that unless it's at least a theory they want to try out?

Jet also knew that he needed to get the minutes, I believe he asked to get some minutes during the preseason at the point. Everyone knows that Roddy is going to get minutes, so Jet knows his minutes are in danger...thus trying to work at the point.

I will have to beg your pardon here, because in the midst of that Rangers run among other things, I did not follow the preseason. So regrettably, I can't offer any observations about how well it did or did not work. But as far as testing the theory? Good idea, I'm sure. But, there was a fair amount of back history to go on, no?

I don't know...one way of looking at it would be to say that if you have to use a preseason to look at Terry at the point, given where Terry is at in his career and what his track record is, you probably aren't going to like what you see. It reminds me of Avery Johnson sending Marquis Daniels to summer league to "see what he has" in that player. If you have to look that hard, it's probably not a good sign.

Look, I don't know what Roddy coming back is going to do to everybody's minutes--and let's certainly hope that it's a net positive, because the team is looking pretty darn good right now. But what I think I do know is that the coach likes what he is getting from his backup PG. I realize that goes completely counter to the prevailing opinion on this board, but it doesn't change what I see.

[sike]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Look, I don't know what Roddy coming back is going to do to everybody's minutes--and let's certainly hope that it's a net positive, because the team is looking pretty darn good right now.

I've been thinking about this point...because in this crazy hoop game where chemistry is so important, you certainly CAN have too much of a good thing. I'm wondering how all these vets who are taking less minutes for "the good of the team", etc...respond when/if a young and UNPROVEN second year kid takes some of their precious floor time?

[sike]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Sure there is. When Jet and Barea are on the court together, there is a point guard on the floor. We don't know that the same can be said when Jet and Roddy are on the floor together.

I feel like there is this sort of disconnect, between looking at what we deem as a player's overall sort of talent level and looking at how he can play his position. At least when it comes to the backcourt, that is. I think we would all agree that Terry or Beaubois, regardless how good they are as NBA players, can't play the power forward. Why do we seem to think that they necessarily can play the point guard?

I think Barea is a better point guard than Terry. I feel pretty strongly about that, actually. I suspect that Barea is a better point guard than what Roddy will be this year. So why should I expect those guys to take his position?

Jason Terry didn't run point for their run to the championship series??

Surely you are not saying JJ is a prototypical pass first, keep the offense flowing point guard?

edit: I just noticed you said simply that you think JJ is a better pg than Terry. Can't argue with your opinion I suppose. I would just say neither are really point guards in the typical sense...and one has MUCH more pg experience than the other and that happens to be the one that is a much better basketball player.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Sure there is. When Jet and Barea are on the court together, there is a point guard on the floor. We don't know that the same can be said when Jet and Roddy are on the floor together.

I feel like there is this sort of disconnect, between looking at what we deem as a player's overall sort of talent level and looking at how he can play his position. At least when it comes to the backcourt, that is. I think we would all agree that Terry or Beaubois, regardless how good they are as NBA players, can't play the power forward. Why do we seem to think that they necessarily can play the point guard?

I think Barea is a better point guard than Terry. I feel pretty strongly about that, actually. I suspect that Barea is a better point guard than what Roddy will be this year. So why should I expect those guys to take his position?

I think just about anyone that watches JJB play would agree that he's a tweener guard just like Jet. He's not a prototypical point guard and honestly he's often most effective when playing off the ball.

I think Jet's a far better player and can run the point well enough to make it work.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think just about anyone that watches JJB play would agree that he's a tweener guard just like Jet. He's not a prototypical point guard and honestly he's often most effective when playing off the ball.

I think Jet's a far better player and can run the point well enough to make it work.

sike, let me answer both thiggy and you here...


What are you guys thinking, if you don't see a very marked difference in PG play between the two? Unlke thig, I think that just about anyone who watches JJB play would agree that he is a PURE point guard, who is stretched into some SG duties just because we don't really have one of those animals on our team! He is exactly a prototypical point guard, thig.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

sike, let me answer both thiggy and you here...


What are you guys thinking, if you don't see a very marked difference in PG play between the two? Unlke thig, I think that just about anyone who watches JJB play would agree that he is a PURE point guard, who is stretched into some SG duties just because we don't really have one of those animals on our team! He is exactly a prototypical point guard, thig.

Couldn't disagree more, and I've seen numerous notes from Fish that lead me to believe that the Mavs disagree with you too.

I do think that JJB is better at running the point that Jet. But it's not a wide enough gap to offset the difference in their overall talent levels.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Couldn't disagree more, and I've seen numerous notes from Fish that lead me to believe that the Mavs disagree with you too.

I do think that JJB is better at running the point that Jet. But it's not a wide enough gap to offset the difference in their overall talent levels.

Tell me what you mean by couldn't disagree more, and the notes that you have seen. You are talking about JJB being a tweener? What a tweener guard is, as far as I know, is a guy who is not a pure one. Otherwise he would be a PG and everyone would be happy.

[sike]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

He is exactly a prototypical point guard

(In my opinion) He is WAY more offensively minded than a prototypical point guard. He is a prototypical scorer in a prototypical point guard's body.

I've been plain spoken in my criticism of JJB, but he has been very valuable at times this season....but when he is at his best and truly helping the team to the best of his abilities, it is NOT because he is keeping the offense moving smoothly or bc he is making the perfect pass. It is because of his uncanny knack of getting in there among the trees and making tough buckets.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by sike

(In my opinion) He is WAY more offensively minded than a prototypical point guard. He is a prototypical scorer in a prototypical point guard's body.

I've been plain spoken in my criticism of JJB, but he has been very valuable at times this season....but when he is at his best and truly helping the team to the best of his abilities, it is NOT because he is keeping the offense moving smoothly or bc he is making the perfect pass. It is because of his uncanny knack of getting in there among the trees and making tough buckets.

And oddly enough, I think you are looking at precisely the wrong things. I mean, the penetration is nice--and sometimes it certainly stands out--but you have to look way deeper than that.

Carlisle has said that we want to be the best zone team in the league, right? Well, we get some comments on this board about how we HAVE to play zone with Barea in there. Stop and think for a minute. Maybe you have it all backward. Maybe Barea is in there precisely *because* we want to be a good zone team. I mean, he is pretty good at it. He works his ass off out there. He gets in there and takes charges on almost a nightly basis. He closes out on shooters. (Remember the Atlanta game, I think it was, when he closed out, recovered from the pump fake, and then closed out again?) He seals down and blocks out guys who are way, way bigger than him. Stop down and scout Barea for a game or two. You may be surprised.

That's the kind of stuff a coach is looking for. Granted, we should see it from every one of our players. But it is highly possible that Barea gives it--day in and day out, in practice and in the games--when the guy who would be playing in his stead does not. I find it interesting that people talk about Chandler rubbing off on Terry, and the good defense that Terry is playing. Yet Barea is out there drawing fouls left and right and no one gives him props for that? Here is one thing I know for damn sure: You can't draw an offensive foul if you aren't in *position* to draw that call. Somehow Barea keeps on being in position, and yet that goes unnoticed? A guy is not in position, and you aren't going to notice that, because the ball just came out of the net and it's going the other way up the floor.

On offense...yes, it is true that Barea can't throw it in the sea from the 3-point line right now, which is very disappointing. But if that is your sole focus, you aren't seeing the whole game. You know what is a big point of emphasis for us (as it should be for every team in the league)? Controlling turnovers. For the most part, Barea does a good job of that. (Trust me, if Jet brought it up every time Barea did, you would see a lot more turnovers. I agree completely with dude here...press Terry and it's game over.) And how about Murph's old mantra, about how the Mavs have never had a PG who would re-post the ball? Watch Barea and Dirk run the two-man game. Barea will re-post it to Dirk until Dirk is sick of it.

But of course, re-posting the ball to Dirk isn't sexy to talk about. It's far sexier to talk about poor Barea missing a rushed three because no one else had the nuts to take the shot before the clock ran out. Bitch about that tree, and never see the forest.