Would a star free agent ever come here?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

This a huge underrated part of the "problem". There's a core of guys that like playing with each other there is no one on this roster who is apart of that culture.

I just don't really agree with this. If the money is right and the team is moving up instead of stripping down to nothing deron would be here.

The other stupid thing that cubes has done is wasted the lure of a championship team. He could have had second tier players looking seriously at Dallas to try and compete for a ring. That would have lasted at LEAST two years, even after the strike season.

But instead he completely squandered that opportunity. I can't believe how stupid he and Donnie have been. They have completely wasted at least three years ( and probably the rest ) of dirks career.

His only hope is that a "superstar" wants a bunch of money but a team doesn't want to pay him. They will NOT be superstars either but wannabes. Bynum comes to mind. Very good, but not really good enough.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

This a huge underrated part of the "problem". There's a core of guys that like playing with each other there is no one on this roster who is apart of that culture.

I think fish is off base on this. Nashie didn't want to come here either.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

But there will be times when the Los-Angeles and New-York based teams will be set, or even successfull at the moment, and there still will be available top tier talent, that can't go there. You don't necessarily have to chase a top FA all the time obviously, but if you can create cap space, you try it every time. It's not like we're gonna do this every year, this was the first time Cuban tried it in the last 10 years. But you gotta try it, especially when your star player is 34 years old. It's a no brainer, really. Gotta find that next guy, because you won't ever win in this league without him, or maybe once in every 30 years, like the Pistons did, but maybe they are the only team in the history of the NBA who won it without one? They're certainly the only one since the early 80's, so the last 30 years.

The problem was getting cap space by letting the ony player except for dirk who had any value go. It was incredibly stupid.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by iella

What this mean is that now, 8 of the 12 members of the 2008 Olympic team play in New York, LA, or Miami? 67% ain't no joke.

I hope you're happy, David Stern.

How did stern do this? We could have had tow of them.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Slight overreaction.

True, slight overreaction.

[LonghornDub]

I'm lol'ing at the "colonystateofmind" tags on these threads. Kudos to whoever did that.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by iella

What this mean is that now, 8 of the 12 members of the 2008 Olympic team play in New York, LA, or Miami? 67% ain't no joke.

I hope you're happy, David Stern.

I saw this earlier, then I double checked it. It's actually 8 without Dwight--9 if he goes to BK.

Lebron
Wade
Bosh

Kidd
Melo
DWill
Dwight

Kobe
CP3

Only three guys left out are Tayshaun, Redd, and Boozer. Lol.

[rabbitproof]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm lol'ing at the "colonystateofmind" tags on these threads. Kudos to whoever did that.

Man, every day I see the title of this thread, I say no outloud.

[rabbitproof]

Here a spreadsheet expressing that thought.

date would a superstar come here?
1-Jul no
2-Jul no
3-Jul no
4-Jul no
5-Jul no
6-Jul no
7-Jul no
8-Jul no

[GermanDunk]

Originally Posted by Windmill360

Who was the last big name/star free agent to ever play in a city outside of LA, South Florida, New York, Chicago?
Nash...

The Salary Cap should prevent such tendencies, but they exist, obviously

[G-Man]

When is the last time a superstar went to a team that had cap space to bid for them? Usually the only teams with cap space suck. Since their current team can offer them an extra year=25 million, why would any star go to a bad team for less money? The only examples are the Miami 3 where 2 stars agreed to take less to play together. The idea that CP3 would take 25 million less to leave LA for Dallas is more ridiculous than trying to get DWill. Time to quit with the pipe dreams, stop drawing to an inside straight and do what is likely to work.

When superstars do move, they are traded and usually because they are flawed. Melo and Iverson come to mind here. Or demanding a trade like CP3 and Howard (which is also a flaw in my book) Same with the almost superstars, Monta and Martin in Houston, for example. No one has ever demanded a trade to Dallas. If you want one of those types, you have to trade for them and that means you need assets to trade.

This is why trading Dirk makes sense, if you can get a bunch of good draft picks and decent players for him...serious tradeable assets. We'd have a couple of lottery picks of our own if we let him go, as well. Min might give you KLove and picks, since they don't want to pay him the max. Dirk would fill seats and in 2 years resign for less. Memphis would give you anybody but Gasol.

Whether Dirk stays or leave, Cuban needs to go back to what he does best...amass talent and trade up. He and Donnie have made some brilliant deals-Josh to DC, Antwann to DC, Antoinne for Jet, even Harris for Kidd. That, and the draft of Dirk is how they built the championship team. There is an opportunity right now to start again. Lots of decent players out there pretty cheap. Not stars, but possible assets. That's what we need to make a deal for a disgruntled superstar. If we had assets like, say a DPOY center, we'd have a lot better chance to trade for Howard than we have of getting him with cap space. More often than not its the team that determines where a star goes in a trade than the player, and you can't trade them cap space. So I say we need to sign up some guys like Sessions and Mayo and coach them up into more valuable assets, then make some deals.

[Dtownsfinest]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I just don't really agree with this. If the money is right and the team is moving up instead of stripping down to nothing deron would be here.

The other stupid thing that cubes has done is wasted the lure of a championship team. He could have had second tier players looking seriously at Dallas to try and compete for a ring. That would have lasted at LEAST two years, even after the strike season.

But instead he completely squandered that opportunity. I can't believe how stupid he and Donnie have been. They have completely wasted at least three years ( and probably the rest ) of dirks career.

His only hope is that a "superstar" wants a bunch of money but a team doesn't want to pay him. They will NOT be superstars either but wannabes. Bynum comes to mind. Very good, but not really good enough.

I just don't see it. You could never have a Lebron, Wade or Bosh situation here because there is no one who is "cool" with other superstars and hangs out with them in the offseason. You don't have anyone on this team who is a buddy with Deron Williams or Dwight Howard. These guys hang around each other all offseason and talk about coming and playing for a respective team and do the best they can to get there. Dirk's not going to do it. Marion's not gonna do it. That being said, there's only a few guys in this elite club.

I think Kevin Durant is one of the few guys who sort of wants to do it on his own. And there are probably a few others out there like him but not of the caliber of Durant.

And in regards to your opinion on Bynum? If Dwight Howard is the best center in the league than Bynum is clearly #2 and there's no one close to them two. Bynum may be hte best offensive big man in the league. I think he's a little better than you make him out to be. He will be worth the big money once he gets it. Hibbert? I can't say the same for. He's more Dwight Howard than he is Roy Hibbert.

[Dtownsfinest]

Originally Posted by G-Man

When is the last time a superstar went to a team that had cap space to bid for them? Usually the only teams with cap space suck. Since their current team can offer them an extra year=25 million, why would any star go to a bad team for less money? The only examples are the Miami 3 where 2 stars agreed to take less to play together. The idea that CP3 would take 25 million less to leave LA for Dallas is more ridiculous than trying to get DWill. Time to quit with the pipe dreams, stop drawing to an inside straight and do what is likely to work.

When superstars do move, they are traded and usually because they are flawed. Melo and Iverson come to mind here. Or demanding a trade like CP3 and Howard (which is also a flaw in my book) Same with the almost superstars, Monta and Martin in Houston, for example. No one has ever demanded a trade to Dallas. If you want one of those types, you have to trade for them and that means you need assets to trade.

This is why trading Dirk makes sense, if you can get a bunch of good draft picks and decent players for him...serious tradeable assets. We'd have a couple of lottery picks of our own if we let him go, as well. Min might give you KLove and picks, since they don't want to pay him the max. Dirk would fill seats and in 2 years resign for less. Memphis would give you anybody but Gasol.

Whether Dirk stays or leave, Cuban needs to go back to what he does best...amass talent and trade up. He and Donnie have made some brilliant deals-Josh to DC, Antwann to DC, Antoinne for Jet, even Harris for Kidd. That, and the draft of Dirk is how they built the championship team. There is an opportunity right now to start again. Lots of decent players out there pretty cheap. Not stars, but possible assets. That's what we need to make a deal for a disgruntled superstar. If we had assets like, say a DPOY center, we'd have a lot better chance to trade for Howard than we have of getting him with cap space. More often than not its the team that determines where a star goes in a trade than the player, and you can't trade them cap space. So I say we need to sign up some guys like Sessions and Mayo and coach them up into more valuable assets, then make some deals.

Why would a team trade for Sessions or Mayo when they can get them right now?

[G-Man]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Why would a team trade for Sessions or Mayo when they can get them right now?

They are young guys with potential. In a good sitiation with good coaching, they can get better. Sessions had a good year with LA but froze up in his 1st playoff spotlight. Hopefully he learned from that. A year from now, he could be more valuable...just like JJBarea stank it up for 3 years before he got it together. Just like Westbrook was bad enough to sit an entire 4th quarter against the Mavs in last year's playoffs. Now he's a beast. For a team like Orlando that is going to lose Howard for nothing next year, a trade for a few usable/tradeable pieces is all they are going to get. Look at what they are considering from the Nets. A Tyson/JJB offer would be a better deal-except the MBT decided cap room was more valuable than trade assets.

[G-Man]

Originally Posted by dude1394

The other stupid thing that cubes has done is wasted the lure of a championship team. He could have had second tier players looking seriously at Dallas to try and compete for a ring. That would have lasted at LEAST two years, even after the strike season.

But instead he completely squandered that opportunity. I can't believe how stupid he and Donnie have been. They have completely wasted at least three years ( and probably the rest ) of dirks career.

I had never really thought this true, but you are right. The Mavs won a championship without a Robin to Dirk's Batman. The problem is they were old. They could have spent the last off season getting younger. Look at what the Spurs have managed to do around Duncan and Parker. For the money they paid Carter and Odom, they could have added some younger mid level talent and the cupboard would not be so empty. Well it's not empty...it has CAPSPACE.

Originally Posted by dude1394

His only hope is that a "superstar" wants a bunch of money but a team doesn't want to pay him. They will NOT be superstars either but wannabes. Bynum comes to mind. Very good, but not really good enough.

And if such a player exists as a free agent, he'd rather do a sign and trade and get that extra year than come to the Mavs for 25 million less. This is a strategy uniquely possible with a guy who wants to return to his home town. But Bosh ain't coming back and neither is Deron.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by G-Man

This is why trading Dirk makes sense, if you can get a bunch of good draft picks and decent players for him...serious tradeable assets. We'd have a couple of lottery picks of our own if we let him go, as well. Min might give you KLove and picks, since they don't want to pay him the max. Dirk would fill seats and in 2 years resign for less. Memphis would give you anybody but Gasol.

And why would Dirk agree to be traded to Minnesota or Memphis? This is the key point people seem to keep missing. In the fictional world where Dirk wants to be traded, he's only going to accept a trade to a contender. And you don't get good draft picks from contenders. You get crappy ones. You get the same ones we've been using for a decade and getting almost nothing out of.

Whether Dirk stays or leave, Cuban needs to go back to what he does best...amass talent and trade up. He and Donnie have made some brilliant deals-Josh to DC, Antwann to DC, Antoinne for Jet, even Harris for Kidd. That, and the draft of Dirk is how they built the championship team. There is an opportunity right now to start again. Lots of decent players out there pretty cheap. Not stars, but possible assets. That's what we need to make a deal for a disgruntled superstar. If we had assets like, say a DPOY center, we'd have a lot better chance to trade for Howard than we have of getting him with cap space. More often than not its the team that determines where a star goes in a trade than the player, and you can't trade them cap space. So I say we need to sign up some guys like Sessions and Mayo and coach them up into more valuable assets, then make some deals.

You have to factor in the cost of those moves, and what they would cost now. That's why Cubes has changed his MO; he can't afford it any more. And to compound the issue, once you're in the LT you're ability to acquire players is now hampered.

The new CBA put a serious wrench in how the Mavs used to do business. They're still trying to figure out the best way to adjust. But they can't keep doing what they've been doing.

[purplefrog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

And why would Dirk agree to be traded to Minnesota or Memphis? This is the key point people seem to keep missing. In the fictional world where Dirk wants to be traded, he's only going to accept a trade to a contender. And you don't get good draft picks from contenders. You get crappy ones. You get the same ones we've been using for a decade and getting almost nothing out of.



You have to factor in the cost of those moves, and what they would cost now. That's why Cubes has changed his MO; he can't afford it any more. And to compound the issue, once you're in the LT you're ability to acquire players is now hampered.

The new CBA put a serious wrench in how the Mavs used to do business. They're still trying to figure out the best way to adjust. But they can't keep doing what they've been doing.

Being a CBA novice, I have a question....Can the Mavs use an MLE because they are under the cap? If so, why not use it?

Also, it seems to me that the real restrictions come at the LT level, which is something over $70M. The Mavs are obviously no where near that number, so again the caution they are exhibiting seems excessive.

Perhaps someone could in nice short direct statements list the benefits of being under the salary cap and how that becomes even worse when we get into LT territory. I seem to remember there was a thread on the new CBA, I guess I should have read it! I tried looking at the Coons' site but it was a bit overwhelming given the time I'm willing to spend studying it. A Cliff notes version is what I'm looking for. It might help with all the criticism the MBT is receiving to make the costs and benefits more clear.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by purplefrog

Being a CBA novice, I have a question....Can the Mavs use an MLE because they are under the cap? If so, why not use it?

Also, it seems to me that the real restrictions come at the LT level, which is something over $70M. The Mavs are obviously no where near that number, so again the caution they are exhibiting seems excessive.

Perhaps someone could in nice short direct statements list the benefits of being under the salary cap and how that becomes even worse when we get into LT territory. I seem to remember there was a thread on the new CBA, I guess I should have read it! I tried looking at the Coons' site but it was a bit overwhelming given the time I'm willing to spend studying it. A Cliff notes version is what I'm looking for. It might help with all the criticism the MBT is receiving to make the costs and benefits more clear.

The reason they need cap space is they need a way to absorb (or sign) a max contract. That's why they need flexibility and space.

As far as LT, teams only have the mini-MLE in order to improve their team, rather than the full MLE and the Bi-Annual Exception.

Also, starting next season, teams can't acquire players in a Sign and Trade if they're over the luxury tax.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by jthig32

The reason they need cap space is they need a way to absorb (or sign) a max contract. That's why they need flexibility and space.

As far as LT, teams only have the mini-MLE in order to improve their team, rather than the full MLE and the Bi-Annual Exception.

Also, starting next season, teams can't acquire players in a Sign and Trade if they're over the luxury tax.

So Thig, by "starting next season" do you mean next summer?
In that case it would be next to impossible for The Nets or LAL to
do a sign and trade for Dwight, right. That is if he makes it to free-agency
without being traded for Bynum, etc. Or am i missing something?

[The Ghost of Championship]

Do we really think we had anything to offer Deron Williams? Maybe two years of declining Dirk? Please.

Step 1: Shed cap...

--The Ghost of Championship Past

[ribosoma]

Originally Posted by The Ghost of Championship

Do we really think we had anything to offer Deron Williams? Maybe two years of declining Dirk? Please.

Step 1: Shed cap...

--The Ghost of Championship Past

Wow, ghosts are real a$$holes. Not only do they take shots at Dirk, but they trail-off mid-point and leave us hanging in great anticipation for what I'm sure was an elaborate and thoughtful list.

[The Ghost of Championship]

Originally Posted by ribosoma

Wow, ghosts are real a$$holes. Not only do they take shots at Dirk, but they trail-off mid-point and leave us hanging in great anticipation for what I'm sure was an elaborate and thoughtful list.

Calm down the Dirk sensitivity, Nancy. The guy has 14 years in and won't last forever. Sad, I know.

As for Step 2, I'm The Ghost of Championship Past. You'll need to conjure The Ghost of Championship Future to answer that duh. Wanna say bloody mary's with me?

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by The Ghost of Championship

Do we really think we had anything to offer Deron Williams? Maybe two years of declining Dirk? Please.

Step 1: Shed cap...

--The Ghost of Championship Past

I don't think we're going to see much of a declining dirk over the next two years. His numbers will decline a bit simply because he might get less minutes. But he'll still be Dirk. That's the great thing about what the Mavs are doing. Hopefully he'll be fresher for the playoffs. 'IF' the Mavs land Brand, they will be at least capable of advancing in the playoffs.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I don't think we're going to see much of a declining dirk over the next two years. His numbers will decline a bit simply because he might get less minutes. But he'll still be Dirk. That's the great thing about what the Mavs are doing. Hopefully he'll be fresher for the playoffs. 'IF' the Mavs land Brand, they will be at least capable of advancing in the playoffs.

That's basically it. He'll single-handedly get you to the playoffs, but if he's playing 82 games at 45 per, we're not going anywhere. Get a rested dirk into the playoffs with a couple of decent pieces and we can shake it up a bit.

[The Ghost of Championship]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I don't think we're going to see much of a declining dirk over the next two years. His numbers will decline a bit simply because he might get less minutes. But he'll still be Dirk. That's the great thing about what the Mavs are doing. Hopefully he'll be fresher for the playoffs. 'IF' the Mavs land Brand, they will be at least capable of advancing in the playoffs.

True. Dirk is in that superstar stage where production stays high while decline is clearly visible. All the great longevity players were able to produce at high rates while declining. That wasn't my point though.

If there were 5-7 years of MVP level Dirk then Deron Williams would be crazy to not put on a Mavs uniform next season. Cuban's not offering 5-7 years of guaranteed high level Dirk though. He could fall off in year's 3-4 or start racking up serious injuries. WWYD if you were Deron and that's all Mavericks had to offer you? Star FA's don't have forever, and if they're championship hunting then they need a pitch that makes sense. That's why Williams is not here right now.

This team is going to have to build solidly around Dirk, not next to him. Get another Cinderella cast and you might upset The Big 3 model again. We aren't building our own Big 3 at this point in the game.

[sike]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

That's basically it. He'll single-handedly get you to the playoffs, but if he's playing 82 games at 45 per, we're not going anywhere. Get a rested dirk into the playoffs with a couple of decent pieces and we can shake it up a bit.

I see only 3 positives in getting into the playoffs but not really threatening to win it all:
1. It is always more fun to win more than you lose.
2. It might help lure a FA into thinking he is the missing piece of the puzzle and that Dallas isn't a bad place to sign bc they are determined to compete for a championship.
3. It might keep Dirk pacified.

All in all, I'm just not very interested in regularly being a 6th-8th seed and getting bounced early. If it works for next season to help get this team back into actual contention...then I'm all for it. Actually, I'm all for whatever plan has the highest probability to get this team back into contention the fastest for the longest period of time.

[mac222b]

Man if the Rockets do go through with that trade for Dwight, or some iteration of it,
that franchise will be stripped to the bone. Martin, Budinger, Dalembert, Scola,
Lowrey, Parsons, Morris all gone. Not to mention 2or3 of their 1st rd. picks this past draft and 2 or 3 future picks. They'll basically become the Orlando Rockets with Hedo, Baby, Richardson, etc.

A lot riding on hoping Howard decides to stay in Houston. Morey's essentially putting his job on the line.

[Underdog]

So, to summarize this thread:


Bill: "Ted, while I agree that, in time, our band will be most triumphant. The truth is, Wyld Stallyns will never be a super band until we have Eddie Van Halen on guitar."

Ted: "Yes, Bill. But, I do not believe we will get Eddie Van Halen until we have a triumphant video."

Bill: "Ted, it's pointless to have a triumphant video before we even have decent instruments."

Ted: "Well, how can we have decent instruments when we don't really even know how to play?"

Bill: "That is why we NEED Eddie Van Halen!"

Ted: "And THAT is why we need a triumphant video."

Bill, Ted: "EXCELLENT!" (air guitar)

[iella]

Originally Posted by The Ghost of Championship

WWYD if you were Deron and that's all Mavericks had to offer you? Star FA's don't have forever, and if they're championship hunting then they need a pitch that makes sense. That's why Williams is not here right now.

If I'm Deron, I seize the opportunity to play alongside Dirk for even 1-2 years, then recognize and have confidence that I have the star power to BE that guy, not just play with him. I look at the winning tradition of the franchise (especially when the other offer is from the Nets) and at Mark Cuban and I trust him to put pieces around me in the future that will allow me to win at the highest level for years. If Dirk stays healthy for those years, that's just a bonus.

Actually, in all honesty, if I'm Deron, I take the higher paycheck. Winning > Dollars is a nice thought, but ultimately, a nice thought is all it is.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by Underdog

So, to summarize this thread:


Bill: "Ted, while I agree that, in time, our band will be most triumphant. The truth is, Wyld Stallyns will never be a super band until we have Eddie Van Halen on guitar."

Ted: "Yes, Bill. But, I do not believe we will get Eddie Van Halen until we have a triumphant video."

Bill: "Ted, it's pointless to have a triumphant video before we even have decent instruments."

Ted: "Well, how can we have decent instruments when we don't really even know how to play?"

Bill: "That is why we NEED Eddie Van Halen!"

Ted: "And THAT is why we need a triumphant video."

Bill, Ted: "EXCELLENT!" (air guitar)

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Underdog again."

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by The Ghost of Championship

Do we really think we had anything to offer Deron Williams? Maybe two years of declining Dirk? Please.

Step 1: Shed cap...

--The Ghost of Championship Past

Well maybe we should have somehow thrown out dog sh!t for Joe Johnson, delay any outcome of their trade to NJ. We'll give you 3 firsts, Wood, Marion, Boobs, keep them at the table, delay their decision.

[The Ghost of Championship]

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

Well maybe we should have somehow thrown out dog sh!t for Joe Johnson, delay any outcome of their trade to NJ. We'll give you 3 firsts, Wood, Marion, Boobs, keep them at the table, delay their decision.

Excellent! ^^Someone thinking like a player in the game.

Better be careful Kidd, I'm known to e-coddle up to posters like yourself. Dumb it down a little if you don't like frequent leg humpings. Time for me to latch onto every word you say.

[saclare]

Bad troll is bad.

[LonghornDub]

Please let that be CadBane.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Please let that be CadBane.

I'm guessing it's Chandler.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Please let that be CadBane.

A kinder, gentler Cad threatening frequent leg humpings?

Cant picture Cad ever using the term "e-coddle" in any context

[SMC0007]

..." I wish we knew".

[The Ghost of Championship]

Sorry to interrupt this episode of Mancrush Confessions but I'm organic. I would have taken a moment to consider mimicking one or both of those posters but the search function on this site is awfully useless. Must not be a lot to do around these parts because each thread has upwards of 878 replies; I'm not willing to dig through that just to find a post or two and then satisfy your internet MANtasies. Gotsta keep the hook fresh if you want her to put any energy into it.

I tried tracking down how some poster with over 40,000 posts got banned and gave up after finding one single post in 15 minutes. Anyone have a rundown? 40K and get tossed? Damn.

Anyway, enough with the unoriginal & predictable troll charade. I'd like to avoid unnecessary moderator confrontation & they probably want to avoid your oversensitive post reporting.

Carry on. Dirk4life