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Old 05-18-2009, 11:23 PM   #1
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Default Barry's our man!!

You want higher energy prices!! Barry's your man!! cap-n-trade.

You want higher costs of autos!! Barry's your man!!!

Luv this guy... He's a liberals wet-dream.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Obama-...&asset=&ccode=

Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Barack Obama plans to propose the first-ever national emission limits for cars and trucks as well as average mileage requirements of 35.5 miles per gallon by 2016 -- all costing consumers an extra $1,300 per vehicle.
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Old 05-19-2009, 09:33 AM   #2
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I'm kind of shocked that these things have not been required before. I mean, we are almost to 2010 and we are just now setting mpg requirements?

This is a good thing. Not sure how you could see it otherwise.
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Old 05-19-2009, 09:59 AM   #3
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If you want a small car that gets higher gas mileage then buy it, it's out there and has been for years.
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:10 AM   #4
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So you totally discount trying to be friendlier to the environment? That can't be regulated in your eyes?

I understand not wanting over regulation, and I agree 100%. But I also think that it is warranted in specific situations. And this would be one I thought everyone could agree is worth protecting. If not for ourselves, our future generations.
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:12 AM   #5
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hmm, what is the cost to our country of air pollution? the costs of higher health issues due to air pollution, lost workforce productivity due to illness cuased by air pollution, those are real and should be recognized.

from the article linked (odd that you didn't cut and paste it, too...)
Quote:
It would save 1.8 billion barrels of oil through 2016 and would be the environmental equivalent of taking 177 million cars off the road, said senior administration officials speaking anonymously, ahead of the announcement.

New vehicles would be 30 percent cleaner and more fuel-efficient by the end of the program, they said.

Administration officials said consumers were going to pay an extra $700, anyway, for mileage standards that had already been approved. The Obama plan adds another $600 to the price of a vehicle, a senior administration official said, bringing the total cost to $1,300 by 2016.

That official said the cost would be recovered through savings at the pump for consumers and if gas prices follow government projections.
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:35 AM   #6
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well, I'm glad someone has the guts to make my decisions for me.
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:41 AM   #7
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well, I'm glad someone has the guts to make my decisions for me.
Isn't that what government is all about?
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:42 AM   #8
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Isn't that what government is all about?
53% of America can't be wrong.
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:42 AM   #9
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I've got 4 cars...3 of which get less than 20 MPG...those three pass the state inspection.

However my 4th car, which gets about 36 mpg fails the inspection due to the o2 sensor. I had to remove the Pre-Cats after they got sucked down into the engine and blew the engine. After about $2500 in repairs to rebuild the engine, removing the pre-cats...the car no longer passes inspection.

It works great, it's quiet and it gets 36 mpg...but the state would rather I drive the other cars dur to regulation, than to let me make a good decision to drive a smaller car that consumes less gas per mile.

It would run me nearly $4000 to have this repair done as it would require another engine rebuild and having faulty designed pre-cats put back in.

State inspections should only be safety inspections. Do the brakes work, the lights, the wipers? Yes, then here's your inspection.

Emmissions are a faulty test that has no consequence on the environment. Millions of people are paying $$$ for a fraudelant scare tactic.

The crazy part...I tried to register my car, but the state wont let me register the car until it passes inspection...so now I drive my car with no inspection and no registration...thanks to some foolish regulations that are counter productive.
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:46 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by u2sarajevo View Post
So you totally discount trying to be friendlier to the environment? That can't be regulated in your eyes?

I understand not wanting over regulation, and I agree 100%. But I also think that it is warranted in specific situations. And this would be one I thought everyone could agree is worth protecting. If not for ourselves, our future generations.
I think there's a pretty sound basis for environmental regulation vis property rights...that is, if you dump crap into the soil or into the air in your property and that crap winds it's way onto my property then you've damaged my property.

If we could agree that one of the fundamental functions of a government was to protect property rights, then I'd be pretty willing to accept a lot of environmental regulations.

Of course, I think the chief function of our existing government is the violation of property rights, so I'm inclined to view with some skepticism their concern for dear mother earth.
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:49 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by u2sarajevo View Post
So you totally discount trying to be friendlier to the environment? That can't be regulated in your eyes?

I understand not wanting over regulation, and I agree 100%. But I also think that it is warranted in specific situations. And this would be one I thought everyone could agree is worth protecting. If not for ourselves, our future generations.
I actually do not have much of an issue with enacting uniform emissions standards, if nothing else it won't allow CA or other states to force differing standards which causes certain products to not be available in CA.

The MPG to me is a bunch of hokum and will only cause our own auto dealers to compete where they don't compete well now by federal mandate. However since it appears the guvment will own most of 2 out of 3 automakers, they can finally run it like they want. We'll see.
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:55 AM   #12
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hmm, what is the cost to our country of air pollution? the costs of higher health issues due to air pollution, lost workforce productivity due to illness cuased by air pollution, those are real and should be recognized.

from the article linked (odd that you didn't cut and paste it, too...)
Sorry I didn't cut n paste all of the article. I could have added this also. I would expect the cost to our country due to air pollution is vastly over-hyped...but just my opinion. But since just about all climate control and oil usage is over-hyped...I expect I'm correct.

Quote:
The auto industry will be required to ramp up production of more fuel-efficient vehicles on a much tighter timeline than originally envisioned. It will be costly; the Transportation Department last year estimated that requiring the industry to meet 31.6 mpg by 2015 would cost nearly $47 billion.
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Old 05-19-2009, 11:33 AM   #13
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Another take on the gas-mileage standards...and this person is a algore climate supporter.

Quote:
What to say, beyond the obvious, about the administration's decision to raise fuel economy standards?

  • It will raise the prices of cars, and make them less safe
  • It will reduce our carbon emissions, but not by as much as advertised, because more fuel efficient cars make driving cheaper, so people will do more of it. This "rebound" effect robs about 25% of gains, and also means more congestion, and more wear-and-tear on roads
  • This will either help the Big Three compete, or seal their doom as the Japanese manufacturers continue to eat into their market share. If I had to bet, I'd wager this means big ongoing subsidies for our favorite three public charities.
  • If you want to cut down on the pollution from driving, this is about the worst possible way to do it. On the other hand, it may be the only politically feasible way to do it. If you take global warming seriously, as I do, it may be the best of a bad set of policy choices.
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:54 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by dude1394 View Post
Sorry I didn't cut n paste all of the article. I could have added this also. I would expect the cost to our country due to air pollution is vastly over-hyped...but just my opinion. But since just about all climate control and oil usage is over-hyped...I expect I'm correct.
can't agree that clean air is "over hyped".

the studies on the negative health affects of smog/ozone are very clear...it creates burdensome and costly health issues.

me, I'd rather pay more for a vehicle and continue to have functioning lungs.

apparently you don't have as much regard for your lungs (and other people's lungs as well) as I do.
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:53 PM   #15
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Another take on the gas-mileage standards...and this person is a algore climate supporter.

[/LIST]

the implication of your cut and paste would seem to be that it would be much more efficient to raise fuel taxes to affect consumption decisions.

Are you in favor of that?

(personally, I AM much more in favor of taxing the behavior that you want to influence, rather than imposing arbirary caps and targets)
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:53 PM   #16
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can't agree that clean air is "over hyped".

the studies on the negative health affects of smog/ozone are very clear...it creates burdensome and costly health issues.

me, I'd rather pay more for a vehicle and continue to have functioning lungs.

apparently you don't have as much regard for your lungs (and other people's lungs as well) as I do.
That's what makes the debate so challenging.

First the use of words to make any debate of the topic seem crazy. It removes any counter thought from being valid...thus the debate is over?

Your take is that cars are poluting the air to the point that is creating serious health care issues and thus making it more expensive for society as a whole.

At least that is what I understand from your view.

You base it on various studies, based on your history of posting, I would believe that you have multiple printed sources that have credibility in supporting your view.

The flip side, is that this environmental issue is either overstated if not blatantly false and we as a society are paying more money for something that is not a need.

Either way, one side or the other of the issue is going to be shelling out money for someone else's problem.

Ultimately, our pocket book is going to drive how we make and enforce policies. It's about making choices and priorities.

As it stands today, buying a new car or upgrading to some fancy "Environmental" car is against my budget. But then again, I buy my cars cash, versus on credit. Thus I buy cars that are used. You might say that I am being environmentally conscious with my pocketbook and as it is today, investing in something I don't believe is an issue would be a waste of my money.

I don't believe that we have a MAJOR polution problem with our cars. I do believe there is an effect on air quality, but I don't believe it is as major of an issue as some would lead us to believe.

Honestly, being a fat guy...I believe we have a much larger issue with regards to health as a society based on our addiction to food and sitting on our arse. The problem is that people with contol issues feel better by regulating environmental conditions from automobiles than to promote healthy living by its citizens.

After all, those with control issues can't make people eat healthy and exercise healthy...but they can control how and what people drive, to an extent.

Bottom line, how can people waste money on mechanical things that have no affect on environmental issues, while we have obese people in need of incentives to get healthy, while we have people dieing daily of AIDS, Starvation or even murdered in the womb?

Regulating exhaust on auto's is at or near the BOTTOM of the priority list.
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:57 PM   #17
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well... I gotta go change into my bike clothes for my 14 mile ride home


I do it to melt the butter off of my ass.... but it is nice to be able to take a "holier-than-thou" attitude on green issues occasionally as well
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Old 05-19-2009, 06:32 PM   #18
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the implication of your cut and paste would seem to be that it would be much more efficient to raise fuel taxes to affect consumption decisions.

Are you in favor of that?

(personally, I AM much more in favor of taxing the behavior that you want to influence, rather than imposing arbirary caps and targets)
Yes...If you were going to do it, that would be the most straightforward method, without the guvment penalizing a specific industry.
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Old 05-19-2009, 06:49 PM   #19
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what industry is the government "penalizing"?

the government has spent $billions building the roads that allow for these vehicles to use, and the gas tax doesn't come close to equalling this amount spent.

mandating emission standards is not a penalty.
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:40 PM   #20
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Guvment is penalizing us automakers who have not been able to compete on smaller automobiles. They are manipulating the market. They are not directly penalizing the companies but they are picking winners and losers here.
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:45 AM   #21
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Guvment is penalizing us automakers who have not been able to compete on smaller automobiles. They are manipulating the market. They are not directly penalizing the companies but they are picking winners and losers here.
Gimme a break. It happened in 1974, when they passed laws that greatly impacted the way the US companies--or anyone else who wanted to sell cars here--built cars. They didn't pick winners and losers. They simply said that you need do to it thus.

I think your boy Nixon was president at the time.
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Old 05-20-2009, 06:50 AM   #22
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Guvment is penalizing us automakers who have not been able to compete on smaller automobiles. They are manipulating the market. They are not directly penalizing the companies but they are picking winners and losers here.
not true. the automakers- every single one of them- have the ability to manufacture a vehicle that meets these standards. the new regs do not pick any winners or losers, the consumer will do that.
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Old 05-20-2009, 08:04 AM   #23
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Disagree with you guys.. The guvment IS penalizing the auto industry by choosing this mechanism to reduce fossil feul emissions. The guvment may have done it before (doesn't mean it was the right thing then either).

Let's see you as a company have been unable to compete with a certain kind of product, so you build another version of that product and market it successfully. The guvment decides that your version is the wrong one for the country and will now mandate that it is no longer able to be built (or that to build it you will have to spend resources that your competitor did not). Looks like the guvment is picking the winner to me.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:15 AM   #24
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your argument is only valid if the capability to produce vehicles that meet these new standards is shut to some manufacturers and available to other manufacturers.

that's not the case, every car company has the opportunity to produce vehicles that will meet the standards. the technology is not owned by one company and their exclusive right, quite the opposite....all the domestic companies can compete, they have the ability, they have the resources, they have the know how.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:18 AM   #25
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your argument is only valid if the capability to produce vehicles that meet these new standards is shut to some manufacturers and available to other manufacturers.
don't you mean: ". . . ability to run a business producing these vehicles is different for some. . . " rather than "capability . . is shut to some"?
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:56 AM   #26
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When they finally decide to build all electric cars that the engine in them is a hydrogen or biofuel based generator only...... and the cars can recharge themselves with solar and wind (when parked) energy, then I'll believe they are really trying to resolve the issues.
Adding the ability to economically also add a wind generator to your garage/house that is designed to simply plug the car into at night would be wonderful. As well as allowing people to recharge their car from the less expensive Grid energy.

Right now, it is just game playing and posturing. Too much money being made from Big Oil and Gas. Too much power.
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Old 05-20-2009, 10:43 AM   #27
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When they finally decide to build all electric cars that the engine in them is a hydrogen or biofuel based generator only...... and the cars can recharge themselves with solar and wind (when parked) energy, then I'll believe they are really trying to resolve the issues.
Adding the ability to economically also add a wind generator to your garage/house that is designed to simply plug the car into at night would be wonderful. As well as allowing people to recharge their car from the less expensive Grid energy.

Right now, it is just game playing and posturing. Too much money being made from Big Oil and Gas. Too much power.
what will we be doing to the delicate balance of the weather systems by removing all the wind energy like that? Once we go all solar + wind powered, some modern day Al bore will preach to us about how conversion of light to electricity removes warmth from the Earth and how removal of wind from the air prohibits rain from reaching the forest, causing poor antarctic penguinsto freeze to death.
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Old 05-20-2009, 01:14 PM   #28
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your argument is only valid if the capability to produce vehicles that meet these new standards is shut to some manufacturers and available to other manufacturers.

that's not the case, every car company has the opportunity to produce vehicles that will meet the standards. the technology is not owned by one company and their exclusive right, quite the opposite....all the domestic companies can compete, they have the ability, they have the resources, they have the know how.
I disagree...You can easily pick winners/losers by mandating certain products will be favorably accepted, therefore choosing which company has a competitive advantage and extending it. Sure the dis-advantaged company can spend resources to try and catch up, but they would not necessarily have done that if it was not mandated that a particular technology was not being favored. Nor would they necessarily do that if the government did not decide what the market desired.

Let's say the government decides that diesel automobiles will be advantaged, that would immediately provide companies with diesel engine expertise a competitive advantage. Same with smaller autos.
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Old 05-20-2009, 01:17 PM   #29
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As well as allowing people to recharge their car from the less expensive Grid energy.

Right now, it is just game playing and posturing. Too much money being made from Big Oil and Gas. Too much power.
This statement is interesting to me because it doesn't go to the second phase of economics. For the record I think PHEV's are the way to go...HOWEVER.... as soon as it becomes mainstream...your less expensive Grid energy will be a relic of the past, unfortunately.

It's still a better solution because you can control emissions from a central plant easier than from dispersed generators...but it'll no longer be nearly as cheap as it was I expect.
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Old 05-20-2009, 01:19 PM   #30
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what will we be doing to the delicate balance of the weather systems by removing all the wind energy like that? Once we go all solar + wind powered, some modern day Al bore will preach to us about how conversion of light to electricity removes warmth from the Earth and how removal of wind from the air prohibits rain from reaching the forest, causing poor antarctic penguinsto freeze to death.
AlGore will always be around to tell other people to not ride around in private jets.
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Old 05-20-2009, 01:28 PM   #31
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what will we be doing to the delicate balance of the weather systems by removing all the wind energy like that? Once we go all solar + wind powered, some modern day Al bore will preach to us about how conversion of light to electricity removes warmth from the Earth and how removal of wind from the air prohibits rain from reaching the forest, causing poor antarctic penguinsto freeze to death.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Usually Lurkin again.
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Old 05-20-2009, 01:39 PM   #32
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This statement is interesting to me because it doesn't go to the second phase of economics. For the record I think PHEV's are the way to go...HOWEVER.... as soon as it becomes mainstream...your less expensive Grid energy will be a relic of the past, unfortunately.

It's still a better solution because you can control emissions from a central plant easier than from dispersed generators...but it'll no longer be nearly as cheap as it was I expect.
Possibly true, but not by what I have read.

Hydroelectric, Solar, and Wind definitely have advancements to be made.
Hydrogen from water through harmonic breakdown should advance.
Tidal electric generation is being developed.
Magnetic engines that run off of small amounts of electricity and attraction/repulsion of magnets are gaining some ground.

Most things I have read say Grid electricity cost is actually going down.

There are many ways to get electricity into the Grid if it is done large scale and not having to pay the huge DEVELOPMENT costs.

I would venture to guess that if the US Gov cut out a couple of planes from the defense budget, and then offered that $$$ to Americans in the form of grants with the stipulation that when completed you could sell the electricity to the grid, but the patent on the design was publicly available and owned by the government --- that it would happen and quickly.

If they then made it available to third would countries, so much the better and likely many fewer battles.
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Old 05-20-2009, 02:32 PM   #33
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Whenever anyone talks about replacing fossil feul they seldom comprehend the magnitude of the problem.


For some reason it is difficult to find the percentage of renwables. They are currently about 7% and growing to about 9-12% per this report.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/demand.html

The bottom line is that we use a WHOLE HELL of a lot of energy....This report doesn't show renwables (including biomass) getting about 13% even by 2030.



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Old 05-20-2009, 02:41 PM   #34
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Here is an example of one of Detroits most profitable products being legislated away from them. You can quibble about whether this person is correct or not...but if they are..then barry has opted to take away a profitable product line from domestic car-makers.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090519/D989J3F00.html
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The new rules would bring new cars and trucks sold in the United States to an average of 35.5 miles per gallon, about 10 mpg more than today's standards. Passenger cars will be required to get 39 mpg, light trucks 30 mpg.
That means cars and trucks on American roads will have to become smaller, lighter and more efficient.
Eric Fedewa, vice president of global powertrain forecasting for the auto consulting firm CSM Worldwide in Northville, Mich., said the changes will make pickup trucks so much more expensive that they will be used almost exclusively for work.

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Old 05-20-2009, 04:47 PM   #35
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Whenever anyone talks about replacing fossil feul they seldom comprehend the magnitude of the problem.


For some reason it is difficult to find the percentage of renwables. They are currently about 7% and growing to about 9-12% per this report.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/demand.html

The bottom line is that we use a WHOLE HELL of a lot of energy....This report doesn't show renwables (including biomass) getting about 13% even by 2030.



That isn't the real problem though, and it has never been. It isn't like there is any lack of energy. The energy is here and is replenished by the sun daily.

The problem then and now is development cost, and how do I make my money.

Many people don't want to do it, if it doesn't make me money. Same with Cars right now. Why do cars cost more money to make in this country, than in any other country? -- because someone is willing to pay it, and mfgs want their cut.

Why would I develop a low cost reliable car that cost millions in development cost, thousands in production, and then only sell it for thousands? I mean, I should be rich in the end -- isn't that the American way?

Small diesel or hydrogen generators are fairly inexpensive. (could be less with mass produced)
Battery technology has come a long way. (could be less with mass production)
Motors on the wheels that use braking for recharge are not that expensive. (could be massively less with mass production)
Solar to help charge would come down greatly if mass produced.

Yet to put these together in a car -- outrageous prices.... because they need to recoup the development cost, and they would need to retool, and everyone still wants PAID.

How much cost of every vehicle produced today comes from paying for the labor, and not the product? I mean marketing, assembly, sales, all the C's want paid, and then you have the dealers, mechanics, and aftermarket people. It isn't that you don't need these people, the question is how much do they need to make.

Truly free market will always cause caste systems.

With that said, I don't want the government in charge of it either.

When it is decided that the environment is more important though than the $$$$ -- then I will believe. Right now, all I see is someone trying to play the shell game with the $$$$, and see if you can hide it somewhere else -- rather than with the ones that have had it and the power that goes with it.
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Old 05-20-2009, 05:03 PM   #36
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It is a huge part of the problem. Solar just doesn't scale unless you cover quite a few states. If it gets where it's as easy to put down as paint and there is infrastructure to collect and store it...then we'll see solar take off and maybe....get to what 30%? Maybe 50%..

Same with biomass...you'd have so much land cultivated...then how do you water, collect and dispose of the waste portions. Fossil feul is just about perfect....
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Old 05-20-2009, 05:42 PM   #37
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Whenever anyone talks about replacing fossil feul they seldom comprehend the magnitude of the problem.
One very small example of the problems.....

there's been quite a push over the last decade to build wind farms in W. Texas -- take a drive through Scurry or Upton or Pecos or Sterling County and you'll see what I mean.

...wind generated electricity is great with one small problem --the wind is stubbornly insistent on blowing most when electricity demand is the smallest and hardly blowing at all when electricity demand is the highest. Wind blows much stronger in the late fall and the early spring than it does in the heat of summer. If folks could be pursuaded to run their AC's in the late fall and the early spring and then shut off their AC's in August then wind would be a much better resource.
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Old 05-20-2009, 07:22 PM   #38
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Yes the problem with solar, wind, tidal are storage mechanisms. You just can't beat shoving more oil or coal into a furnace.
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Old 05-20-2009, 07:33 PM   #39
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can't agree that clean air is "over hyped".

the studies on the negative health affects of smog/ozone are very clear...it creates burdensome and costly health issues.

me, I'd rather pay more for a vehicle and continue to have functioning lungs.

apparently you don't have as much regard for your lungs (and other people's lungs as well) as I do.
Does the amount of health savings to air quality equal 2,000 extra deaths per year?

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The National Academy of Sciences has linked mileage standards with about 2,000 deaths per year. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimates that every 100-pound reduction in the weight of small cars increases annual traffic fatalities by as much as 715.
.......
The Natural Resources Defense Council said that the 35 MPG standard would save about one million gallons of gas per day. So how does that savings balance against the 2,000 fatalities per year that the National Academy of Sciences says are caused by those same lighter cars?
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:29 PM   #40
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Does the amount of health savings to air quality equal 2,000 extra deaths per year?
the stat you throw out is falacious.

first, if the speed is reduced fatalities are reduced as well.

second, safety standards can compensate for the smaller car, which is already taking place. the old small car was just a little box. the new small cars have much more collision safety built in.
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