Mavs to talk with Howard this week - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Nemesis · 09-24-2006, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

2 blocks, 2 steals per game and numbers nearly identical to Josh's across the board? Am I missing something here? Who cares what team it was on.. it's not like he was getting more touches than Josh or better matchups.. if anything else, he was getting guarded like the number one option most of the time and shooting less than Josh, at a much higher clip.

I think he's flat-out a better player. I think Josh's status is highly (and perhaps unfairly) elevated because he was the third banana on a Finals team. Do you really think the Mavs would have been worse if they had G-Wallace (perhaps the best athlete in the league) on the team? I certainly don't.

What in the hell are you talking about? Are you Gerald Wallace? Are you related to him? That is the only thing that explains this ignorant b-ball analysis. I regret commenting on this thread because it is totally off topic and is wasting my time with posts like these.

StackAttack · 09-24-2006, 10:10 PM

Are you shitting me? I'd take Gerald over Josh anyday. Better defensively, nearly identical offesnively. This is off topic anyway. My point is that Charlotte's going to go all out to grab Josh next offseason.

Five-ofan · 09-24-2006, 10:23 PM

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Originally Posted by #1MavsFan

This topic makes me laugh. Comparing Josh to freaking Gerald Wallce.

there are either quite a few people who vastly overrate josh howard or quite a few who have no clue how good wallace is. Its not off topic. The topic is josh howard and his contract and wallace would be one more than adequate replacement if josh gets too greedy.

Nash13 · 09-25-2006, 12:00 AM

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Originally Posted by Blab's Nemesis

What in the hell are you talking about? Are you Gerald Wallace?

This line made me laugh.

I really cannot believe this thread. Take this from somebody that lives in NC and watches Bobcats games (hate to admit that second part), I thank God you Wallace lovers aren't the gm of the Mavs.

We have Steve Nash and Shawn Marion to thank for this discussion. Wallace's numbers are so high b/c of the same reason Marion's are: he's undersized, very athletically gifted, and has a good point guard, really two good point guards to play with. Also like Marion, he has no shooting form, no shot at all, not very skill at anything besides defense and jumping, and is irrelevant in the crunch time of games. I mean ya'll do know Charlotte started playing him at the power forward right? that's why his rebounds/steals/blocks are as high as they are. Ya'll do know the reason why he got as much playing time as he did was b/c Okafor and May missed most of the season due to injuries right. If all teams played their athletic 3's at the 4, they're numbers would be about the same as Wallace's. There's a reason Charlotte won't offer him a lot of money, and it's not necessarily b/c they're cheap.

mavsfan1000 · 09-25-2006, 12:21 AM

Gerald Wallace can't shoot. I don't care what else he can do but that liability of not being able to shoot automatically puts him behind Josh Howard imo.

Dirkadirkastan · 09-25-2006, 01:52 AM

Give Josh what he wants, my Howard jersey is stll fairly new and I want it to stay current for awhile.

Who needs Wallace the name just makes me think of Sheed.

Five-ofan · 09-25-2006, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash13

This line made me laugh.

I really cannot believe this thread. Take this from somebody that lives in NC and watches Bobcats games (hate to admit that second part), I thank God you Wallace lovers aren't the gm of the Mavs.

We have Steve Nash and Shawn Marion to thank for this discussion. Wallace's numbers are so high b/c of the same reason Marion's are: he's undersized, very athletically gifted, and has a good point guard, really two good point guards to play with. Also like Marion, he has no shooting form, no shot at all, not very skill at anything besides defense and jumping, and is irrelevant in the crunch time of games. I mean ya'll do know Charlotte started playing him at the power forward right? that's why his rebounds/steals/blocks are as high as they are. Ya'll do know the reason why he got as much playing time as he did was b/c Okafor and May missed most of the season due to injuries right. If all teams played their athletic 3's at the 4, they're numbers would be about the same as Wallace's. There's a reason Charlotte won't offer him a lot of money, and it's not necessarily b/c they're cheap.

if you are seriously comparing him to shawn marion(at worst a top 15 player in the nba) and using that as a negative im not sure what to say. As for the if anyone put their athletic 3s at the 4, if that were true, dont you think more people would do it? As for the shooting, that would be a concern, but josh has regressed SO much defensively that that is a huge gap now. About equivalent to the difference in their shooting. Josh isnt a good defender anymore guys. Hes not a liability on that end or anything but its not a strength like so many seem to think and there isnt a single thing to support the idea that it is...

Underdog · 09-25-2006, 09:11 AM

I'll take Josh over Wallace at this point, thank you... (if nothing else, because he's established chemistry with our core - talent debate aside...)

Five-ofan · 09-25-2006, 09:36 AM

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Originally Posted by Underdog

I'll take Josh over Wallace at this point, thank you... (if nothing else, because he's established chemistry with our core - talent debate aside...)

That is a legit concern along with the shooting...

Nash13 · 09-25-2006, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

if you are seriously comparing him to shawn marion(at worst a top 15 player in the nba) and using that as a negative im not sure what to say.

Everything i said about both players are true. Of course Marion is better at what he does, but the style in which they play isn't that different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

As for the if anyone put their athletic 3s at the 4, if that were true, dont you think more people would do it?

No for four reasons:

1. It's not their natural position (like Wallace)

2. They already have a good PF (like Dallas)

3. Their teams in general don't play good defense (like Pheonix)

4. They're not a very good team (like Charlotte)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

As for the shooting, that would be a concern, but josh has regressed SO much defensively that that is a huge gap now. About equivalent to the difference in their shooting. Josh isnt a good defender anymore guys. Hes not a liability on that end or anything but its not a strength like so many seem to think and there isnt a single thing to support the idea that it is...

Josh is a good defender, not a great one. Your underrating for Josh has just gone past the point of ridiculous. Even by your standards, Wallace's shooting isn't equivalent to Josh's defense b/c his shooting is a huge liability. Wallace is the prime example of what happens when you put a decent player on a bad team. He hasn't proven himself at all.

WurzburgBorn · 09-25-2006, 12:02 PM

Wallace and Howard are both pretty good players. They bring slightly different skill sets to the table. I think I'd rather have Howard on my team, but it's not an easy call.

Five-ofan · 09-25-2006, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash13

Everything i said about both players are true. Of course Marion is better at what he does, but the style in which they play isn't that different.

No for four reasons:

1. It's not their natural position (like Wallace)

2. They already have a good PF (like Dallas)

3. Their teams in general don't play good defense (like Pheonix)

4. They're not a very good team (like Charlotte)

Josh is a good defender, not a great one. Your underrating for Josh has just gone past the point of ridiculous. Even by your standards, Wallace's shooting isn't equivalent to Josh's defense b/c his shooting is a huge liability. Wallace is the prime example of what happens when you put a decent player on a bad team. He hasn't proven himself at all.

Phoenix was VERY good defensively until Thomas got hurt. Your number 1 reason goes against your original point, and the teams with a pf anywhere near as good as dirk are SA, LA, Minnesotta, crickets... SInce Charlotte did it, I dont understand why not being a good team has to do with anything and the other reasons aside from number 2 just dont make any sense and number 2 is limited to at most 10 teams one of which is phoenix who has already done it.

as for the differences in their shooting and defenses, Wallace is a great defender and josh is slightly above average. Josh is a slightly above average shooter and Wallace is horrible. They roughly balance out, unless you are trying to tell me that you think Josh howard is a GREAT shooter in which case I will laugh and Yes i know his 3pt percentage from last year.

Five-ofan · 09-25-2006, 12:24 PM

Let me add, the simplest thing, and the option I prefer would be for Josh to accept a 5 year 42 million dollar contract or less and I would be thrilled and be done with it. I wouldnt trade him for Wallace unless it became clear/likely that Josh wasnt going to be resigned. I think he is a good fit for this team but he is by no means irreplaceable so if he thinks he is gonna get more than that and wants to test the market, im just expressing an alternative that could actually be a positive but unless Josh forces it, Id rather just keep the core the way it is unless a no brainer for a legit second star comes along.

If josh can get more money than that, good for him and I dont begrudge him at all trying to get everything he can but that doesnt necesarrily mean the mavs should pay that if they can get a comparable alternative cheaper...

Nash13 · 09-25-2006, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Phoenix was VERY good defensively until Thomas got hurt. Your number 1 reason goes against your original point, and the teams with a pf anywhere near as good as dirk are SA, LA, Minnesotta, crickets... SInce Charlotte did it, I dont understand why not being a good team has to do with anything and the other reasons aside from number 2 just dont make any sense and number 2 is limited to at most 10 teams one of which is phoenix who has already done it.

As to my first reason, i think playing your natural position makes perfect sense. My third reason is true. Teams that go small generally don't play all that great on the defensive end i.e. Pheonix, Philly, New York, Atlanta, Charlotte, Dallas of old. And my fouth reason goes along with the fact that Charlotte, a team that knew they were going nowhere, experimented with him at Power forward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

as for the differences in their shooting and defenses, Wallace is a great defender and josh is slightly above average. Josh is a slightly above average shooter and Wallace is horrible. They roughly balance out, unless you are trying to tell me that you think Josh howard is a GREAT shooter in which case I will laugh and Yes i know his 3pt percentage from last year.

Now you come from saying Josh isn't good to slightly above average on defense. But anyways, it's not just shooting, Josh has more offensive moves. And shooting counts for a whole lot when you're on one of the top 10 offenses in the League.

Honestly 5-0, if we traded Josh for Wallace straight up, you're seriously telling me Dallas will be better b/c of it?

Five-ofan · 09-25-2006, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash13

As to my first reason, i think playing your natural position makes perfect sense. My third reason is true. Teams that go small generally don't play all that great on the defensive end i.e. Pheonix, Philly, New York, Atlanta, Charlotte, Dallas of old. And my fouth reason goes along with the fact that Charlotte, a team that knew they were going nowhere, experimented with him at Power forward.

Now you come from saying Josh isn't good to slightly above average on defense. But anyways, it's not just shooting, Josh has more offensive moves. And shooting counts for a whole lot when you're on one of the top 10 offenses in the League.

Honestly 5-0, if we traded Josh for Wallace straight up, you're seriously telling me Dallas will be better b/c of it?

I think its entirely possible but I dont think its worth the risk if Josh will sign a reasonable contract.(See my last post). In a vacuum I think Wallace is better and Im not really sure its all that close but games arent played in a vacuum and on a team with as little shooting as dallas, a respectable shooter such as josh does have added value. Erica, if you read this, we still disagree about the shooting, but you are more than welcome to your opinion about the shooting... In short, I think its possible wallace could make the mavs better but since I think they are already the best team in the nba, its not worth the risk unless Josh forces the issue...

Im still not seeing your point on the phoenix thing, until kurt thomas got hurt, they were great defensively, better than the mavs...

Tokey41 · 09-25-2006, 03:06 PM

Its safer to keep Josh, Dirk himself has said the guy compliments him well and its true, we are just lucky the do different things very well. Wallace while way underated wouldn't necessarily be better for Dallas, but im all for getting younger... they are so similar but since Josh has been here and proven he can win a winner its a no brainer at this point. If we have a crappy record for some reason near the trade deadline...

But really we wouldnt do that, so do you think Charlotte would? I mean Wallace is injury prone, put up good numbers on a bad team (beware) when he was healthy, and be a pretty big change to our chemistry. Josh is just a safer bet right now for us, we can all agree on that. Number one in steals and two blocks? That would impress me if he hadn't been so banged up.

Five-ofan · 09-25-2006, 03:13 PM

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Originally Posted by Tokey41

I mean Wallace is injury prone,

Doesnt need to be used as a reason to pick Josh over anyone. Last time I checked, Josh isnt exactly Mr. Durable himself.

jleefilled · 09-25-2006, 05:49 PM

Does Wallace's handles compare favorably to Howard's? That would be the big question to me.

Five-ofan · 09-25-2006, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleefilled

Does Wallace's handles compare favorably to Howard's? That would be the big question to me.

They are about even. Wallace can get to the rim...

jleefilled · 09-25-2006, 05:52 PM

Thanks 5-0.

The other question I have -- I'm not sure if this has been brought up -- can Wallace defend the quicker 1's and 2's?

Locked_Up_Tonight · 09-25-2006, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Does Wallace's handles compare favorably to Howard's? That would be the big question to me.

Does anyone know if Gerald Wallace refuses to give up the ball on a 3 on 1 fastbreak, instead taking it the length of the court, get fouled and ultimately brick one of the two free throws?

That utter display of low basketball iq is enough to just let Howard walk.

Five-ofan · 09-25-2006, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleefilled

Thanks 5-0.

The other question I have -- I'm not sure if this has been brought up -- can Wallace defend the quicker 1's and 2's?

2s yes, Thats actually what Charlotte is planning to do(move him to the 2 with Morrison playing the 3), Im a big wallace fan, have liked him since he was in Sac. I dont think he would do to well guarding 1s but he is EXTREMELY athletic so its possible.

A couple of highlight tapes, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KZTUxwIFmY watch till the end of it, the block fall down, block sequence midway through is nice and the block on thomas is just filthy..

Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_DQmQnC76A

Granted those are highlight tapes so they look better than he normally does but a nice watch anyway...

The dunk on AK in the second one is nice, takes him off the dribble, spins and dunks on him..

StackAttack · 09-25-2006, 05:59 PM

Not sure what your point guard has to do with you averaging 2 blocks and 2 steals a game.

jleefilled · 09-25-2006, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

2s yes, Thats actually what Charlotte is planning to do(move him to the 2 with Morrison playing the 3), Im a big wallace fan, have liked him since he was in Sac. I dont think he would do to well guarding 1s but he is EXTREMELY athletic so its possible.

Thanks again, 5-0. I'll try to start playing more attention to Wallace in the future. I'm interested in seeing how this kid compares to Josh. The reason I asked those questions specifically -- and I don't if this has been mentioned already -- is because from what I remember about Wallace, he doesn't seem to be the same "type" of player Josh is. Josh has always seemed to be a 2/3 while Wallace seemed to be more geared to be 3/4 kind of player.

Five-ofan · 09-25-2006, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleefilled

Thanks again, 5-0. I'll try to start playing more attention to Wallace in the future. I'm interested in seeing how this kid compares to Josh. The reason I asked those questions specifically -- and I don't if this has been mentioned already -- is because from what I remember about Wallace, he doesn't seem to be the same "type" of player Josh is. Josh has always seemed to be a 2/3 while Wallace seemed to be more geared to be 3/4 kind of player.

He was more of a 3/4 and still probably should be but its because he cant shoot not because of his handles or quickness... You can see from a few of those highlights that his handles are fine. Specifically the move on duncan. Also, and this you need to see him in games and not highlights to see because highlights dont show this, he is the Anti Marquis Daniels in that he has a great touch near the basket and makes almost all of his layups. Its why he shot almost 53% last year. Yes he gets alot of alley-oops but its also because he "makes the easy ones"

also not to be partisan, while looking at those i noticed that he was on the receiving end of one of the best posterizations a year ago but that happens to all shot blockers eventually. It reminded me what a waste of talent deshawn stevenson is though...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEfx2WpGLek

Nash13 · 09-26-2006, 01:03 PM

Wallace, like a lot of people, look better in a 2 minute highlight reel.

The truth about this guy is his handles are inconsistent. In our isolation offense, that's going to be important. Like it or not, Josh is our best 2/3 player that can attack the basket on the dribble. Like i mentioned before, he benefits from having Brevin and Felton to set him up for some easy points; that won't happen that often in Dallas. Another thing is come playoff time when teams start to play zone or just back off him, they're pretty much are going to take him out of the game. I think he'd be great as a backup 3/4 player, but that's pretty much it.