Dampier - 73 million, Devin Harris...

[madape]

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
"Why does Dampier have to be evaulated by his numbers? This isn't fantasy basketball. "

Apparently the guy you are talking with doesnt understand real hoops. It is not a bunch of stats added together, and a bunch of +/- numbers, and a bunch of "per-48 mins" calculations, and the like. Little things sometimes are more important than big things. The effect you have on others can be huge but almost immeasurable. The things you mention are crucial. And how about this one: "do you take the pounding, where a player like Dirk is freed up to run and score and board? What number covers that?"

The thing I notice is that the Mavs arent that "soft in the middle" team any more. Unless Dampier is hurt, that is, and then they look a lot like last year. That tells me eloquently just how valuable he is. Benga, Pavel, and Booth arent even in the same ballpark - but then again, the guy who touts them as the better answer to the Mavs needs at center also thinks that Najera and Laettner were extremely valuable players. Good grief. Such worthless analysis tells me why he doesnt see the value of Damp, who IS incredibly valuable. He just doesnt know how hoops.

Does Damp also toss up those glittery stats? Nope. And who cares (other than some fantasy geek-a-zoid). The Mavs finally have a center who makes a difference.

Analysis without statistical support is subjective nonsense. When making an argument, it is preferable to support your position with factual evidence, not opinion and heresay. Why should I value your subjective analysis over what I personally can see on the court AND what I can see statitically supported? If you are really trying to convince someone that this guy is worth something more than a mid level salary, you need to prove to me that the guy is more than what he appears to be.. and crap statements that amount to "He's good and you are stupid and don't know hoops because I said so" don't fly in my book. Your arguments thus far have been unsupported and worthless. And for every "who takes the pounding?" question, I can counter with "who clogs up the lane for cutters and slashers" retort. Basically it all boils down to how well the team plays when a certain player is on the court.

Because of that, you can argue that a player's value should be measured by something other than simple points and rebounds.. and in the case of Dampier they BETTER, becuase his stats aren't that good. What's harder to do is to argue against the plus minus differential, which is a comparison of the team's production when a player is on the court versus when he's off. In my mind, that's the best measure of a player.. especially to measure someone deemed to be a complementary player, which is what appears to be the fasionable method to explain away Dampier's mediocre numbers.

However, in this case, those statistics plainly show that Dampier flat out fails to help this team. In fact, they show that he hurts it on average. Now I'll admit that Dampier's had a stretch of two better-than-average games during which his team played better with him than without him. But those two games were preceded by a greater number of games in which the team played better when he was on the bench. When aggregated, the result is negative. On average the Mavericks are better off with Dampier on the bench than they are with him in the game. That is an objective FACT that you can't argue with. You also can't argue with the objective fact that even last year, a year that appears on the surface so uncharacteristically good for Dampier in respect to his career averages that it borders on unbeleivable, he failed to help his team. Once again, the FACT is that the Warriors played better without Dampier than they did with him. What we're seeing this year out of Dampier isn't just a guy trying to fit into a new team.. it's an eight year veteran doing what he's done his entire career... which is not much.

Ignoring such overwhelming statistical evidence of Dampier's minimal value is indicative of a person with extreme bias. Now I know that this is a fan site and as such all of it's members are required to toe the company line and proclaim that every one of our players is the greatest thing since sliced bread. But eventually optimism must succumb to realism. Consider me the voice of reason. We've had better centers than Dampier on this team during the last five years. Some of them are still on the roster. Dampier is NOT our savior. He's our curse. We'd be better off if Cuban, when presented with the opportunity of a trade with Golden State, would have dismissed Dampier as nothing more than a "walking turd" (which by the way he did indirectly at times prior to trading for him).

[vinnieponte]

madape your one post shy of giving bradley a bj, jesus man give it up

[kg_veteran]

Although just watching, I still don't see the Booth fit now. How do you think this team would do with Booth gone, and his minutes going to Bradley and Benga?

They'd probably be fine, assuming that Bradley actually played some.

I don't think Benga should be in the discussion for this year. I'd like to see him get SOME playing time to get his feet wet, but watching him makes it clear that he's still at least a year away from being a rotation player.

Right now, if Nelson would learn how to play Bradley 12-20 min a night, with Damp getting close to 30, and Benga getting the rest, I think they would be better off.

My preference would be to play Dampier 30-33 minutes per game and play Shawn 15-18 minutes per game as the backup. That said, I can see the value of having Booth available to rotate with Shawn at the backup slot, because Booth is more agile than Shawn and matches up better with certain players than Shawn does.

I still think Nelson should quit dreaming of Dirk being his center, and keep him away from there. IMO, Dirk has played way to much center already this year, and any time Henderson is in, then Dirk is the Center. I don't mind the Dirk, Henderson, Damp/Bradley lineup, but the Howard, Henderson, Dirk lineup needs to be forgotten about.

Been debating this over at LMF some. Dirk should not be the last line of defense, which he is when Henderson is in the game with him. I don't have a problem with *occasional* use of Dirk at center, especially if we went to a pressing, trapping lineup with Howard at PF. But that should only happen as a "changeup pitch", not for an extended period of time. When you play that way for too long, it gets exposed.

Also, saying that it's okay to *occasionally* play Dirk at center is like saying it's okay for an alcoholic to *occasionally* take a drink. Both are too tempting to the alcoholic.

[madape]

Originally posted by: vinnieponte
madape your one post shy of giving bradley a bj, jesus man give it up

.. sorry, the line to suck off Dampier was too long.

[EricaLubarsky]

Booth is primarily a backup for Dirk. I can see Damp and Booth playing simultaneously. Booth is a better C than a PF, but with Damp and Bradley on contract, there really isnt a reason to have him playing center.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: madape

.. sorry, the line to suck off Dampier was too long.

I laughed out loud when I read that one.

[dalmations202]

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Booth is primarily a backup for Dirk. I can see Damp and Booth playing simultaneously. Booth is a better C than a PF, but with Damp and Bradley on contract, there really isnt a reason to have him playing center.

EL, I agree. But Henderson is getting the backup PF minutes. That leaves Booth getting strange minutes with strange lineups, that can't defend nor play offense w/o Dirk or Fin.

I have just seen some strange lineups with Dirk on the bench, where Booth has come in, and the offense is gone, and the defense is gone, and I am left scratching my head as to what position Nellie is trying to put him in. I know Cal isn't Dirk, but Nellie really needs to put him in a position to succeed, and I haven't seen that yet.

[sike]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

I laughed out loud when I read that one.

I cringed.

[kg_veteran]

On average the Mavericks are better off with Dampier on the bench than they are with him in the game. That is an objective FACT that you can't argue with.

It's pretty early to be touting +/- stats, especially with the injuries the team has had. Nonetheless, even if you want to look at +/- stats, I can look at them and see that all of the most commonly used 5-man units the Mavericks have which include Dampier have a positive +/- number.

[Poindexter Einstein]

Originally posted by: vinnieponte
madape your one post shy of giving bradley a bj, jesus man give it up

I laughed and almost fell off my chair at this one. Line of the week.


MAD - You ask what sort of analysis I use. I suspect it doesnt matter what I offer - because you pretty much ignore the ones others have given. But my analysis is not based on blind ostrich-like fandom, regardless of how you want to say otherwise.

Here are the things I see ...
1. I see the defense, and the defensive stats this year. Opp FG% and 3-Pt %. And even without looking at the stats, the difference is noticeable. I see other teams who cant drive the lane and perform the layup drill like in prior years. Opp's pts on layups and dunks is halved.
2. I see the difference in the defense when Damp is in the lineup, and not. The games where he was out were almost identical, in look and stats, to last year. He returns, and it swings back again. It is noticed easily.
3. You say that he made no difference in GS, but I dont agree. The GS fans definitely bash him, but his loss is the main difference in that team - they have in essence even more talent at other positions - and they have sunk way down. Some of the more hardcore GS fans that I have talked with are already beginning to reassesss and say "wow, maybe we were way wrong" re the value of Dampier. The GS fans bashed him for what he didnt do, and lost sight of what he did well. His stat line looks pedestrian at times, but he impacts a game in a significant way.

You can sit and focus on games where the stats arent as good, or whatever. He is like all players, some games will be better than others. But he has already made a huge difference in the whole fabric of this team, and they are much better for it. They are now able to win games with their defense.

[sike]

It's pretty early to be touting +/- stats

its at least too early to use them in argumentation to make definitive and absolute statements about a certain player...
Remember that a few of those games Damp was struggling with a hip injury. The +/- does not take that into account, but any reasonable fan will.

[Dooby]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

It's pretty early to be touting +/- stats, especially with the injuries the team has had. Nonetheless, even if you want to look at +/- stats, I can look at them and see that all of the most commonly used 5-man units the Mavericks have which include Dampier have a positive +/- number.

No. No. That not true! That's impossible!!!

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Dooby

No. No. That not true! That's impossible!!!

Genius.

[dalmations202]

They are now able to win games with their defense.

I was with you until this point. They still better have a better than average offense or they still lose. In fact, they have lost several games recently when they allowed less than 100 pts, but couldn't put points on the board.

[sike]

since this is the most recent thread with Shawn Bradley implications, I thought it might be interesting to see what other centers around the league think of Shawn...

The 6-foot-10 Jackson, who played at Roman Catholic High and Temple University, has shown a warrior mentality in challenging other centers, most bigger than he is.
"If I get the ball near the basket, I'm going right up with it," he said. "I don't care if it's Shawn Bradley or Wilt Chamberlain - that's my game."

I read this as Marc Jackson saying he'll battle the weak and the powerful alike....just one more player giving Shawn no respect.

here

[Dooby]

Raef, whom Madape thought so highly of early in the season to devote a thread to him here, has a +/- of -13.2, which is worse than Dampier. And the incredibly overpaid Dampier makes $2M less than Raef does this year.

I used to think the Madape Bradley obsession was a bit. And then I realized he was serious. Now, I am again begining to wonder if it is a bit.

It would be funny if it weren't so predictable. No, wait. It is still funny.

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally posted by: sike
since this is the most recent thread with Shawn Bradley implications, I thought it might be interesting to see what other centers around the league think of Shawn...

I read this as Marc Jackson saying he'll battle the weak and the powerful alike....just one more player giving Shawn no respect.

here

Oddly, to ME this sounds like he's EQUATING Mantis and Dipper. Oddly indeed.

[rakesh.s]

Originally posted by: Max Power

Nash has played a LOT better than I expected in Phoenix. But how much of that is the fact that he felt "disrespected" by Cuban's opinion that Nash wouldn't hold up?

I know for a fact that when Nash played here he didn't have the muscle tone that he has now. In one of the interviews Nash said he started working out to prove his detractors (Cuban) wrong. Would Nash have put the same effort into building his body into a better NBA body if he had stayed here? Somehow I doubt it.

I think the nash situation has more to do with the system there being even more open than it was in dallas...in dallas it was pick and roll and find dirk on the mismatch

in phoenix, it is run run run..with amare and marion on the wings..and obviously all the players with their athleticism and nash's passing ability are thriving..

[sike]

Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC

Oddly, to ME this sounds like he's EQUATING Mantis and Dipper. Oddly indeed.

I know it can be interpreted that way...but I find that hard to believe...I think it is meant to say: "I don't care the level of competition, I play my game my way!"
it is open for debate though [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[chumdawg]

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein

3. You say that he made no difference in GS, but I dont agree. The GS fans definitely bash him, but his loss is the main difference in that team - they have in essence even more talent at other positions - and they have sunk way down. Some of the more hardcore GS fans that I have talked with are already beginning to reassesss and say "wow, maybe we were way wrong" re the value of Dampier. The GS fans bashed him for what he didnt do, and lost sight of what he did well. His stat line looks pedestrian at times, but he impacts a game in a significant way.

This is a salient observation, and one that deserves closer study. Granted the season is still a pup, but here are some comparisons between this year's Warriors bunch and last year's:

This year they are getting outrebounded 43.3 to 47.8.
Last year they outrebounded opponents 43.1 to 42.8.

This year they are allowing opponents a 45.9 FG percentage and converting at 39.0% themselves.
Last year they allowed opponents a 44.5 FG percentage and converted at 44.2% themselves.

This year they are scoring 88.2 points per game and allowing 95.6 points.
Last year they scored 93.3 points per game and allowed 94.0.

This year through 13 games they are 3-10.
Last year through 13 games they were 6-7.

Adonal Foyle, whom the Warriors lavished money upon--and who, to hear him tell it, was coveted by countless other teams--is not enjoying any improvement over last year, despite being free from the Big Dump's shadow.

Interesting comparison indeed.

[bernardos70]

I think we should have to pay to read chumdawg's posts. Nice job chum!

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: Dooby
Raef, whom Madape thought so highly of early in the season to devote a thread to him here, has a +/- of -13.2, which is worse than Dampier. And the incredibly overpaid Dampier makes $2M less than Raef does this year.

I used to think the Madape Bradley obsession was a bit. And then I realized he was serious. Now, I am again begining to wonder if it is a bit.

It would be funny if it weren't so predictable. No, wait. It is still funny.

I know we aren't talking about devin but his +/- is -14.2...

[bloodyhell]

>mad ape wrote:
>"8.9 points..... 2 first round draft picks
7.2 rebounds.... the rights to Eduardo Najera and Christian Laettner
Cap crippling 7 year contract....$73 million bucks

>Milking a bonehead owner dry while putting up Raef LaFrenz like numbers.... WORTHLESS "



If dampier starts putting up better numbers on defense and gets easier baskets, i'll say it was worth it. However I don't think he's lived up to his g.s. potential thus far. And quite honestly he seems cold and out of it, at times. Maybe he's just a bit bewildered being on a new team? Or perhaps there's too much pressure?

He DOES need to step it up so he dosen't have lafrentz type numbers.

We need more from him.

[Poindexter Einstein]

"quite honestly he seems cold and out of it, at times"

This and comments like it get tossed in at times. And it is likely part of what may drive the anti-Damp people - he often doesnt look like he is involved.

I agree that he SEEMS this way, but I think it is a wrong conclusion. I just think that is his nature - he is quiet, almost shy, very internal. He gives the appearance of being lost in another world - but he isnt.

On the court, it comes off as lack of intensity. But I really believe it is all an unintentional mask, that arises out of his natural demeanor. He is just "going about his business" and people get the wrong idea of what is going on in his head.
So people comment that he is cold, he is out of it, he isnt trying, and so on. I can see why GS fans ragged on him that he is lazy, etc - but his work ethic is incredible according to his teammates and coaches, so the fans are getting a wrong impression somewhere.

I think it is from his demeanor. When you play low post, you are out of the offensive flow at times, waiting for things to develop. You can do very little (other than stand there) in many sets when you are on the off side from the ball. You come down the floor, a side is cleared out for Dirk or Stack or whoever, they take a shot, and you dont have a shot at a rebound, and it looks like you are doing nothing. Put that alongside his demeanor, and it is easy to see why some would think "he doesnt try hard."

[SeriousSummer]

Oddly, to ME this sounds like he's EQUATING Mantis and Dipper. Oddly indeed.

Actually, now that Wilt's been dead awhile I think the Mantis is easily his equal.

[mcsluggo]

Originally posted by: Dooby
Raef, whom Madape thought so highly of early in the season to devote a thread to him here, has a +/- of -13.2, which is worse than Dampier. And the incredibly overpaid Dampier makes $2M less than Raef does this year.

I used to think the Madape Bradley obsession was a bit. And then I realized he was serious. Now, I am again begining to wonder if it is a bit.

It would be funny if it weren't so predictable. No, wait. It is still funny.

You are correct, sir.

In at least one area... LaFrenz's contract was/is one of the single worst in the history of the NBA. Using it as a yardstick to imply that another contract isn't bad is like trying to say your sister is pretty by comparing her to Popeye Jones.

[sike]

Originally posted by: SeriousSummer

Actually, now that Wilt's been dead awhile I think the Mantis is easily his equal.

underrated line

[bloodyhell]

.

[G-Man]

Originally posted by: sike

Actually, now that Wilt's been dead awhile I think the Mantis is easily his equal.

They are certainly equal when it comes to jumping, but Wilt is still less likely to turn the ball over. And its less embarrassing to get dunked on when you are a dead stiff, as opposed to a live one.