Rockets v. Mavs Post Game Thread

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Now you're sounding silly. Anthony Johnson is known as one of the better backup PG's in the league. He started the majority of the season last year. Yes he's been frustrating here, but I assure you there are a ton of teams that would like to have him. He still makes positive contributions.

And as much as Stack drives me crazy, he is a pretty big luxury to have coming off the bench about 75% of the time. Yes the other 25% is infuriating, but he brings a very real contribution.

I'm not one of these people that thinks our bench could win games on its own or anything. But to come them an average bench is just silly, especially when every opposing fan out there comes on this board and raves about how deep we are.

Im not gonna use the +/- meter on Aj because that just isnt fair because he plays behind 2 really good pgs and we all know he isnt remotely close to the other 2. that said, do you realize the mavs have been outscored by nearly 7ppg when hes on the court this year? that is a huge differential and almost impossible to fathom with as much talent as is in the starting lineup.

about the bench, the fact that 2 of the players are positive and 1 is even isnt horrible. we only play 4 1/2 bench players. 3 of them not being negative is decent especially since it is pretty clear to me we are phasing the half player out because of how bad he is and going to a 9 man rotation. then when you also factor in that it looks like we might be phasing diop out to, the mavs are going to a very very solid 8 man rotation. I think that that team can win and i think it will win. however a team that looks at least to me to be moving in the direction of only using 3 bench players shouldnt be considered amazingly deep as some of you seem to think it is. its just that so far the amazingly bad play of ac and aj has made up for the very solid play of the top of the bench.

[Male30Dan]

I will just say this. I am VERY VERY happy with our bench, and the number of teams with a bench I would take over ours can be counted on one finger.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

We're clearly watching two different games then. TMac was noticeably agitated at times with the physicality of Buck's play.

he was clearly agitated and then he realized the backdoor cut was wide open and went and made a layup. then buck got taken off him, the mavs started blitzing pick and rolls and george played great D on him and he went cold.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Im not gonna use the +/- meter on Aj because that just isnt fair because he plays behind 2 really good pgs and we all know he isnt remotely close to the other 2. that said, do you realize the mavs have been outscored by nearly 7ppg when hes on the court this year? that is a huge differential and almost impossible to fathom with as much talent as is in the starting lineup.

about the bench, the fact that 2 of the players are positive and 1 is even isnt horrible. we only play 4 1/2 bench players. 3 of them not being negative is decent especially since it is pretty clear to me we are phasing the half player out because of how bad he is and going to a 9 man rotation. then when you also factor in that it looks like we might be phasing diop out to, the mavs are going to a very very solid 8 man rotation. I think that that team can win and i think it will win. however a team that looks at least to me to be moving in the direction of only using 3 bench players shouldnt be considered amazingly deep as some of you seem to think it is.

AJ's played a lot of garbage time this year, when he's out there with Benga, Croshere, etc, and they're up by 20. He hasn't played in enough meaningful games to have a stat like that be meaningful, imo.

Now, I'm not saying he's been great for us. He hasn't. But I think he still has something to offer. He could just still be adjusting to the system. There's a reason the guy has been one of the better thought of backups in the league over the past 5 years.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by thereaper

If I'm Houston, I'm trading T-Mac while I still can. Get VC or someone who isn't a twitch away from being out for months at a time. It's bad enough you have to worry about Yao making it through a season (Gheorghe Muresan anyone?) but you can't have BOTH your star players being so fragile.

Me too..he's done. It sounds crazy when he's shooting his brains out, but if you could get a stud guy for him I do it.

[Five-ofan]

i will say it again, bench of devean george, buck and stack is a solid 8 man rotation when paired with the starters but still an 8 man rotation isnt that deep. however george, buck, stack, aj, ac, diop? Bad to average bench because of the crappiness of aj and ac. what has happened is that the mavs have become the exact opposite of what they used to be, they have good useful depth but very little end of the bench depth and im fine with it except for the fact that if they play the end of the bench depth it ends up cancelling out the useful depth at the top of the bench.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

AJ's played a lot of garbage time this year, when he's out there with Benga, Croshere, etc, and they're up by 20. He hasn't played in enough meaningful games to have a stat like that be meaningful, imo.

Now, I'm not saying he's been great for us. He hasn't. But I think he still has something to offer. He could just still be adjusting to the system. There's a reason the guy has been one of the better thought of backups in the league over the past 5 years.

i thought the same thing long before i ever looked at his plus/minus numbers. he has been utterly terrible this year and his horribleness has negated the solid contributions of devean and stack.

[Male30Dan]

So name the teams with a bench you would trade with the Mavs for. Don't forget the defensive mentality we have when choosing. Don't pick a bench with bums that can shoot 49 percent but allow 55 percent shooting against them.

[nashtymavsfan13]

After reading both your guys' arguments I still feel the Mavs have an above average bench. It is definetly not an average bench, I'd say it's easily top 10. I feel it does a very good job in doing what it's asked to do.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

i dont want to be a downer but the mavs bench and devean george are both begining to get vastly overrated. the mavs have a great starting 5 and an average bench. the bench was great tonight but this was by no way shape or form a normal game for them.

Didn't you say this last year as well 5-0? I'm not disagreeing with you but it's pretty common of other teams to say it's depth that lost the game for them which for this team I don't agree. Last year with devin, keith, damp, marquis, stackhouse I thought they were much deeper than this year, however they were different deep.

This team will shoot more 3's all the way around and that's what they wanted. Last year the second group off the bench, except for keith couldn't shoot a 3 to save their lives.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Male23Dan

So name the teams with a bench you would trade with the Mavs for. Don't forget the defensive mentality we have when choosing. Don't pick a bench with bums that can shoot 49 percent but allow 55 percent shooting against them.

I would love to see the answer to this as well.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

today yes, not so much the rest of the season. Who on the bench do you guys honestly trust?

AJ-garbage
AC-Garbage

10th, 11th man on the team. Why even include them?

george-decent- you realize hes shooting 38% though right? He does bring good D but hes not ron artest either.

He's not artest thank goodness. He's just what we need however a defender who the other team can't leave alone. Not great but pretty good defender. Comparing him to Artest is pretty silly. He's a pretty stout defender off the bench it seems to me.

Buckner-decent D, not completely horrible shooter but overall not that good

Another guy who you are trying to compare to a starter it seems. He's not, he's got to go out there and grab/scrap/hustle.

I guess the bottom line is I don't think this bench is as good offensively at ALL as last year but they seem to have different offensive skill sets, more outside shooting.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by Male23Dan

So name the teams with a bench you would trade with the Mavs for. Don't forget the defensive mentality we have when choosing. Don't pick a bench with bums that can shoot 49 percent but allow 55 percent shooting against them.

depends on what we are asking for, a team that has a 10 man rotation like the ones the mavs have been playing or one that has an 8 man rotation like the one they are going to? With the 8 man rotation i think we have a very solid bench like i said earlier because you dont have the crappiness of aj and AC dragging down the rest of the bench, with the 10 man bench i would take several teams bench over ours. Let me know and ill tell you who i would take. Ill tell you that in the 8 man rotation i would expect the mavs to be top 5-10.


Dude yes i said something similar last year, i said the mavs had an illusion of depth because they had 2 starters on the bench which turned out to be true.

[Five-ofan]

I included ac and aj because do to how utterly horrible they have been, their insignifigant minutes have still mattered.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I guess the bottom line is I don't think this bench is as good offensively at ALL as last year but they seem to have different offensive skill sets, more outside shooting.

On the offensive thing, keep in mind we took our best bench offensive player, Devin, and put him into the starting lineup.

Put Buck in the starting lineup, and put Devin on the bench this year. Then how does our bench's offense compare to last year's?

DA vs AJ - Offensively? AJ's a better player, at least better than the DA we had here.

Cro vs KVH - So far Cro's been awful, but KVH was equally pitifual by the end of last season.

Buckner vs Griff - Much better offensively. Shooting percentage won't back it up, because Griff was so selective, but Buck has to be respected somewhat at the 3pt line.

George vs Daniels - Please. What a huge, huge upgrade.

Once you make the adjustment for the move of Devin into the starting lineup, I think this year's bench is a clear improvement, both offensively and devensively.

[Male30Dan]

Lets go both. I want to know the 4-9 teams that you think are better than our much played 8 man rotation and then the 10-30 teams with a better overall bench than ours. Again, remember our defensive mentality and our need for 3pt shooting. Have at it and be very specific. Know I will be with your responses.

[Five-ofan]

for benches i would take, Phoenix in either case, the bulls in either case, the clips in either case, the spurs in the 10 man case not so much in the 8 man case, maybe the pacers in the 10 man thing and definitely not in the 8. not sure who else off the top of my head. Id be shocked if there is another bench noticeably better than the mavs but among the good teams i doubt seriously there are many teams that are noticeable worse either. So by my count with the 10 man rotation which is what i complained about, the mavs have roughly the 5th or 6th best bench at best which out of 16 playoffs teams means they are about in the top 3rd of playoff teams. wohoooooooooooooo go bench.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

for benches i would take, Phoenix in either case, the bulls in either case, the clips in either case, the spurs in the 10 man case not so much in the 8 man case, maybe the pacers in the 10 man thing and definitely not in the 8. not sure who else off the top of my head. Id be shocked if there is another bench noticeably better than the mavs but among the good teams i doubt seriously there are many teams that are noticeable worse either. So by my count with the 10 man rotation which is what i complained about, the mavs have roughly the 5th or 6th best bench at best which out of 16 playoffs teams means they are about in the top 3rd of playoff teams. wohoooooooooooooo go bench.

Ok, without even arguing over your picks for better benches, you just totally twisted the argument. You just stated that the Mavs had roughly the 5th or 6th best 10 man bench in the league.

Guess what? That's ELITE!

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by Male23Dan

Lets go both. I want to know the 4-9 teams that you think are better than our much played 8 man rotation and then the 10-30 teams with a better overall bench than ours. Again, remember our defensive mentality and our need for 3pt shooting. Have at it and be very specific. Know I will be with your responses.

i just did those, i dont think there are that many teams better than the mavs(meaning the 10-30). Obviously the mavs have better benches than the non playoff teams for the most part or the coaches on those teams are stupid. I dont think there are that many benches that are noticeably better but i think you would have just as hard of a time thinking of good teams with noticeably worse benches.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Ok, without even arguing over your picks for better benches, you just totally twisted the argument. You just stated that the Mavs had roughly the 5th or 6th best 10 man bench in the league.

Guess what? That's ELITE!

no, i said that there were only 4 or 5 clearly better benches. there are also probably 9-12 clearly worse benches and then they are just in a big pack with everyone else which yet again goes back to what i said which is that they are average. You guys are getting what i said wrong. I never said the bench was horrible. I said it was average. big difference.

[jthig32]

And by the way, the Suns only play an 8 man rotation. Not sure how you'd take their 10 man rotation over ours. I wouldn't even take their 8 man rotation over ours. James Jones?

[jthig32]

The Spurs' 10 man is also an odd choice. Finley, Horry and Udrih?

Brent Barry? Playing Avery's defense? Really?

You're not doing what Dan said, and applying it to how we play basketball. Brent Barry would have no place on this team, and we KNOW Finley didn't have a place.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

And by the way, the Suns only play an 8 man rotation. Not sure how you'd take their 10 man rotation over ours. I wouldn't even take their 8 man rotation over ours. James Jones?

is basically devean georges long lost brother. id take their ten man rotation because barbosa and diaw alone are so much better than our bench its not even funny.


On the overall thing, i will take the blame for this for not being clear enough in what i meant i guess. I never meant to make it sound like this bench is some horrible bench and that none of them should be in the nba or anything and when what i said was negative(it was meant to sound that way because you guys sounded like you though they were the best bench in the league or something) but i didnt balance it by saying but they are still ok or something like that because apparently you guys think that average means horrible...

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

The Spurs' 10 man is also an odd choice. Finley, Horry and Udrih?

theyve been successful.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

theyve been successful.

So have we.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

is basically devean georges long lost brother. id take their ten man rotation because barbosa and diaw alone are so much better than our bench its not even funny.


On the overall thing, i will take the blame for this for not being clear enough in what i meant i guess. I never meant to make it sound like this bench is some horrible bench and that none of them should be in the nba or anything and when what i said was negative(it was meant to sound that way because you guys sounded like you though they were the best bench in the league or something) but i didnt balance it by saying but they are still ok or something like that because apparently you guys think that average means horrible...

Diaw starts for Phoenix. Their 3 bench guys are Kurt Thomas, Barbosa and James Jones. And James Jones is maybe 1/4th the defender George is.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

So have we.

i meant the bench players. they have outscored opponents with all of those players in the game. something the mavs havent done. thats also a big reason that the spurs have a better MOV than the mavs.

[Male30Dan]

The Bulls look as if they have a great bench because they are all bench players minus 2, maybe 3 of them. Phoenix and SA both have solid benches and could both be considered superior without me really getting angry, but both could have arguments given. As far as Indiana is concerned, well, I just don't agree personally.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Diaw starts for Phoenix. Their 3 bench guys are Kurt Thomas, Barbosa and James Jones. And James Jones is maybe 1/4th the defender George is.

no james jones is every bit the defender george is, the argument to be made is that hes maybe 1/4 the shooter george is. thomas works too, hes solid enough.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

i meant the bench players. they have outscored opponents with all of those players in the game. something the mavs havent done. thats also a big reason that the spurs have a better MOV than the mavs.

Well, then I would ask you to head on over to spursreport and start up a discussion about them. Because they're ready to ride the three of them out on a rail.

[Five-ofan]

Anyway im off to sleep class in the morning, back to the matter at hand, great game, dirk is the mvp. Go mavs. Go Devean george. Go Buck. Hell even go Stackhouse. Prove me wrong. Be the best bench in the nba and lead us to the title. I really dont care if im wrong as long as we win.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

no james jones is every bit the defender george is, the argument to be made is that hes maybe 1/4 the shooter george is. thomas works too, hes solid enough.

I could not possibly disagree on James Jones more.

[Male30Dan]

Trying to lump our bench with 15 other teams is just a weak argument. Name the specific teams that have better benches. If you can only name 3-4 teams that you think are superior, that would put us at 4-5 in the league, a definite superior bench. If you can name others, feel free, and we can discuss. I just think you are on the "glass half empty" side here. You probably think we are all "glass half full" but I am asking you for specifics to back that up. I push defense because a guy like Diaw and guys like Finley, Udrih, and Barry aren't exactly shut down defenders. We really do have a bench that fits our team VERY well and I am very happy with them. At the end of the day, I don't know that I would trade them for any other bench in the league.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by Male23Dan

Trying to lump our bench with 15 other teams is just a weak argument. Name the specific teams that have better benches. If you can only name 3-4 teams that you think are superior, that would put us at 4-5 in the league, a definite superior bench. If you can name others, feel free, and we can discuss. I just think you are on the "glass half empty" side here. You probably think we are all "glass half full" but I am asking you for specifics to back that up. I push defense because a guy like Diaw and guys like Finley, Udrih, and Barry aren't exactly shut down defenders. We really do have a bench that fits our team VERY well and I am very happy with them. At the end of the day, I don't know that I would trade them for any other bench in the league.

fyi diaw is good defensively. Also stackhouse is straight up terrible defensively. as for me being glass is half empty right now yeah i am. I think you could argue the bench is anywhere from about 5-15 in the league and not be legitimately right either way. for now im just trying to keep everyone realistic and realize that they arent just flat out amazing like some of you seemed to be implying they were. as for the benches ill be honest i dont watch enough teams to tell you fully whether they are better and i dont want to just look at stats because they can be extremely deceiving. I will be doing exactly the opposite at some point in the next few weeks when george and stack are both going through slumps at the same time because both are pretty streaky.

right now im reminding you that there are only 12 or so benches that are clearly worse but when you guys get down on them(dont mean anyone in particular jsut the board as a whole) and i promise you that will happen because i remember most of you being at that point about 2 weeks ago, ill remind you that there are only about 5 benches that are clearly better. basically im just trying to keep it even kiel. Also on naming benches that are clearly better or worse is difficult, i doubt seriously you could name more than 12 benches that are clearly worse.

[Male30Dan]

Fair enough Five-O!

I just wanted to make my point initially, and that is that our bench suits our team VERY well, and that I would be hard pressed to truly prefer another teams bench over ours.

[Windmill360]

Bonzi this bonzi that. CMon... he's only played 11 games for them. How much can he provide?

[The Crippler]

5-0...you are wrong on this one. Watch the game again...in the late 3rd quarter and 4th Buck had a huge effort in defending Left-eye. He and George alternated on him throughout this time of the game.

[Murphy3]

I really like George and Buckner off of the bench. And, I have no problem with the Mavs #2 and #3 starters. But, no one else off of the bench does much for me.

I'd like for the Mavs to have a talented scorer off of the bench... maybe at the trading deadline they can acquire someone.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

theyve been successful.

FG% this year:
Fin 38%
Horry 34%
Udrih 36%

Someone said earlier that our bench is below average because everyone is shooting under 40% (which is not quite right. Diop is at 44%)

I wouldn't trade any of our bench for Finley, Horry, or Udrih.

[lakerskobe78]

Wow the Mavs have great defense. I hope that won't be the case today.