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Old 06-12-2009, 12:21 AM   #41
Usually Lurkin
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How can you say it's all about rich v. poor, then go and say it has nothing to do with stereotypes?

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Originally Posted by Underdog View Post
I'm glad it's so simple - I'll keep my guard up around men from now on (my boss might try to shiv me at work tomorrow because he's a man... Numbers don't lie!)
your boss probably has more stuff than you. Maybe he should watch his back!

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I didn't mean that I'm interested in supporting the racial angle of this discussion - I meant that I'm interested in hearing more from the people who were discussing race before you hijacked this thread with your gender angle... At least the gray area of "culture" makes the topic of race more open to discussion and debate (and the issue of wealth is even more fertile...).
"Hijacked?" the gender breakdown is listed before the race breakdown in the original post. I'm sorry if you can't apply your haves v. have-nots voodoo incantation to that part of the discussion, really I am. But like it or not, the thread is about deeper issues behind the gender and racial breakdowns of the most wanted list. I think it's pretty funny that no one is seriously discussing the gender thing - as if all our pat answers really do explain the race ratios ('cause those are economic) And if you don't think the differences between men and women go deeper than the presence or absence of a penis, all I can say is, "good luck with your haves v. have-nots voodoo incantations."

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Old 06-12-2009, 12:46 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin View Post
How can you say it's all about rich v. poor, then go and say it has nothing to do with stereotypes?
Using words like man/woman, rich/poor, black/white isn't stereotyping, but believing those words somehow predict human behavior is...


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Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin View Post
your boss probably has more stuff than you. Maybe he should watch his back!
That's probably why he's always giving me shifty looks and carries a gun in the glove box of his Jaguar...

(but I like how you're still using that small pool of numbers to predict human behavior!)


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Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin View Post
"Hijacked?" the gender breakdown is listed before the race breakdown in the original post. I'm sorry if you can't apply your haves v. have-nots voodoo incantation to that part of the discussion, really I am. But like it or not, the thread is about deeper issues behind the gender and racial breakdowns of the most wanted list. I think it's pretty funny that no one is seriously discussing the gender thing - as if all our pat answers really do explain the race ratios ('cause those are economic) And if you don't think the differences between men and women go deeper than the presence or absence of a penis, all I can say is, "good luck with your haves v. have-nots voodoo incantations."
You do realize my stance on this issue is that both gender & race have less to do with crime than social issues (like wealth or education, as Flaco brought up), don't you? My debate is that the numbers and intent of the original post are bunk, but you can't seem to process what I'm saying because you're still busy looking at the finger instead of what it's pointing at...

Circles... Circles... Circles... (and other "voodoo incantations")
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:46 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Underdog View Post
You do realize my stance on this issue is that both gender & race have less to do with crime than social issues (like wealth or education, as Flaco brought up), don't you? My debate is that the numbers and intent of the original post are bunk, but you can't seem to process what I'm saying because you're still busy looking at the finger instead of what it's pointing at...

Circles... Circles... Circles... (and other "voodoo incantations")
But they don't (have less to do with crime. . . ). Sex of a person is more related to criminality than anything else. If your understanding of motivation does not explain that, then you are missing the biggest part of the picture.

And stop it with these "small numbers" comments, unless you think the sample above is not representative of a population of interest. And if you don't think it is, explain why and cite some better stats. As is, these are the data we are talking about.

And what do you mean with your finger and pointing metaphor???? Are you saying that you are using the disparate male/female ratio to point to SES as a factor? 'cause that makes no sense, especially when you can't say anything about the male/female ratio. It sounds more like you are trying to get us to ignore the broken finger and look elsewhere.
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:24 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Underdog View Post
Haha - I love how you guys have turned a rich/poor issue into a black/white issue...

(keep dancing, puppets!)
I think I said pretty early on that the crime statistics as such are often skewed by the "Golden Rule", therefore much caution must be taken when making inferences from crime stats.

Does that seem like an unreasonable suggestion?
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:30 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by alexamenos View Post
I think I said pretty early on that the crime statistics as such are often skewed by the "Golden Rule", therefore much caution must be taken when making inferences from crime stats.

Does that seem like an unreasonable suggestion?
Doesn't sound unreasonable to me - I'd say that pretty much puts this thread to rest...

(it should have the first time you said it too...)
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:36 AM   #46
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Mavie, the gist, that is the central theme, of my earlier post (and all other posts in this thread, for that matter) was:

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the more general point is that it's pretty easy to pick and choose the crimes in question in such a way as to disproportionately include one segment of society while excluding others. IOW, 'What are the deeper issues?' The deeper issue ain't that deep, it's just definitional.
Could you kindly highlight for me the part of your response where you acknowledge, address and rebut or agree with this position?

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Originally Posted by Mavdog View Post
after wading through the near intolerable level of arrogance contained in your post, the following comes to mind...

first, the reason these scofflaws are on the "most wanted" list is not because they have committed heinous crimes, but just the opposite...they have committed crimes of such minor, insignifigant levels that the authorities don't want to commit the resources to go and find them. if they had committed violent crimes they would have been found and thrown into jail.

notwithstanding the fact that these are indeed criminals, not victims of unfair and inequitable application of the law and their offenses reveal such. is wrong way driving not a crime and an act that endangers the rest of us who travel on the streets? absolutely, and it is indeed class blind. what about assault? check. speeding in a school zone? if my kids go to school where this occured the perpertrator is indeed a criminal, and a dangerous one at that, no matter which ethnicity and what economic class they are in. do you have an idea of the problems associated with being hit by a driver of a car who does not have insurance? to those who have, the person who flaunts this requirement of driving is indeed violating the law and no, this is not a law that is applied inequitably across class or racial lines.

fyi dart does go "from preston along turtle creek", it's just doen't have any park cities people riding on the bus but those who provide services to the park cities homes. and just who is hurt by the fare evasion of those listed? it isn't the people who live in the park cities, it's those who ride the dart bus daily and have to put up with buses that aren't as clean as they could be due to dart not receiving all the fares they should be getting because of people such as those on the list stealing from dart.

the answer to your theoretical date rape question is answered by another question: who is more likely to report and prosecute their being raped, a rich white girl from highland park or a 38 year old unemployed black chick from fair park?
Mavdog shouts, "Eek!!! Anarchist!!!" ....

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yes, your assertions of "IRS agent acting at the behest of an angry mob of registered voters" being analogous to someone "robbing a liquor store" reveals a deep rooted anarchic perspective which quite frankly reveals a lack of "thinking skills".
Perhaps rather than calling me a heretic, you or chum might try to make a rational, cogent argument against the natural law perspective that holding a gun to someone's head and taking their shit is wrong.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:07 AM   #47
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Perhaps rather than calling me a heretic, you or chum might try to make a rational, cogent argument against the natural law perspective that holding a gun to someone's head and taking their shit is wrong.
Of course holding a gun to someone's head and taking their shit is wrong. That is not, however, necessarily what governments do, as you assert. Or rather, if they take your shit then they also give you something back in trade for it. You don't like it, I understand, but it's not at all the same thing.

If a policeman were found to be abusing his authority, I suppose you would endorse getting rid of the police force entirely as the solution to the problem. Then again, if the world operated your way, I guess we wouldn't have a police force to begin with. Because somebody would have to pay for that, and legally we couldn't compel the people to.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:12 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by ray_sir_6 View Post
[url]You consider tax collection a crime? Or "institutionalized looting" as you call it.
Generally speaking, yes. I think there exceptions and shades of gray, but as a rule I think holding a gun to someone and taking their shit is a crime.

(estate taxes is an exception I'm ok with -- taking the wealth of a dead guy is less bad certainly than taking the income from a living guy.....property taxes don't trouble me too much, that land was there before the property right.....corporate income taxes are bearable, what with corporations being a creation of the state in the first place)

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You are using their services, so you have to pay. Yeah, you are forced to use it in alot of cases, but it is still something our society requires to keep it from breaking into utter chaos. You like having police available incase you need them? Or maybe the fire department? What about the military? Maybe you don't directly rely on them, but the chances you will need them in the future are enough to make it a good idea to pay for them.
I don't mean to be rude, but this is very old shit for me....I mean, once-upon-a-time I would have implicitly agreed with you but I've been persuaded otherwise. I've encountered the argument you make in one form or fashion about a gillion times since and I didn't find it terribly persuasive the previous gillion times and I'm not likely to find it persuasive today.

In a nutshell, I think we're basically modern Serfs working for a corporate/government alliance of Lords. The argument you make is basically the same as the argument made for serfdom ('sure the serfs are working their butts off for the man, but they need the man for protection...').

Maybe there's something to your argument that serfdom is good for the serfs, but my position is more like, 'so what if it is?' It's not like we really have a choice in the matter one way or the other.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:19 AM   #49
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it's a nice try and I appreciate the fact that rather than simply making an ad hominem attack (ie, you're wrong because you're an anarchist) you are actually attempting to make a case.

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if they take your shit then they also give you something back in trade for it. You don't like it, I understand, but it's not at all the same thing.
umm...it is too the same thing.

If you screw a woman against her will and then give her a hundred bucks, does that mean she's a prostitute and that you haven't raped her?

If I hold a gun to your head and take your wallet, it doesn't make it ok as long as I give you something you don't want in return. It's the coercive nature of the act that makes it wrong -- it's the subjugation of your inalienable right to decide for yourself what to do with the product of your own labor that makes it wrong.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:36 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin View Post
I'd be happy if you just explained why there are 45 men and 5 women on this list.
from the discussions that I have had with a relative who is an academic active in researching male/female adolescents, it is in the gender development/reinforcement one goes thru as a child.

the female and male are treated differently in their early formative years and due to those stereotype roles set in place the manner in which they act in later years is pretty much set.

iow girls don't act the same as boys, girls are programmed at an early age to be less aggressive and that is why girls are less likely to make the decision to act as predators/criminals.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:51 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by alexamenos View Post
Mavie, the gist, that is the central theme, of my earlier post (and all other posts in this thread, for that matter) was:
Could you kindly highlight for me the part of your response where you acknowledge, address and rebut or agree with this position?
easy, these acts are not subject to being merely "definitial", there isn't a situation of if the offenses are or are not truly crimes, as pointed out it's really easy to see that these folks (as wellas the rest of the convicted criminals in the stats supplied) are just plain criminals who have acted violently to other citizens, or are guilty of stealing from other citizens or endangered other citizens by way of their actions.

these are not people whio have evaded taxes, or resisted the draft, or other civil disobedience offenses that could in any way be categorized as based on moral principles.

iow these are just plain thugs who want to disregard and shoot the finger at the moral covenant that exists between civilized people.

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Perhaps rather than calling me a heretic, you or chum might try to make a rational, cogent argument against the natural law perspective that holding a gun to someone's head and taking their shit is wrong.
no need to, your attempting to argue a theoretical approach to a simple issue of individuals who act in opposition to civilized norms. they didn't hold a gun and take shit, as I pointed out for many of their offenses they took actions which placed other citizens in harm's way.
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Old 06-12-2009, 12:59 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by alexamenos View Post
If I hold a gun to your head and take your wallet, it doesn't make it ok as long as I give you something you don't want in return. It's the coercive nature of the act that makes it wrong -- it's the subjugation of your inalienable right to decide for yourself what to do with the product of your own labor that makes it wrong.
Two things. One, I don't think we are talking, on the whole, about things taxpayers don't want. Of course there are some items the taxpayers don't want, and if you want to restrict the discussion to those items, then that's another story. But then, how do we figure out what those are? One person might think another library or another fire station is something undesirable, while his neighbor may be all for it. But again, I think we are primarily talking about things that we DO want as a society. You know, the things we have that third world countries don't.

Two, I think your viewpoint is too narrow when you talk about "the product of your own labor." For a handful of people, maybe. If you live on a farm and sustain yourself with your own land, maybe. But the great majority of us make a living that is supported by far, far more than the product of our own labor. Rather, it's a product of our own labor and the infrastructure that gives rise to the very opportunity for that labor to occur. The guy who works at the auto factory is going to have a hard time figuring out what to do with the product of his own labor once the factory closes and the job vanishes.

I just feel that it's unrealistic to think that we would, or even could, enjoy the same quality of life we do now if everyone kept all their own income and we abolished government altogether.
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Old 06-15-2009, 08:46 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by chumdawg View Post
Of course there are some items the taxpayers don't want, and if you want to restrict the discussion to those items, then that's another story. But then, how do we figure out what those are?
It's actually very, very easy to figure out what these things are.

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I just feel that it's unrealistic to think that we would, or even could, enjoy the same quality of life we do now if everyone kept all their own income and we abolished government altogether.
I've never advocated either of these things.
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Old 06-15-2009, 12:57 PM   #54
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What is the difference in a Freedom Fighter, and a Terrorist? which side of conflict you are on.

What is the difference in paying protection money to the government or protection money to the mob? which side of the conflict you are on.

and in the immortal words of Monty Python -- it's good to be the King.

How about -- he who has the gold, makes the rules.

To the victor belong the spoils................???
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