The NBA better watch out for the Rox - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

derrick · 11-30-2005, 02:27 PM

I know everybody thinks the Rockets are done, but I beg to differ. Only 3 of the 11 losses they have have been by a margain of over 10 points. With that being said, if TMac WERE in the lineup, do you really think they would have lost these games. I mean, even if he would not have scored, just his pressence on the court would have created easier shots for everyone else.

I think we should wait until the AllStar break to see how these offseasonmoves will pan out for the Rox. Ming has played decently well. I think he has been pretty good. He is not a go to player. He is not a superstar. But who said he would be? Us, the fans. Yao has been having a hard time scoring becasue teams are putting a player in front of him and behind him. THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN WITH TRACY IN THE LINEUP. I'm telling you h\guys, we really need to watch out for the Rox. They are about to take off. I'm really concerned about them....

u2sarajevo · 11-30-2005, 02:34 PM

What is that smell?

It smells like a Rockets fan trying to play a concerned Mavericks fan.

Anyone else smell that?

I'm not scared. Yes they will be much better with T-Mac. Anyone that disagrees didn't watch the first round last year, nor paid any attention to them this year. But I'm not scared of them. And I doubt the Mavericks would take them lightly given that they played them in a tight seven game series in Round 1 last year.

DubOverdose · 11-30-2005, 03:13 PM

What are they? 7 games behind us? They have a lot of catching up to do before you talk about them making the playoffs. Heck, ATLANTA won two games in a row and has kept games close. They also have more (as in number of, not quality) talented players than the Rockets. Should we worry about them 'taking off?' They have to prove they can compete in the regular season before we even talk about them making noise in the playoffs. This could be a prime time for the Rockets to make up ground with Josh and Stackhouse out, but a 4 win team doesn't scare me. TMac might have had great games in the playoffs last season, but he proved he's not a winner yet again. Once the Mavs took the Rockets seriously (as in the 3rd game) the Mavs went 4-1 on the Rockets, winning 3 games on the Rox court. If you expect a team to make noise in the playoffs, they gotta do better than falling apart after the second game in the playoffs. Besides, Dirk was sick last year in the playoffs, if you are banking on that happening again, you'll be screwed come playoff time this season.

aexchange · 11-30-2005, 03:21 PM

ThE RoCkEtZz RulEe!~!!

YuR MoMmA.

RoCkEtS. ArE. Da. SuCK.

DubOverdose · 11-30-2005, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aexchange

ThE RoCkEtZz RulEe!~!!

YuR MoMmA.

RoCkEtS. ArE. Da. SuCK.

translation:
t3h rox r t3h l33t t33m!!! rox roxorz!
rox r t3h suxor

u2sarajevo · 11-30-2005, 03:25 PM

I feel old.

derrick · 11-30-2005, 03:34 PM

not a rockets fan... just a concerened mavs fan. I know Tmac hasn't provn that he is a winner... but neither has Dirk. Yes we got out of the first round last year, but we still have the same high scoring, no defense mentality that we had last year. You guys heard barkley and Co.... "Dallas is a team built for the regular season". Houstonwill be in the playoffs. We can't count on Jt hitting a game winning shot every time. We need to play defense. the rockets do play defense. we will see come playoff time.

u2sarajevo · 11-30-2005, 03:38 PM

Oh... I see your problem dude......

Don't ever listen to Barkley and take anything he says about the Mavericks seriously.

Case closed.

Five-ofan · 11-30-2005, 03:38 PM

You are clearly not a mavs fan. We have a high scoring no D mentality??? Go watch some mavs games and then come back. Who the NBA needs to watch out for is Dwight effin Howard. He is averaging about 15 and 15 in the last 8 games at the age of 19. He is a BEAST.

DubOverdose · 11-30-2005, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derrick

not a rockets fan... just a concerened mavs fan. I know Tmac hasn't provn that he is a winner... but neither has Dirk. Yes we got out of the first round last year, but we still have the same high scoring, no defense mentality that we had last year. You guys heard barkley and Co.... "Dallas is a team built for the regular season". Houstonwill be in the playoffs. We can't count on Jt hitting a game winning shot every time. We need to play defense. the rockets do play defense. we will see come playoff time.

Dirk took a team to the WCF. TMac hasn't even won a first round playoff series.

DubOverdose · 11-30-2005, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

You are clearly not a mavs fan. We have a high scoring no D mentality??? Go watch some mavs games and then come back. Who the NBA needs to watch out for is Dwight effin Howard. He is averaging about 15 and 15 in the last 8 games at the age of 19. He is a BEAST.

I know LeBron has amazing stats and all and he is supposed to be the best player of all time....BUT! Dwight is my underdog pick to be the best player in the league in a few years. The guy is a beast and so young. I feel that if he were on a team centered around him, he would be 22 and 15 no problem and still with a huge ceiling.

Five-ofan · 11-30-2005, 05:15 PM

Unfortunately Howard plays with Francis so it will take a little bit before we see his full potential but he is already a great defender to go with a solid post game and unbelievable athletecism. I think he will be Olajuwon to Bron's Jordan if you are looking for a comparison. I know they arent the same player and im not trying to say that but thats the comparison I see. Howard had 3 fga in a game last week. That is ridiculous. Yes he had 12 ftas so he probably actually shot 9 times but good lord.

dude1394 · 11-30-2005, 06:05 PM

Rockets better watch out for the grizzlies, they are going to kick their rear ends all year long.

Mavs too of course.

dude1394 · 11-30-2005, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubOverdose

Dirk took a team to the WCF. TMac hasn't even won a first round playoff series.

Not to mention he was spotted 2-0 on the other teams home court and still couldn't pull it off. All the while having another all-star on the team. The GREAT one Yao MING.... Go sell that junk in houston, they'll buy it.

Rhylan · 11-30-2005, 10:37 PM

The Rockets are this year's media darling, which is to their detriment. At this point I think Van Gundy is the best thing they have going for them. T-mac has had injury issues on top of the stuff already mentioned in this thread. He's a great player.. but that alone doesn't put him in any higher standing than any of the other great players in the league, including Dirk.

And.. How many more years do we have to hear about Yao getting tired? The guy is 25. Getting tired should be the last of his issues. Yeah, he's huge, but he also has to take less steps than anyone else to run 94 feet.

I don't recall hearing 4 years of whinign about Mutombo, Rik Smits, or even Shawn Bradley getting winded. Being slow, yes, but getting winded? No. Yao is one-of-a-kind, but something has to change there if the Rockets are going to be as good as ESPN/TNT/whoever wants them to be.

chumdawg · 11-30-2005, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubOverdose

Dirk took a team to the WCF. TMac hasn't even won a first round playoff series.

I'm not trying to be snippy here, and I'm also not trying necessarily to say anything about Dirk in specific, but honestly, did Dirk do anything more in taking his team to the WCF than TMac did in losing that first round series last year?

My goodness, the man was unbelievable in that series. When you consider what he did on offense in light of the work he was doing on defense...well, I just don't know if I have ever seen such an impressive single series from a player. TMac amazed me last year.

He's never been on a team anywhere near as good as Dirk's '03 team. It's probably a pretty safe bet that if Dirk and TMac had switched teams last year, TMac would have been the one advancing. Doncha think?

AnMan21 · 11-30-2005, 11:22 PM

the rockets are one game over .500 with tmac in the lineup - yes it's early, but like i pointed out in a different thread, when he's on the court the rest of the rockets just stand around and watch.....hell, they have the best seats in the house to do so, but unfortunately for them it makes them pretty easy to guard and tough for them to get open looks. if the rest of that team won't get off their asses and try to help mcgrady out, even he won't be able to carry them much over .500.

on the side note: i agree with chum here - not trying to take anything away from dirk, but tmac did everything he possibly could to get the rockets out of the first round. trying to make a case closed argument by saying dirk took his team to the wcf and tmac can't get out of the first round is just unfair. the guy has consistently been the unquestioned leader surrounded by second tier talent. that has hardly been dirk's situation.

Ninkobei · 11-30-2005, 11:24 PM

There's a fine line between a good team and a great team. I think it's safe to say that both Dallas and Houston (when fully healthy) are right on the line. Don't count Houston out yet- they're more or less the same team they were last year. In the playoffs last year, If it hadn't been for the amazing last effort comeback of the mavs, I think Houston would have advanced to San Antonio. Face it guys, Dallas got Flucky. The series could have gone either way with as little as one missed shot. On a side not, I don't expect Dallas to put itself in the must-win situation it did last year in the playoffs- at least not until they play the Spurs ;D

grndmstr_c · 11-30-2005, 11:52 PM

From my perspective, Houston was the team that got lucky by catching a Dallas squad with their best player in a major slump at the same time that their best player was playing about as well as he's capable of (at least early in the series). I still believe if you play that series 100 times the average result would be a well-contested but comfortable 4-2 victory for the Mavs.

As for this year, we'll see. I'm not sold on Alston, Swift is what he is, an athlete and not much more, and they've got a number of other guys they're counting on to play meaningful minutes who are getting up there in years (Wesley, Barry, Mutombo, Howard). Mutombo, in particular, hasn't been close to the game-changing backup center he was a year ago thus far. Barry's production is down as well. Those two, along with James and Padgett, comprised the top four +/- guys on their roster during the regular season last year, and James, Deke, and Barry were the only three guys on their roster with a positive on-court +/- in the series against the Mavs.

Five-ofan · 11-30-2005, 11:54 PM

The reason it was that close, was that they were insanely hot at the begining of that series. There was no way it was gonna keep up. As to talent around him. You can make a dang nice case for the talent that Mcgrady has had around him. Vinsanity is better than anyone dirk has ever played with, yes that includes steve, Ming is better than any big that Dirk has ever played with. Yes the mavs have more overall talent but they have a better second best player. That said give me dirk. Dirk has NOT been out of the first round once in the past 5 years. Its not like the mavs had one flukey run. They consistently get out of the first round.

DubOverdose · 12-01-2005, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I'm not trying to be snippy here, and I'm also not trying necessarily to say anything about Dirk in specific, but honestly, did Dirk do anything more in taking his team to the WCF than TMac did in losing that first round series last year?

My goodness, the man was unbelievable in that series. When you consider what he did on offense in light of the work he was doing on defense...well, I just don't know if I have ever seen such an impressive single series from a player. TMac amazed me last year.

He's never been on a team anywhere near as good as Dirk's '03 team. It's probably a pretty safe bet that if Dirk and TMac had switched teams last year, TMac would have been the one advancing. Doncha think?

Yes, TMac did have an amazing series. Fact is though, when your team is up 2-0 and you can't finish out the series, something is wrong. Dirk was really sick and couldn't hit a thing or do much on the court during that series. A 'winner' knows how to finish that series off. A winner can get his team motivated and light a fire under players asses. If you are considered a top 5 player, MVP candidate, you're having an amazing series stat-wise, you sure as hell better be able to finish off a team when you are up 2-0 and their best player is slumping. Simple as that. The Rockets made it in as the 5th seed and fell apart after game 2 and I blame much of that on TMac, regardless on how well he played statistically. Wasn't TMac up 3-0 in a series once and lost it as well? The guy is a loser no matter how you look at it. He has to pull his team through when their season is on the line and the guy just can't do it. You can say 'one man can't win a series, a team has to' all you want, but Yao had an awesome series. We had no answer for him. That team has two all stars, we have one...and he was slumping/sick. There's flat out no excuse for TMac to lose that series. If that doesn't mean he's a loser, then what qualifies a player as a loser?

sike · 12-01-2005, 01:13 AM

welcome to the jungle Derrick

chumdawg · 12-01-2005, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubOverdose

Yes, TMac did have an amazing series. Fact is though, when your team is up 2-0 and you can't finish out the series, something is wrong. Dirk was really sick and couldn't hit a thing or do much on the court during that series. A 'winner' knows how to finish that series off. A winner can get his team motivated and light a fire under players asses. If you are considered a top 5 player, MVP candidate, you're having an amazing series stat-wise, you sure as hell better be able to finish off a team when you are up 2-0 and their best player is slumping. Simple as that. The Rockets made it in as the 5th seed and fell apart after game 2 and I blame much of that on TMac, regardless on how well he played statistically. Wasn't TMac up 3-0 in a series once and lost it as well? The guy is a loser no matter how you look at it. He has to pull his team through when their season is on the line and the guy just can't do it. You can say 'one man can't win a series, a team has to' all you want, but Yao had an awesome series. We had no answer for him. That team has two all stars, we have one...and he was slumping/sick. There's flat out no excuse for TMac to lose that series. If that doesn't mean he's a loser, then what qualifies a player as a loser?

With respect, Dub, your characterization of that series does not match mine. Yours seems (to me, at least) to suggest that the Rockets were somehow gifted the first two and should thus have been able to close it out on the basis of being up 2-0 alone. I disagree.

The Rockets were up 2-0 because that freakin' superstar Tracy McGrady willed them to that. The Mavericks were a DAMN good team last year. For my money, they were 1B in the Western conference. I had the Spurs at 1A, the Mavs at 1B, and the Suns at 1C. That's how I ranked them. I thought the Mavs had a nice shot at the Spurs, and I worried about their matchup with the Suns. But that was a tremendously good Mavs team. It was better than Houston.

But Houston got up 2-0, thanks to McGrady. And then the tiger fought back. Which is to be expected. Then the rightful team won the series. But damn, man, TMac gave the Mavs all they wanted and THEN some.

Look, I don't know about that 3-0 lead. I didn't watch that series. But I know that TMac was BY FAR the best player on the floor in that series the two teams played last year. BY FAR. I know a little something about statistics, and about logic, and on that basis I feel that you are making a mistake in labeling McGrady a loser based on those two series. The only impression I had coming out of that series last year is that McGrady is a winner of the highest order--as high as anyone currently playing in this league--and that the rest of his team simply wasn't good enough to compete with the elite.

Five-ofan · 12-01-2005, 02:02 AM

Chum i have to disagree. They were up because they were hitting 70% of their 3s. Yes mcgrady played great but to be what you are making them out to be, he should have been able to will them to winning 2 of 5 games with 3 of them at home. He couldnt. He was up 3-1 not 3-0 and it was against the pistons several years ago. He even said how he enjoyed finally being in the second round. I love tmac. He is awesome. He is not better than Dirk. He was better in 1 series. That doesnt make him the better player.

chumdawg · 12-01-2005, 02:32 AM

Given that he and Dirk squared off once, and he got the better of it, I suppose that if anyone has the claim to being a better player it is TMac so far.

But it's all so silly. Of course they are both all-world players. My only beef is with those who would somehow diminish TMac. For my money, TMac is every bit the player Dirk is. Maybe one or the other is better, maybe not. But put their names in a hat and I'll take either.

You simply can't go wrong!

alby · 12-01-2005, 02:40 AM

Not only did Tmac lose ANOTHER playoff series last year, after being up 2-0, he lost from being up 3-1 as well. Face it, this guy is not a winner.

Five-ofan · 12-01-2005, 02:40 AM

I can live with that. Tie goes to the 7fter though. Even though dirk doesnt play like one.

DubOverdose · 12-01-2005, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

With respect, Dub, your characterization of that series does not match mine. Yours seems (to me, at least) to suggest that the Rockets were somehow gifted the first two and should thus have been able to close it out on the basis of being up 2-0 alone. I disagree.

The Rockets were up 2-0 because that freakin' superstar Tracy McGrady willed them to that. The Mavericks were a DAMN good team last year. For my money, they were 1B in the Western conference. I had the Spurs at 1A, the Mavs at 1B, and the Suns at 1C. That's how I ranked them. I thought the Mavs had a nice shot at the Spurs, and I worried about their matchup with the Suns. But that was a tremendously good Mavs team. It was better than Houston.

But Houston got up 2-0, thanks to McGrady. And then the tiger fought back. Which is to be expected. Then the rightful team won the series. But damn, man, TMac gave the Mavs all they wanted and THEN some.

Look, I don't know about that 3-0 lead. I didn't watch that series. But I know that TMac was BY FAR the best player on the floor in that series the two teams played last year. BY FAR. I know a little something about statistics, and about logic, and on that basis I feel that you are making a mistake in labeling McGrady a loser based on those two series. The only impression I had coming out of that series last year is that McGrady is a winner of the highest order--as high as anyone currently playing in this league--and that the rest of his team simply wasn't good enough to compete with the elite.

Yes we were a very good team last year. We had a lot of momentum going in to the playoffs, but that all went away the first game. We didn't come out looking to win, and the Rockets did. History tells us that most teams can finish off a team when they are up 2-0. I'd compare it to being up by 20pts when the 4th quarter starts...you should have the killer instinct and not let the other team back in the game. Houston did let us back in, and TMac is the leader of that team. If Dirk were up 2-0 in this series, and then we lost it, every media source in America would put the full blame on Dirk, as well as himself. Everyone would call Dirk a loser. Maybe its because he's white, maybe it would be right if he lost in the first round. I consider KG a loser too if that's any consolation for you. A player that can do everything like he can should be able to get his team out of the first round without the help of 2 other allstars and a stacked bench. If people compare KG to TD, they are missing the whole winning aspect of their careers.

alby · 12-01-2005, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubOverdose

Yes we were a very good team last year. We had a lot of momentum going in to the playoffs, but that all went away the first game. We didn't come out looking to win, and the Rockets did. History tells us that most teams can finish off a team when they are up 2-0. I'd compare it to being up by 20pts when the 4th quarter starts...you should have the killer instinct and not let the other team back in the game. Houston did let us back in, and TMac is the leader of that team. If Dirk were up 2-0 in this series, and then we lost it, every media source in America would put the full blame on Dirk, as well as himself. Everyone would call Dirk a loser. Maybe its because he's white, maybe it would be right if he lost in the first round. I consider KG a loser too if that's any consolation for you. A player that can do everything like he can should be able to get his team out of the first round without the help of 2 other allstars and a stacked bench. If people compare KG to TD, they are missing the whole winning aspect of their careers.

rep points from me.

derrick · 12-02-2005, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

From my perspective, Houston was the team that got lucky by catching a Dallas squad with their best player in a major slump at the same time that their best player was playing about as well as he's capable of (at least early in the series). I still believe if you play that series 100 times the average result would be a well-contested but comfortable 4-2 victory for the Mavs.

As for this year, we'll see. I'm not sold on Alston, Swift is what he is, an athlete and not much more, and they've got a number of other guys they're counting on to play meaningful minutes who are getting up there in years (Wesley, Barry, Mutombo, Howard). Mutombo, in particular, hasn't been close to the game-changing backup center he was a year ago thus far. Barry's production is down as well. Those two, along with James and Padgett, comprised the top four +/- guys on their roster during the regular season last year, and James, Deke, and Barry were the only three guys on their roster with a positive on-court +/- in the series against the Mavs.

I don't know. i thought the mavs were in a better position to win the series before it even started. I mean, Stack shot over Wesley all day. Dirk was pretty much free to do whatever. We have to realize that Houston didn;t have JHoward. He is a real good midrange shooter. i think we caught a break because if he were playing, the series would have changed.

Five-ofan · 12-02-2005, 02:56 PM

Jhoward being out help them. He cant guard his own shadow. He was guarding dirk when dirk went for 53.

Milles · 12-03-2005, 09:47 PM

Just looked at the box score for the Grizzlies/Rockets game ...

3rd Q .. 9min left to play .. 56/31

Only one Rocket has more than 1 fg, that has to be a misprint, Yao is 7/14

That is impossible, right?

alby · 12-04-2005, 01:24 AM

The NBA better watch out for the Rox

they certainly showed that tonight
26 points in the first half

dude1394 · 12-04-2005, 02:00 AM

Rox had 3 days rest and memphis was coming off a back-to-back. If you can't be competitive in that scenario, you are not an official NBA team.

Now....I'm still curious how JVG (or either Gundy to be honest) gets such a pass. The rockets without McGrady were the worst team in the league. VG couldn't even get them competitive, not nearly as competitive as the Toronto Raptors.

I just don't understand the love fest for that guy. Aren't these HIS players after all that are stinking the place up?

The Rox boards ARE talking about some sort of change by Tuesday and that the players knew it and that's why they stunk it up so bad tonight. And the guy stating it supposedly has inside poop.

One of the names getting tossed around is Big Don Nelson. Wouldnt' that be a hoot in some respects. First Steve, then Fin, then Don coming back on cubes. Although if Nelson did this he would be somewhat of an jerk.

chumdawg · 12-04-2005, 02:14 AM

You have got to be kidding me. Right?

dude1394 · 12-04-2005, 02:25 AM

Well it is a message board so there is a bunch of crude. But the link is
http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=105395

The guy who posted it seems to be believed by most of the posters there as having inside scoop...The Don Nelson thing was tossed out by a poster, so I put it in, it was funny..

Milles · 12-04-2005, 02:43 AM

Can't get on the site, they want you to pay for the privilege of registering.

dirno2000 · 12-04-2005, 03:03 AM

As bad as things look, they're still 10th in the league in defensive efficiency and 3rd in defensive fg%. Van Gundy's teams always defend so they're going to be in a lot of games. If they can get Rafer healthy and get last year's T-Mac, it wouldn’t surprise me to see them go on an extended run like they did last year . They won't win the West because nobody is going to do that by going on the road for three straight series, but they'll be a pain in someone's ass come May.

It’s also worth noting that according to the USA Today’s statistical power rankings, they’ve played the toughest schedule in the league to this point.

chumdawg · 12-04-2005, 03:08 AM

You would think there is precedent for a team winning the West by going three straight series on the road...except to hear you tell it...

I see no reason to dismiss the Rockets so summarily.

dude1394 · 12-04-2005, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milles

Can't get on the site, they want you to pay for the privilege of registering.

Hmmm...I didn't pay anything, maybe I got on it years ago or something.

However someone copied the post to another board and I expect about the same conversations will occur.

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtop...1d1600b98cd81f